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<xiangfu>
I can apply that after several month later. :(
<lindi->
xiangfu: the nagios and lighttpd examples might match your scenario ^
<xiangfu>
yes. I just trigger the build.
<lindi->
xiangfu: don't let that slow you down, if you package useful software and do it well it is usually easy to get somebody to sponsor it
<lindi->
xiangfu: mostly people have problems finding sponsors when they package something totally esoteric with zero users
<xiangfu>
yes. I tried to ask help in [Debian Electronics Packaging Team] but no one reply me. I am working on fpgatools and toped.
<xiangfu>
which si all about electronics. :-)
<xiangfu>
the toped upstream authors already use toped libs in their chip design.
<xiangfu>
btw: Fedora already include toped
<lindi->
xiangfu: team mailing lists are bit difficult since nobody feels like taking the responsibility :/
<xiangfu>
lindi-: too many details on debian packaging :)
<lindi->
xiangfu: toped looks ok to me, fpgatools is probably not ready to be included in debian in current state however?
<lindi->
xiangfu: for me the most confusing part was how git is used with debian packaging in some teams
<wolfspraul>
lindi-: just for functionality, in today's state fpgatools can absolutely be used to program (one particular) fpga chip, the xc6slx9
<wolfspraul>
versioning wise, it's 0.01 :-)
<lindi->
wolfspraul: yes it's great but not for the masses yet :)
<wolfspraul>
sure, and never will be
<wolfspraul>
what is the goal?
<wolfspraul>
we need to find more exotic tools/libs that are included as a proof that it is worthy of inclusion? :-)
<lindi->
wolfspraul: heh
<wolfspraul>
it works today, and is the most advanced free tool to program that kind of chip
<wolfspraul>
by far, since I am not aware of anything even close
<lindi->
wolfspraul: well personally I try to only upload stuff that I have tested. would need to buy that chip first :)
<wolfspraul>
ah ok, that makes sense
<wolfspraul>
that's at least a strong argument :-)
<lekernel>
hi wolfspraul
<wolfspraul>
actually I don't care that much whether there are strong reasons or not for inclusion or not
<lindi->
wolfspraul: but don't take this wrong, we have a growing fan group in our monthly free software meetings
<wolfspraul>
I'm definitely not going to spend time arguing about that. BUT ... I am very much interested in quality feedback that helps improving the tool
<lindi->
wolfspraul: in fact, next thursday we are probably going to browse your git log at least briefly
<wolfspraul>
and that's why I like the process of Debianization
<lindi->
I guess if I had time to play with it I could buy the chip and learn to use it
<wolfspraul>
so the argument "I can only talk about things I use" makes 100% sense to me
<wolfspraul>
the argument "it's not ready" not so much
<lekernel>
wolfspraul, did you get my email about JTAG pods?
<lindi->
wolfspraul: yeah I don't know how functional fpgatools is, I understood the led blinking example was done just last year
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that's about as far as it gets
<wolfspraul>
but keep in mind - it's a library
<wolfspraul>
I am working on making the library more capable, but it's still and for the time being will be a -dev thing
<wolfspraul>
like a programming language
<wolfspraul>
so when is a programming language "ready"?
<lindi->
wolfspraul: good question :)
<wolfspraul>
I'd say when the syntax is kind of stable, makes sense, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so I rather work on better documentation, more entry points, more examples, etc.
<whitequark>
wolfspraul: no no no no, don't bring your flaky measures of my perfect syntax here :D
<wolfspraul>
that I will do, on my own. plus things from feedback that 'make sense' to me
<lindi->
wolfspraul: yeah please don't take me wrong
<wolfspraul>
but as for 'when it's ready' - you need to define that
<wolfspraul>
no, I totally don't. I appreciate your feedback!
<wolfspraul>
it's an obscure exotic thing, for sure
<wolfspraul>
but it needs to be by definition, the only way out of obscurity is the very path we are on now
<wolfspraul>
including your very correct observations
<wolfspraul>
I would version it 0.01 today, for sure
<wolfspraul>
in good old humble foss style
<whitequark>
wolfspraul: on the serious side; I'm not sure if it is a good idea to bring young software to Debian
<lindi->
I have some fpga-knowledgeable friends, if I could get them play with that chip maybe they could help
<whitequark>
it then tends to stick around in very obsolete version
<whitequark>
just my 2¢
<xiangfu>
lindi-: --libdir works fine. uploading...
