<wpwrak>
inside is a bit tricky. nobody knows for sure.
<Oksana>
What's the density inside the black hole? Can you imagine, new things being pulled into the black hole all the time?
<P-G>
So lose a few kg then go in.
<P-G>
Encode conscious mind as physical waves and blast yourself in.
<wpwrak>
Oksana: maybe inside there's just vast emptiness
<Oksana>
Relativity dictates that anything approaching an event horizon will, from the point of view of an observer, never actually cross the horizon, but will approach ever more slowly, gaining mass as it does so and, correspondingly, any light it emits will be further and further red-shifted.
<P-G>
So we'll be safe from video and radio surveillance.
<Oksana>
So, from the point of view of an outside observer, black hole never actually swallow anything inside - it just pulls objects closer-slower-closer-slower...
<P-G>
Which means we are also safe from old age.
<Oksana>
Even if you have no mass - only waves - your waves will get interference from all the other objects around you...
<P-G>
That's the tricky part.
<Oksana>
On the other hand, an indestructible observer falling into a black hole does not notice any of these effects as he crosses the event horizon. According to his own clock, which appears to him to tick normally, he crosses the event horizon after a finite time without noting any singular behaviour. In particular, he is unable to determine exactly when he crosses it, as it is impossible to...
<Oksana>
...determine the location of the event horizon from local observations.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: (event horizon paradox) I wonder how mass actually vanishes from outside of a black hole
<wpwrak>
and the real pros just skip the line and tunnel the last few planck distances
<Oksana>
DocScrutinizer05: Black holes becomes bigger?
<Oksana>
hole*
<P-G>
Yes.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<P-G>
Eventually, the universe will be one big black hole.
<P-G>
We may already be one.
<P-G>
We wouldn't know.
<DocScrutinizer05>
P-G: I bet we are
<P-G>
It seems likely.
<P-G>
Not sensible, but likely.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only thing that makes a lil bit of sense, with big bang and "size of universe" and all
<P-G>
Yeah but it still had to come from somewhere so that doesn't really answer any questions.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm
<P-G>
It does make the enevitability of eventually being sucked into a black hole more comfortable though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
watch the time paradox in event horizon paradox
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<Oksana>
Ok, so, if you do not see objects crossing the horizon, and yet you do observe that the black hole absorbs mass and grows with time... Does it mean that black hole "drinks" mass from objects while leaving the objects outside the horizon?
<DocScrutinizer05>
"to come from" is assuming a somewhat linear time
<P-G>
Humanity is a temporal existance.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: that's the nice thing in this paradox
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's paradox and yet it works, even kinda naturally
<P-G>
I think it's a slow compression that appears slower on the outside due to affects on light.
<P-G>
If a person were to float in, we would be ripped apart and crushed.
<P-G>
Eventually.
<P-G>
It is a very long time to make it through the disk though.
<P-G>
Not sure how long but space is a pretty big place.
<P-G>
Those disks are huge.
<Oksana>
For the indestructible falling-through observer, it is a finite (how long?) time to fall through the horizon. For outside observer, nothing ever falls through the horizon. We can see remnants of everything that was ever collected by black hole.
<Oksana>
What is a white hole?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no we cannot since the event horizon expands
<P-G>
We become it.
<P-G>
But it would take a while in first-person time because the disk is big. Not sure how long.
<ds2>
Oksana: you can always consider another solution - if they want information, give them information.
<P-G>
Not like we'll be in space anyway. The real concern is the ralative position and orbit of our planets and space stations to their suns. Will those change significantly as we approach the black hole(s)?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the real paradox is: the hole expands because it will expand
<ds2>
put up netting that makes your property look like an amusement park from above
<DocScrutinizer05>
yu called it "drinking mass"
<Oksana>
Yes, but the object is here.
<ds2>
do what you can to pollute their databases
<P-G>
The object becomes the black hole. It tears us apart and compressed us along with other matter until we are unfathomly dense.
<Oksana>
Black hole does not swallow the information of the object; it drinks something like "mass" or "energy" of the object, in order to expand, but it leaves the object's information available to outside observer
<Oksana>
As far as I parse it
<P-G>
Because of light.
<ds2>
create E&M ghosts for them to image
<P-G>
The visual information is too old when viewed from the outside.
<P-G>
From the first-person, you would be torn apart and compressed.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, there's some new theory that says the info stays exactly in the event horizon surface
<DocScrutinizer05>
no idea though how to read it out from the distant outside
<Oksana>
Yes, but it is here. It is stretched, stretched and stretched - the information which seemed finite-time to the falling-object itself, will be infinite-time to outside-observer.
