<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I fully agree with your observations of showing M1 to friends
<wolfspraul> one path to more media coverage is to be more realistic about where we are today, where we want to go, etc.
<wolfspraul> if one takes a little distance from Milkymist, you will realize what a strangely limited and obscure product M1 is *today*
<wolfspraul> and that's fine, but that's to be communicated wisely
<wolfspraul> stekern: what price do you want to pay for the board only?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: what do you think of selling boards that fail testing ? you could even make an auction. announce which boards will be available a few days in advance, so people have time to read the test reports, and maybe get advice on what the problems really mean.
<wpwrak> and i feel rather stupid today. yesterday, i macguyvered a very nice voltage dropper to simulate the effect a 4.x V reset chip would have in our system, using the existing 2.63 V chip. i did nice measurements and everything. it looked great: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/m1/nor/d8/ddd.png
<wolfspraul> sounds like unbelievable overhead
<wolfspraul> first of all I need to work on the yield
<wolfspraul> the failing boards are very valuable to the future of Milkymist (One) if we take this serious
<wpwrak> then, today, i looked for the spares adam had sent - and realized that he had already sent me 4.4 V chips. so none of this was needed after all ...
<wolfspraul> as you know I always try to make use of every last little thing, so for example for the rc2 boards, we got to the point that Adam had zero and I had to buy 2 back :-)
<wpwrak> okay, you plan to archive them. not just throw them away. okay. that's a good plan, too
<wolfspraul> no archive
<wolfspraul> 'use'
<wolfspraul> but what use?
<wolfspraul> I move carefully, no chaos
<wpwrak> well, one use would be to sell them :)
<wolfspraul> yes
<wpwrak> see if people are interested, etc.
<wolfspraul> but very limited, if you just look at the cash
<wolfspraul> one by one
<wolfspraul> let's give adam another week or two
<wolfspraul> that work is progressing very well
<wpwrak> that would produce those low-cost boards sebastien wants at zero engineering overhead :)
<wolfspraul> a handful maybe
<wolfspraul> and not scalable
<wpwrak> of course, it all depend on what defects they have
<wolfspraul> we need those 'internally'
<wolfspraul> for core contributors like you
<wpwrak> you may not need all that many ...
<wolfspraul> for journalists/review units
<wolfspraul> for ourselves so we don't have to waste a for-sale unit
<wolfspraul> and so on
<wolfspraul> or for repair cases
<wpwrak> giving partially damaged boards to journalist doesn't sound like a good idea :)
<wolfspraul> nah
<wolfspraul> since we are trying to find root causes 'partially damaged' is not usually the last state
<wolfspraul> either it's completely broken at the end, or fully working but with too many repairs to sell as new
<wolfspraul> if it's not in any of those 2 states yet, work on the board is not finished :-)
<wpwrak> well, eventually, you'll run out of adam :)
<wolfspraul> we have to get the yield up
<wolfspraul> 'run out of adam'?
<wolfspraul> don't understand
<wolfspraul> Adam will work on rc3 now, then rc4. all full power. at least 6 months I think.
<wolfspraul> ah
<wolfspraul> I need to email my led lamp power supply friend again :-)
<wpwrak> you may have more rewarding work for him than fiddling with boards that may very well have suffered a unique rework mishap already
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> yield is my #1 concern
<wolfspraul> we want to make M1 scalable
<wolfspraul> I leave the prototype show-offs to others
<wolfspraul> yield must go up
<wpwrak> sure. but there's a point where you write off a board, simply because you don't trust your rework anymore
<wolfspraul> that will bring more than any of the chip changes Sebastien suggested
<wpwrak> that's not a yield thing then. it's simply a board that had no more information for you
<wolfspraul> not really, but yes. in some (few) cases it may end like that.
<wolfspraul> but then we carry the yield problem over to rc4, where it will cost more
<wolfspraul> but yes, we are on the same page
<wolfspraul> rc3 was tough, but in the end I am satisfied
<wolfspraul> hard and calm work paid off
<wolfspraul> now the story... :-)
<wpwrak> yeah, rc3 isn't too bad. had a rough start, but survived :)
<wolfspraul> I think in order to convey a credible story, first we have to be more realistic ourselves.
<wolfspraul> yes!
<wolfspraul> it was good
<wolfspraul> I have only 1 PE
<wolfspraul> it's all fine
<wolfspraul> there he is :-)
<wolfspraul> what we sell is absolutely picture perfect stuff, I'm happy
<wpwrak> applause to the one and only PE ! :)
<wpwrak> too late to hide :)
<wolfspraul> we can squeeze more good knowledge out of rc3, adam is on it
<wolfspraul> then onto rc4
<wolfspraul> the manufacturing part is my least concern
<wolfspraul> my concerns now are: pr, software updates
<wolfspraul> distributors
<wpwrak> ah, quick sneak preview on NOR torture: CE0 also had trouble. and then it did the "lock block 0" thing to me. this time, believe it or not, i didn't restart and insist on getting at least 10k cycles in a row.