<lindi->
xiangfu: did you run lintian before upload? ;)
<lindi->
whitequark: yeah especially if it is easy to compile from git
<lindi->
whitequark: however, we can upload it debian but never release it as part of any stable release
<wolfspraul>
lindi-: if you follow sources, there's not that much going on lately
<wolfspraul>
I am slowly digging away at the distributed memory stuff lately, filling in bits and pieces everywhere
<wolfspraul>
maybe another week or two in dist-mem
<wolfspraul>
after that, another big block, will be block memory
<wolfspraul>
that will be at least 1 month or so, LOTS of pieces there, for sure
<wolfspraul>
after that some more infrastructure to improve programmability, more simple routing etc.
<wolfspraul>
better examples
<wolfspraul>
then I want to start with a small core, J1
<wolfspraul>
I will try whether it makes sense to program the chip via a llvm backend
<wolfspraul>
that's roughly what you can expect in the next few months
<wolfspraul>
but progress is slower now mostly because I am dealing with the effects of a growing codebase, so it gets harder to make changes
<lindi->
whitequark: I have done work with LLVM but mostly with IR encoding
<wolfspraul>
but good news is that I'm not doing this the first time, and I think so far the codebase remains manageable and valuable for the changes I need to apply as I'm going forward
<wolfspraul>
that doesn't rule out a complete rewrite one day though, maybe when I switch to artix-7 (totally not on the radar right now)
<wolfspraul>
so much just as background noise if you check the sources again :-)
<xiangfu>
lindi-: you can take a look when you have time.
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: no sorry, I don't have those pods right now
<wolfspraul>
lindi-: please keep the fpgatools feedback coming
<lekernel>
wolfspraul, who has them?
<wolfspraul>
if you want hw to play with, maybe we can build some little something for you :-)
<lekernel>
Adam?
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (old stuff stays round forever) i think that's a very good point, especially in this case where still lots of interface changes are likely
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think getting it into debian should be an extremely low if not negative priority at the moment. since it's a library, any users will have to know how to compile things anyway, and there are no applications that depend on it. so having it in debian give you very little practical value.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: however, what still seems to be missing is to get the word out. get people to experiment with it, provide feedback. that way, you can stabilize the interfaces.
<lindi->
wpwrak: yep you need to reach the people who have the chip or who want to buy it
<wolfspraul>
it's a programming language, it will always stay like this
<wolfspraul>
if someone wants to make use of it, they will find it
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: naw, what you have now is a very low-level interface. when other things may be layered on top. and you may want to spread out at the bottom too, for example to different chip sizes or different chip generations.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how you package all this is a largely orthogonal problem
<wpwrak>
lindi-: exactly. there has to be a board people can go and buy. can be custom made or something that already exists. but there must be an easy way that also leads through the integration quagmire.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and of course, documentation :) seems that you're working on that. i wish i could help there, but i'm running out of time :-(
<wpwrak>
so the items needed for success are 1) a cute demo to catch people, 2) documentation to give them an idea of what to expect, 3) a board they can get easily, for their own experiments, 4) documentation to tell them how to use the library/language, 5) a reasonably simple way to generate and run their "hello world"
<wpwrak>
of course, 4) should not only be about the syntax but also the semantics. e.g., with a brief overview of the FPGA organization and the structures things refer to. part of that could be taken from xilinx (or other) documentation, but it may be helpful to have at least an overview, so that people don't have to jump around among dozens of documents
<wpwrak>
regarding the hw, if you choose to make a custom board, then, well, you have to make that and produce a number of them. or find someone who will produce them.
<wpwrak>
if you choose to use an off-the-shelf board, then you may need to adapt the library for its chip, and test the critter. in the process, also integration of the tools needed to operate the board will happen
<wpwrak>
you can also try a multi-stage approach: just make a demo and dump whatever you have, then hope that someone else picks up tasks like finding/making hardware for it
<wpwrak>
that's a risky approach, though, since we already know that people are very reluctant to get involved at such tasks. also, this will unavoidably cause a longer delay between first demo and actual hardware, so you'll not be able to "ride the hype"
<wolfspraul>
no no :-) my plan is entirely different. if someone wants to use this for anything, they need to drive the use cases forward
<wolfspraul>
some things are on the slow cooker, this one will slow-cook...
<wpwrak>
how do you expect anyone who could drive it forward to find it ? right now, you're reaching basically a small group of hobbyists who can't commit to any effort of that scale
<wpwrak>
(even though they may be able to contribute a lot with time, a piece at a time)
<lindi->
if we got one such chip to our hacklab and a hello world I'm sure we might get some contributors :)
<lekernel>
wolfspraul, ping
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