<P-G>
Well, if light has enough mass to get caught, you would need a lighter medium of observation.
<Oksana>
Light does not get caught... I think
<Oksana>
Did anybody ever shine a laser through a black hole?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: yes, but that's only in a finite distance to horizon. But horizon itself moves
<P-G>
Horizon expands as mass expands due to gravity.
<DocScrutinizer05>
complete "zero-time" for "outside" objects only is reached exactly in contact with horizon
<P-G>
That's time as observed from outside.
<P-G>
Observation based on light.
<Oksana>
That's the difficult part. As black hole expands, how does it manage to keep the falling-objects outside it? Pushes them away with radiation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
a 10 km away from horizon, time still ticks. And in 100 years the hole is 30km bigger
<P-G>
It doesn't keep things outside it, it sucks them up.
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would it push them out. No, it eats them
<P-G>
Suck stuff up, get fat, get bigger, suck up more stuff.
<Oksana>
An older falling-object is closer to the event horizon, and emits radiation which pushes a newer falling-object away from the horizon?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it grows because it will grow
<P-G>
That's visual observation from the outside.
<Oksana>
(why would it push them out. No, it eats them) It would contradict the statement that outside observer never sees the falling-object crossing the horizon
<DocScrutinizer05>
that statement is obviously wrong
<P-G>
The seeing is based on light!
<P-G>
The light is stuck!
<Oksana>
If light was stuck we wouldn't see anything.
<P-G>
Stuck in a time vortex.
<P-G>
Time constantly getting slower.
<Oksana>
It's time that runs differently, yes :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or just pretty fuzzy. not the object crosses the horizon, the horizon crosses the object
<P-G>
They merge. :)
* Oksana
thinks that 2+3 or 3+2, it's still the same
<P-G>
I think it's safe to say people stop being people before actually hitting the horizon.
<P-G>
Light weighs a lot less than matter.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: no, since the object's observed time stops when approaching the horizon
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<DocScrutinizer05>
next to the horizon only the horizon itselv has a ticking time and observably moves
<DocScrutinizer05>
itself
<P-G>
We cannot see the horizon because no light comes out of it and we see things move more slowly as they approach it because light is distorted.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
horizon moves through an area of frozen time
<P-G>
So probably very quickly from its perspective.
<P-G>
Fun stuff.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, from inside the event horizon prolly expands with speed of light
<P-G>
Or faster. ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
see "size of universe"
<DocScrutinizer05>
when our "limits of universe" are actually the event horizon of our black hole we're in
<P-G>
That is cool.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think the universe is larger than old, so yes the event horizon aka "border of universe" moves faster than light
<DocScrutinizer05>
the space itself expands
<Oksana>
Ok, from the insider's point of view, does he observe objects falling through horizon? So can we see anything falling into the black hole from the outside? And what is it?
<P-G>
Nothing.
<P-G>
We see with light.
<P-G>
There is nothing lighter that we know of.
<P-G>
Or that I know of. :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
we see birth of new galaxies at "border of universe"
<DocScrutinizer05>
P-G: she asked "from the insider's point of view"
<P-G>
Oh.
<P-G>
Then yes. :p
<P-G>
But we wouldn't be able to see past the event horizon on this side either.
<P-G>
Because the light on the other side goes the other way.
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course not
<P-G>
"due to Hubble's law regions sufficiently distant from us are expanding away from us faster than the speed of light (special relativity prevents nearby objects in the same local region from moving faster than the speed of light with respect to each other, but there is no such constraint for distant objects when the space between them is expanding"
<DocScrutinizer05>
the space itself expands
<DocScrutinizer05>
it all only makes sense when we assume we already _are_ inside a black hole
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<P-G>
So black hole expands just slightly faster than the speed of light?
<bencoh>
hmm
<P-G>
Like, speep_of_light + size_of_light?
<P-G>
"the expansion rate appears to be accelerating due to dark energy"
<DocScrutinizer05>
dark energy might simple be the mass outside of the black hole
<DocScrutinizer05>
waiting there to get eaten
<P-G>
So it would disperse and the rate of universal expansion would decrease?
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a time paradox in black holes. They grow because they will grow
<P-G>
Well, when the star collapses, that gives them a head start.
<P-G>
Become dense enough and that starts the cycle.
<DocScrutinizer05>
when time stops completely, it's pretty hard to tell what's future and what's past
<P-G>
I don't understand the time stopping concept.
<P-G>
It's just observation.
<P-G>
It's relative.
<DocScrutinizer05>
(star collapse) sounds like big bang to me
<Oksana>
Ok, so when black hole "drinks" mass from outside objects (without actually swallowing them), this mass becomes "dark energy" inside the black hole, facilitation the expansion of the black hole?