<wpwrak> instead, i did the reset chip rework. it's now running. still too early to tell
<wolfspraul> sorry lost you on the first line
<wolfspraul> "CE0 had trouble"?
<wpwrak> CE0 = the 2nd line to pull-up
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> trouble = ?
<wpwrak> that is, it worked as before. the CE0 pull-up didn't help.
<wolfspraul> you mean CE0 didn't improve the NOR situation?
<wolfspraul> ok but it didn't make it worse either
<wolfspraul> so it had no effect
<wolfspraul> that's not what I would initially call 'trouble' :-)
<wolfspraul> or did it make things worse?
<wpwrak> ("as before' = within reasonable bounds. it corrupted about 20% less often, but that's probably just something that would disappear with more samples)
<wpwrak> it didn't make things worse
<wpwrak> okay, "trouble" may be a bit exaggerated :)
<wolfspraul> I am thinknig about the low-cost Artix-7 board more. Maybe it should be a different product, or aimed at that. Like the camera we had planned for a while.
<wpwrak> the low-cost boards may be a good start for a M2.
<wolfspraul> mobile product, battery powered
<wolfspraul> I need to understand the product focus, to support it. Which I am trying to wrap my head around...
<wpwrak> with the artix-7 being brand new, and those FPGAs not exactly the most bug-free chips on the planet, i wouldn't touch it with a long pole for a good while
<wolfspraul> and still wondering about the boot options, I guess I will dig into the datasheets myself now :-)
<wpwrak> that is, unless xilinx pay us for taking the risk :)
<wolfspraul> very unlikely
<wolfspraul> they have technical marketing for that, and we cannot compete
<wpwrak> yeah. that's what i expect too
<wolfspraul> we may think we are the most unique and most genius folks in the world, but some others out there may just disagree or don't care :-)
<wpwrak> so i put an impossible condition, to make it look as if i disagreed a little less ;-)
<wolfspraul> how about a product focus?
<wolfspraul> I need product focus
<wolfspraul> it must be a fun product
<wolfspraul> and different from m1
<wolfspraul> so it could be mobile, camera
<wolfspraul> ?
<wpwrak> main purpose: EVB for new things to try in M2.
<wolfspraul> nah
<wpwrak> side-effect: low-cost developer board
<wolfspraul> then just use a normal evb and then onto the m1 board
<wolfspraul> that is a total fail strategy
<wolfspraul> others can support it
<wolfspraul> that's what devel boards are for
<wolfspraul> if you have no product focus, you don't know which bugs to fix
<wolfspraul> over the last years, I found an almost 9 out of 10 correlation between this:
<wpwrak> (which bugs to fix) sebastien's razor may work very efficiently there ;-)
<wolfspraul> people that have never done any project with a devboard are pointing to some random dev board "this is so much cheaper than your m1"
<wolfspraul> and people who are in the industry for many years and have worked with a number of dev boards are saying "that is so unbelievable that you made this product at this pricepoint"
<wolfspraul> interesting, eh?
<wolfspraul> of course the reason is simple
<wolfspraul> without product focus, a dev board is essentially unfixable
<wolfspraul> because you don't know which bugs are important
<wolfspraul> it's overheating after 2 hours
<wolfspraul> is that a problem?
<wolfspraul> for a dev board - not really? or is it?
<wolfspraul> so if this new board is just a very weird wannabe dev board, forget it. take the ones from professional dev board (technical marketing) companies.
<wolfspraul> they will be faster than we are, cheaper, better
<wpwrak> well, then no new board before M1 or FPGA-Nanonote :)
<wolfspraul> but if we can identify some product focus, we suddenly know which bugs are important
<wpwrak> that was easy :)
<wolfspraul> how about camera?
<wolfspraul> that would be mobile, new product
<wolfspraul> could be interesting
<wolfspraul> laser projector?
<wolfspraul> I think camera is closest in terms of reusing what Milkymist SoC can do already
<wolfspraul> also Milkymist is strong in computer vision, or could be taken there
<wolfspraul> that also leans to camera
<wolfspraul> and we include a 25 USD camera with M1, that's 25 USD we can save if we make our own camera :-)
<wolfspraul> anyway I just keep thinking
<wpwrak> camera may be tricky on the mechanical side. also, you need encapsulated optics (dust) and all that
<wolfspraul> nah
<wolfspraul> I spent some time on this, with visits to Elphel, working on Xue, visiting lense makers, sourcing the M1 camera, and so on
<wpwrak> plus, yo uneed someone to actually drive the image processing work there
<wolfspraul> of course cameras are a huge market with lots of differentiation
<wolfspraul> I would just make the simplest possible camera first
<wolfspraul> even seen as a replacement for the one we include with m1
<wolfspraul> I just respond emotionally - in order to react to the artix-7 board proposal, I need to understand the USE CASE
<wolfspraul> otherwise it's just tech juggling
<wolfspraul> I don't know this feature, that feature, what to think.
