<unclouded>
lunavorax: are you set on using C to program with?  There are scripting languages such as Python, Ruby and Lua that are easier to actually program on the NanoNote itself
<bartbes>
xiangfu: so, how's your connection? :P
<xiangfu>
bartbes: it's my awesome windows manager problem. :(.
<mstevens>
I should reflash my nanonote and see if there's new hotness
<bartbes_>
vps went down :'(
<pwp>
Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that quemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?
<pwp>
qemu, rather*
<pwp>
Is anyone on here?
<pwp>
Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that qemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?
<xiangfu>
pwp: Hi. I am not sure about qemu-mips.
<xiangfu>
pwp: what software you want port ?? :)
<pwp>
Um... not sure, just some Free Software games.
<pwp>
Not sure of anything specific.
<bartbes>
I tried qemu-mipsel a few times
<bartbes>
but in the end it always missed a file
<xiangfu>
pwp: ok.
<bartbes>
the bios the last time I tried
<xiangfu>
bartbes: I think we should create a wiki page about qemu-*
<pwp>
What do you bartbes? It didn't read a file on the image that was there?
<bartbes>
no it missed some bios image
<pwp>
Interesting... was it the qemu bios or the Ben Nanonote? (Sorry, the only emulator I am really familiar with is bochs.)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: not very useful, though, imho
<kristianpaul>
yes i know
<kristianpaul>
but i got 10
<kristianpaul>
i need put something to some day...
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i'm sure they make nice paperweights :)
<kristianpaul>
:/
<kristianpaul>
i have the avr16 chips i'll try some basic stuff
<kristianpaul>
if i got chatting i will be happy :)
<wpwrak>
i'm trying to do the same with ieee 802.15.4
<kristianpaul>
oh
<kristianpaul>
but thats for more than simple chatting i think
<wpwrak>
project ben-wpan. already designed a prototype circuit. now, once the darn flu goes away, i can actually build it
<kristianpaul>
audio for examples
<kristianpaul>
great !
<wpwrak>
naw, it just sends packets :)
<wpwrak>
you put whatever you want inside
<wpwrak>
even IPv6 is a possibility
<kristianpaul>
i just buyed this Rf stuff for fun also was cheap (initially)
<kristianpaul>
yeah
<wpwrak>
(6LoWPAN)
<kristianpaul>
thats powerfull !
<kristianpaul>
thats why i just want chat/ircing with this things
<kristianpaul>
no more
<kristianpaul>
:)
<kristianpaul>
irc (not tcp/ip way)
<wpwrak>
the problem with 433 MHz is that regluations are pretty mean on it. e.g., you can't output a decent amount of power for continuous transmission
<kristianpaul>
:p
<wpwrak>
irc would already be too continuous
<kristianpaul>
what they limit=
<kristianpaul>
?
<wpwrak>
to be compliant, e.g., with FCC, you can only send a few messages within an hour
<kristianpaul>
power ?
<kristianpaul>
what??
<kristianpaul>
ohh i dint knew that part
<kristianpaul>
last*
<wpwrak>
you can choose :) eiher good power but very very low duty cycle. or unusably low power but no duty cycle restriction
<wpwrak>
ti have some compliance document ... lemme see if i can find it again ...
<kristianpaul>
how many bits per hour?
<kristianpaul>
plesae
<kristianpaul>
i tought limitation was just power
<wpwrak>
on 433 mhz it's both. or rather either or. but the unrestricted power is basically below the noise floor.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: wpwrak has a very German approach to regulation :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: he just doesn't like to give customs an excuse for causing trouble :)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: how is that, o dont understand the point?
<kristianpaul>
should i read about germany first?
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: I was just kidding.
<wolfspraul>
yes, maybe :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: wolfgang suggests the south american approach to regulations :)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
and Chinese
<kristianpaul>
:D
<wolfspraul>
and Arab
<wolfspraul>
and ...
<wolfspraul>
no Werner has good points
<kristianpaul>
oh i see the point now ;)
<wpwrak>
it's kinda the same as with patents. you can get away with a number of things, but you shouldn't rely on being able to do so forever. particularly if you're commercially successful :)
<wolfspraul>
yes, but maybe that's a universal truth. the more money you have, the more people are attracted to it.