<P-G>
Inside the disk but outside of the event horizon.
<bencoh>
uh ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
P-G: yes, observation from outside. I think all scientists agree that they have no idea about time and dimensions *inside* a black hole
<P-G>
Unless we're in one. :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: sound theory :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we should ask Hawking what he thinks about it
<P-G>
The disk eats matter when it gets close enough. The momentary rate of absorbtion, in real-time for the black hole, correlates to the dark energy inside the black hole. That's the theory.
<P-G>
Lol, do you have his email? :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas not :-)
<P-G>
Or maybe he's in #astrophysics?
<P-G>
"If the particle is moving at a relativistic velocity, the usual relativistic corrections for time dilation must be made."
<P-G>
>Usual
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB when energy conservation paradigm was true, the expansion of universe must stop eventually since there's only a limited amount of dark energy to expand the universe. By expanding it the dark energy converts in potential energy in gravitation between objects incresing their distance
<DocScrutinizer05>
ever expanding universe only makes sense when new dark energy comes from outside
<DocScrutinizer05>
"outside"
<P-G>
Mhm.
<P-G>
And the rate of expansion is relative to the instantaneous absorbtion rate of the event horizon (from its perspective).
<P-G>
Anybody here know how to publish a scientific paper? :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
since absorption rate is arbitrary, this explains where some of our constants come from
<P-G>
And from our perspective they change very slowly but this is all happening very quickly for the black hole.
<P-G>
That's why what's instantaneous for the black hole is a very long time for us.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Observable_universe_logarithmic_illustration.png , inside the horizon there obviously must be a gradient in time and matter density just like outside. I love to think about horizon itself as a shock front expanding and transforming stuff into new stuff which then escapes from horizon to the inside just in an inverse way to that it got aggregated on the outside
<DocScrutinizer05>
in that sense you never can reach or see the horizon/universe-border from inside just like you can't from outside
<DocScrutinizer05>
the closer you get from inside, the more and more the time slows down for you, and more and more stuff slowly "drifts away" from horizon towards youand frozen time zone and into some more "normal" reality
<DocScrutinizer05>
a funny detail: in topology how do you define if you're on the inside or outside surface of a ball?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd not be surprised if there was no real difference
<P-G>
Right, the side is relative to the shape of the ball or whatever else you choose.
<P-G>
You could tell if you're in the ball through triangulation but no communication seems to pass through the black hole undistorted.
<P-G>
It might be possible if we could predict the distortion but even then it would take far too long. The message would need to be sent at impossible speed.
<DocScrutinizer05>
in topology there's no such stuff like shapes and triangulation
<P-G>
Well, let's say you're talking about a map. The map would have to be of space, right? Three dimensional?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maps are relative
<P-G>
Oh, I guess it only works if you're inside or outside. Not which side you're on.
<DocScrutinizer05>
intra-system
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a ball of infinite size, I'd guess there's no way to tell apart inside from outside
<P-G>
That's true but the universe isn't actually infinite, it's just constantly expanding, right?
<P-G>
The problem is that it's not just a ball, there are many black holes in each universe. Expansion is radial but universe inversion is not. Eventually one black hole will eat up our matter and we will be in another.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, but it means the situation "inside" and "outside" most likely are symmetrical
<P-G>
Right, it's like an hour glass. There is sand on both sides and eventually the matter on one side is depleated and the expansion is triggered.
<P-G>
In our universe.
<P-G>
In the other universe, the black holes would be quite large.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the mass/energy content of one side of the ball might be higher or lower than on the other side
<P-G>
I might suggest it would be proportionally inverted.
<P-G>
As we lose one, they gain it, but they must lose the other in proportion.
<P-G>
Which we gain.
<P-G>
That would be the force with which the black hole pulls/pushes in/out matter.
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, mannergy "diffuses" through the "membrane" (horizon)
<P-G>
Black holes provide suction while the universe provides propultion.
<P-G>
The expansion provides propultion.
<DocScrutinizer05>
like one side came into existence with a big bang event, the other side must eventually end in an inverse event
<P-G>
Yes, but there are more than two sides going at once.
<P-G>
Each black hole represents one.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, of course
<DocScrutinizer05>
so in the end it all might be an equilibrium
<P-G>
Black hole is formed here, they get a big bang.
<P-G>
Yes.
* DocScrutinizer05
shudders
<P-G>
Matter and energy would not be destroyed but they would flip sides.