<wolfspraul> but once we say 'camera' - then we can zoom in (:-))
<wolfspraul> otherwise it's best that we wait for the artix-7 dev boards and then port Milkymist to that
<wolfspraul> you think we can beat the dev board? no way!
<wpwrak> so who's the camera expert who will fill your contraption with life ?
<wolfspraul> no expert
<wolfspraul> you scared? :-)
<wpwrak> and your camera will be ridiculously expensive, compared to the barrel you're shipping now
<wolfspraul> he
<wpwrak> not scared. but you need someone who "owns" the project
<wolfspraul> see that's the problem
<wolfspraul> markets are competitive
<wolfspraul> that's why if you give up with the M1 synthesizer/VJ whatever now, you just look like a fool
<wpwrak> like sebastien "owns" M1
<wolfspraul> of course, if you make a random dev board, you don't have that problem
<wolfspraul> because there is no gauge for success
<wolfspraul> so it's always a success
<wolfspraul> "because it boots"
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> but when you have a real product in real life, suddenly, oh my, there are other ways to solve the problem!
<wolfspraul> that's painful to realize
<wolfspraul> your stuff is not needed
<wolfspraul> the other stuff is better, faster, cheaper
<wolfspraul> but that's exactly the type of thing I find interesting, and where the real business lies
<wolfspraul> so you are right
<wolfspraul> I mention "camera", and you say : what about A, B, C, D, E, F, G, ...?
<wolfspraul> and yes
<wolfspraul> it's exactly that because we have this list now that we can make a good camera
<wolfspraul> if we make a 'dev board', anything goes right?
<wolfspraul> just "cheap" for the "cheap hackers"
<wolfspraul> i'm not saying it has to be a camera
<wolfspraul> maybe sebastien has other ideas
<wolfspraul> but I think product focus would help
<wolfspraul> to *focus*
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> I think a mobile product would be cool, something battery powered
<wolfspraul> because that's what M1 is not
<wpwrak> Ya ? :)
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> then it has to be a replacement for the Ben
<wolfspraul> maybe we can make a small board that even fits into the Ben case?
<wolfspraul> but you will see, Sebastien may not like the limitations of that case :-)
<wolfspraul> product focus is tough
<wolfspraul> everybody wants to pull it in this or that direction
<wolfspraul> whereas on a dev board, you just throw a few more things on, or leave them unpopulated
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: hi good morning!
<wpwrak> case ... mabe. the keyboard is a tad hairy.
<wolfspraul> agreed
<wolfspraul> I like camera
<wolfspraul> laser projector
<wolfspraul> Ya
<wolfspraul> but let me just reply on the list real quick with this realization ;-)
<xiangfu> good morning.
<wolfspraul> how did the Lantern meeting go yesterday?
<wolfspraul> you can tell us the full story
<wolfspraul> we are in PAINFUL REALIZATIONS mode
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> camera and laser both add a lot of complexity in new fields. you don't even master the old ones yet :)
<wolfspraul> oh
<wolfspraul> I will continue with M1
<wpwrak> also, laser if probably a PITA to ship around
<wpwrak> s/if/is/
<wolfspraul> I had some nasty headline ideas for slashdot
<wpwrak> btw, how big is the lantern ?
<wolfspraul> small, maybe 8m x 20m
<xiangfu> shortly is 'waste of time' . the full story is.
<wolfspraul> but very prime location in Beijing
<wpwrak> upscale ?
<wpwrak> xiangfu: i already like the directness of your statement ;-)
<wolfspraul> "Milkymist founder tries to inherit reality distortion field but it doesn't work"
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: upscale, yes
<wolfspraul> but Beijing is difficult
<wolfspraul> I mean different too
<xiangfu> I goto there. setup the m1. then on person said we want .png/.mov file inside the performance. use usb-disk copy those file to milkymist.
<wolfspraul> there are clubs for the new rich Chinese
<wolfspraul> Lantern is not one of those
<wpwrak> upscale is bad. you want something more experimental
<xiangfu> I said there is no such function for now. and I can not guarantee when we can finish this.
<wolfspraul> those "new rich Chinese" clubs are mostly about high-end hookers (1000 USD per night etc), movie/reality stars, people arriving in Porsche/BMW/Lamborghini/etc.