<wpwrak>
true, yes. you just don't have to make it too easy for them :)
<wolfspraul>
these guys that just successfully squeezed 200 million USD out of Microsoft are now going after the next batch of companies with their trivial crap patents (I didn't read them and I won't, but I'd say a fair guess :-))
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: it seems there is a trend in some countries to move higher bandwidth applications, especially anything voice and network related, out of 433
<wolfspraul>
and instead 'free it up' for sensors, 'technical applications'
<wolfspraul>
check dash7.org
<wpwrak>
yeah. now they're fed and strong. i kinda puzzled why this kind of people doesn't simply have some accident.
<wolfspraul>
because the ones they are fleecing are even fatter and stronger :-)
<wpwrak>
still, can't you remove someone without a trace back to you for that kind of money ? particularly now that they're going after lots of companies.
<wolfspraul>
but I think it's also safe to say that 433 will remain as an unlicensed spectrum, more important that cheap super high-volume ICs will continue to be designed and manufactured for it
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: but if the ones they are going after have even more to loose, why should they?
<wpwrak>
oh, 433 will be around. just not for what we want. that's what i meant with "it's dead" - not the technology as such, but in our context
<wolfspraul>
the patent system is a social system for the legal profession
<wolfspraul>
not what you want, yes
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes, that's the marketing view of it, let's say 'american style'
<wolfspraul>
go for the money!
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile Werner digs up every last word in the regulations :-)
<wolfspraul>
I'm looking at this from a very practical Chinese view
<wolfspraul>
will cheap ICs be available or not
<wpwrak>
just enough to debunk the marketing :)
<wolfspraul>
I think they will be.
<wolfspraul>
cheap ICs can only be available if the volumes are very high
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to pay more than 1-2 USD
<kristianpaul>
millions of ICs?
<wpwrak>
ieee 802.15.4 chips also aren't too bad
<wolfspraul>
so I'm not coming at this from the regulation side, I am coming at it from the cost side
<wolfspraul>
if you want an RF IC at 580 MHZ, for example, it will be crazy expensive because you have to do it all yourself
<wolfspraul>
but, big surprise, at 433 mhz there are 2 USD chips! great!
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wolfspraul>
of course millions, probably hundreds of millions
<wolfspraul>
hoperf sold 12 million modules in 2009 alone
<kristianpaul>
:O
<wolfspraul>
60% 433, 20% 868, 20% 915
<wpwrak>
the chip i'm playing with costs you USD 2.0935 at 1000 units. cheap enough ? :)
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
werner we are on the same page
<wolfspraul>
we look at this from different angles, I just try to explain to kristianpaul
<wolfspraul>
werner comes at it from a tech & regulation angle
<wolfspraul>
I come at it from a 'which IC can I get cheap, well documented, easily' angle
<kristianpaul>
evetually ignore regulation
<wolfspraul>
well that's not good either
<nebajoth>
yes, doesn't that require not heeding regulation at all?
<wpwrak>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
then you put yourself outside of large western markets like US and Europe, at least after you grow
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<nebajoth>
needs $1 gnu radio SOCs
<wolfspraul>
it's all about balance
<wolfspraul>
nebajoth: yes sure. if the global market would be 200kk/year you would have them
<wpwrak>
the problem is that you probably already fail FCC certification if you do this. or if you wiggle by, someone will dig out the regulations and you have PR problem. just no fun there.
<kristianpaul>
well, i will buy some resistors and try rmfblib anyway ;)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: you know how FCC certifications work, right?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes sure, play with 433 is cool
<wolfspraul>
see dash7.org
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i know there are way around it :)
<kristianpaul>
seeing
<kristianpaul>
nice link!
<wolfspraul>
but I agree with Werner actually, 802.15.4 is very interesting for real networking stuff
<kristianpaul>
me too
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: well yes, I thought I paste it to offset the regulation link werner gave you, which is kind of a depressing read to me :-)
<kristianpaul>
but too complicated for me :)
<kristianpaul>
i just want chatting !
<wolfspraul>
ironically it was werner himself who pointed me to dash7 :-)
<kristianpaul>
ohh
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: thanks !
<wolfspraul>
yeah that's werner
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i'm actuallly quite happy that TI are collecting all that stuff. it would be nearly impossible to figure it out otherwise :-(
<wolfspraul>
he can handle some contradictions :-)
<wolfspraul>
true, but remember, some things grow the deeper you dig
<wpwrak>
let's hope not :) it's deep enough already ...
<wolfspraul>
there are a lot of regulations that are meaningless, not enforced, well meant but ...
<wpwrak>
it is global. just mind the find print :)
<wolfspraul>
that doesn't sound like customs is waiting to catch the dangerous 433 emissions
<wolfspraul>
I think we can settle on 433 being best for 'technical applications'
<wpwrak>
i guess customs will only bother you once some competitor tells them to ...