<P-G>
Or maybe move into other universes is a better way of putting it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<P-G>
The real question is whether the amount of force generated by all of the black holes in our universe is proportional to the force/speed with which our universe is expanding.
<DocScrutinizer05>
infinite row of universes in universes in universes in universe (singular, our own one. many others are parallel prolly)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in universe in universe
<P-G>
Well not really rows because many can be interconnected.
<DocScrutinizer05>
who knows, maybe it's a multi-dimensional ring of universes
<P-G>
If we have two black holes, they both get some of our matter and energy and we would get both back.
<P-G>
Or maybe every black hole leads to the same universe. :p
<P-G>
Seems unlikely though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehehe
<P-G>
Fun to think about though.
<P-G>
Eventually we will be in another universe whether we like it or not.
* DocScrutinizer05
needs a beer
* P-G
needs sleep
<DocScrutinizer05>
not me ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'll be dead by then
<P-G>
Well, that's a different issue.
<P-G>
Are we our conscious mind or are we a conglomerate of matter?
<P-G>
Sentience does not make a thing, it is just another attrobute.
<P-G>
Objects are defined by shape but we remain ourselves despite changing in shape and behaviour.
<P-G>
Good luck with that one. :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: excellent link
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks
<P-G>
>.<
<P-G>
Oh, wow.
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>the time-reversed version of a black hole<< HAH!!! told ya, when time asymptotically approaches freeze when approaching event horizon from "outside" what will it do on the inside? unfreeze but run inverse maybe?
<P-G>
That's all I can imagine.
<P-G>
The matter has to go somewhere. Either is is purely compressed or it is going somewhere. Those are probably the only two reasonable options.
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<P-G>
If the matter compresses, it would eventually explode; possibly after having merged with other black holes. If the matter goes somewhere, it would be a white hole on the other side.
<DocScrutinizer05>
white hole seen from inside :-)
<P-G>
Stuff goes in one way and comes out the other. Could work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I actually think exactly on event horizon no matter can exist
<DocScrutinizer05>
only energy
<P-G>
So the matter would be converted into energy or simply generate energy by force?
<DocScrutinizer05>
is there a difference
<DocScrutinizer05>
?
<P-G>
Whether the matter is destroyed or not. :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
matter = energy
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<P-G>
Ok, I'll have to take your word for that. I don't know much about physics.
<DocScrutinizer05>
e = mc^2
<P-G>
What's c again?
<DocScrutinizer05>
not my word, Einstein's
<P-G>
Gravity?
<DocScrutinizer05>
c is speed of light
<P-G>
:p
<P-G>
Ok then let's say the matter becomes energy before it touches the event horizon.
<P-G>
The blackness is pure energy then?
<P-G>
The black hole will have mass either way.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, sure
<P-G>
I don't know about energy. Can it have a colour?
<P-G>
Or would that be particles?
<P-G>
But particles are matter.
<P-G>
I don't think this works but I'm too tired to tell.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think the white hole, which in my simplistic view is just the inside view of a black hole's event horizon, will spit out new matter as well as energy
<P-G>
Or either one.
* Oksana
thinks that energy does not have colour...
<P-G>
Yeah...
<Oksana>
By the way, dark energy and dark matter are two different things
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
almost opposite
<P-G>
Lol.
<P-G>
Because one is really dense and the other is not even in our universe? :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
because dark energy has sth you might call negative gravity
<DocScrutinizer05>
while dark matter has positive gravity
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh wow, another webpage that eats one cpu core and never finishes rendering
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually freezes konqueror
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder how nasty js must get to cause this
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<DocScrutinizer05>
not like FF would act much better
<Oksana>
Yes, it was slow here, too.
<Oksana>
I actually sent the link before I started reading the page - it was that slow...
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just closed FF tab, it didn't do anything
<DocScrutinizer05>
"connected with assets.national...."
* Oksana
thinks that the only way the universe inside the black hole is not located inside the parent-universe (which observes the black hole from outside) is separation-in-time...
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course both are unrelated on all dimensions
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise how would a whole universe with an age of billions of years fit into a "tiny" young black hole
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<Oksana>
They are related, through black-hole-horizon. Just, time-strangeness does not allow the outside-observer to see time-inside-of-black-hole - he sees everything before insides-of-black-hole get populated... And, would that time-stretching coincide with space-compression, or something?
<Oksana>
It's a one-way door - the only way to see the time inside the black hole is to allow yourself to be pulled into the black hole...
<DocScrutinizer05>
(connected by horizon) and nothing can pass the horizon without getting transformed into pure energy (like existed at start of big bang) and then back into whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's my idea though
<DocScrutinizer05>
mabe nonsense, but would make sense it seems to me
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