<wolfspraul>
correct
<wolfspraul>
now you are moving to the real world :-)
<wpwrak>
the problem is that you then have to switch to something else. so, why not start with a "safe" band in the first place ?
<wolfspraul>
only if they have a case
<wolfspraul>
but no need to argue this, I actually agree with you
<wolfspraul>
I said it many times - 433 - no voice, no networking
<wolfspraul>
all cool with me
<wolfspraul>
I can market a product like this, and if someone hacks it up, not my problem.
<wpwrak>
you love it so much you forgive it any flaws ;-)
<kristianpaul>
ahh and fianlly have to pay to the "alliance"
<kristianpaul>
thats why i never join menberchip groups
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yup. dash7 ain't open.
<wolfspraul>
dash7 is patented, correct. but that's only their protocol, not the whole band.
<wolfspraul>
I just wanted to point you to a site that paints a more optimistic picture about 433 than werner.
<kristianpaul>
yeah 433 likes better
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: in one of the documents you referred me to, I read that luxembourg has special wifi regulations.
<wolfspraul>
argh
<wolfspraul>
I stopped reading at that point.
<kristianpaul>
back to read about PSK31
<wpwrak>
i'm not sure they disagree with me. their use is very different, though. 433 is find for sensor networks and such. as long as you don't read them too often.
<wolfspraul>
I grew up right next to luxembourg.
<wpwrak>
s/find/fine/
<wolfspraul>
even if they have special regulations, it takes about 30 minutes in any direction to leave the country. borders are open.
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
that's less than it takes me to go to the big electronics shopping area here in Beijing.
<wolfspraul>
seriously, this stuff only exists so some luxembourgian officials have something to do.
<wolfspraul>
not just reading newspaper every day in the office.
<wpwrak>
so it seems :)
<wolfspraul>
so they write something...
<wolfspraul>
TI picks it up.
<wolfspraul>
and Werner makes sure the whole world thinks about it :-)
<wpwrak>
well, if you intend to sell  in luxembourg or sell to a reseller there, then you may care. at least warn them.
<wolfspraul>
just kidding werner, I hope you don't mind...
<wolfspraul>
well
<wolfspraul>
worst case the product is only available behind the border, i.e. about as far away as any shop inside the city would be too.
<wpwrak>
of course, you can put a big warning "illegal in luxembourg". maybe people will actually like that ;-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, sure
<wolfspraul>
there are no border controls, just a sign 'entering luxembourg'.
<wolfspraul>
so you have to go to the media markt behind that sign? big deal...
<wpwrak>
maybe their regs aren't too different from the rest anyway
<wolfspraul>
it seems you need a special license to operate a public wifi
<wolfspraul>
I didnt' really read it.
<wpwrak>
wow :)
<wolfspraul>
we shouldn't forget the real intentions of regulations.
<wolfspraul>
if it's just to keep bureaucrats fed, that's one thing.
<wolfspraul>
if its' about safety, interference, etc. that's another thing
<wpwrak>
yeah, keep things from interfering
<wolfspraul>
both are real :-)
<wpwrak>
yup
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: get better soon (read about the flu above)
<wpwrak>
thanks ! already preparing to take my canadian bug killer medicine ...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: btw, inside China, I can tell you what is cheap will spread, what's written on paper cannot stop that.
<wolfspraul>
so the western regulations influence what spreads in china because they steer investments in a certain direction
<wolfspraul>
which then leads to cheap products in certain areas, which will then spread inside China
<wolfspraul>
the country is far too big to stop anything 'illegal' from spreading
<wolfspraul>
so if the 433 mhz rf ic is the cheapest, it will spread
<wolfspraul>
the moment the xxx mhz ic is just 5 cents cheaper, it will move to that one
<wolfspraul>
the xxx doesn't matter
<kristianpaul>
great !
<kristianpaul>
*there*
<kristianpaul>
but great anyway :)
<wolfspraul>
so if some large US companies start to order xxx mhz rf ics, and they become very cheap due to super high volume, then those chips will also spread in China.
<kristianpaul>
how is GSM tech going in china btw?
<wolfspraul>
and as I said, if something is ordered by a foreign company, and that makes certain things cheap, then those same things will also be sold in China
<wolfspraul>
I'm now using my cheap 20 USD phone to see how long it lasts.
<wolfspraul>
and voice quality in general.
<kristianpaul>
oh good, you it englihsh menu finally?