<wolfspraul> Lantern is about electronic music
<wolfspraul> very real nice people
<wolfspraul> electronic music is small in China
<wolfspraul> and acupuncture-records (the company behind Lantern) is a leading company in electronic music in China
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: it is experimental, it's really a good fit
<wolfspraul> they have djs/vjs on the weekend
<wolfspraul> but let's listen to xiangfu
<wpwrak> xiangfu: did you go there to make a sales demonstration ? or to make a proper show ?
<wolfspraul> nah, we demonstrated before
<xiangfu> they kind of like the video-in patch. and I also show them how to switch video-in with other patch for make cool performance :)
<wolfspraul> xiangfu went to sell & install
<wolfspraul> but you see the reaction "want png/mov from usb stick"
<wpwrak> i think the idea of selling to the club is fundamentally flawed
<xiangfu> then I wait the miao finish her task and give me the cash. (she said she want wiring the money at that day :)
<wpwrak> why should a club buy it ? it exotic. none of the visiting VJs will know what it is.
<wpwrak> and it's boring without a VJ. so what's in it for the club ?
<wolfspraul> the dj/vj is a weekend event
<wolfspraul> but the club is open 7 days a week
<wolfspraul> on 6 of those days the projector is dark
<wolfspraul> even if milkymist only kicks in 10 minutes each hour, that's a nice thing!
<wpwrak> those dark days are your opportunity
<wolfspraul> hey, don't think too badly about m1 now. in a club in darkness it does look pretty cool.
<wpwrak> don't send sales or tech - send a VJ
<xiangfu> after miao finish his task. her became to ask again. and said 'Jon/Wolfgang already said m1 can performance .PNG/.MOV file'
<wolfspraul> you should see it, it looks really nice
<wolfspraul> Jon maybe a little over-optimistic sometimes :-)
<xiangfu> I said "no. no such function for now"
<xiangfu> Miao: "I can pay 2000RMB first. when you guys finish this feature I pay other money"
<wpwrak> you should market to VJs, not to clubs. get the clubs to play along and allow you to make a show for their customers.
<wolfspraul> that is happening
<xiangfu> me: "our software is free. no charge for future after, if you pay other money for this feature. what about other new features?"
<wolfspraul> what's bad about approaching a club for the 6 days of the week without vj?
<wpwrak> so, find a VJ, make him/her use M1 very well, then send him/her with the M1 to do a show. contact other VJs first and let them know about the show. maybe bribe them with free drinks, VIP access, or whatever.
<kristianpaul> Work shop went "fine", 5 people assisted, was a bit mezzy we got crazy making a simple patch by just reading the flickernoise handbook
<kristianpaul> workshop*
<wolfspraul> ha
<xiangfu> then she call Jon. and the result is "when m1 have this feature. I will buy one" . that is all.
<wolfspraul> what do you mean with "got crazy by just reading the handbook"
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: excellent!
<xiangfu> waste my whole afternoon time. and I have to re-package this milkymist one again.
<wolfspraul> did you get the m1 back in perfect condition?
<kristianpaul> yes
<xiangfu> yes.
<wpwrak> the problem is that M1 sucks without the VJ. if you sell it to the club telling them they don't need a VJ, the message they spread is that M1 sucks
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: great
<wolfspraul> Werner, lemme try again :-)
<wolfspraul> you have to be a bit more flexible now
<wolfspraul> lean back
<wolfspraul> think
<xiangfu> I needs clean m1 and package it again.
<wpwrak> either actively or by having it there, sucking,for all to see
<wolfspraul> the alternative is BLACK SCREEN
<wolfspraul> it cannot be more boring than that
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: ok ok, no i mean was nice it was playing and fun trying variables and trying variables..
<wolfspraul> I am not talking about Saturday night with the live VJ
<wolfspraul> scratch that for now
<wolfspraul> talk about Tuesday night
<wolfspraul> screen:
<wolfspraul> BLACK
<wolfspraul> and now what?
<wolfspraul> you think M1 is more boring than a black screen?
<kristianpaul> of course it take a while to get something to look good, but i guess all artistic work takes time
<wolfspraul> or is your answer "hire a VJ every night"
<wpwrak> no. but there are devices they can buy right now that will display their PNGs :)
<wolfspraul> the 'boring' problem may already be solved by having a timer that will only play effects 10 minutes each hour
<wolfspraul> gee
<wolfspraul> are you trying to be a salesman for other companies
<wolfspraul> sales is work
<wolfspraul> of course there may be lots of stuff
<wolfspraul> but our stuff is also stuff
<wolfspraul> if it works and they like it, they will buy
<wolfspraul> that's why I think little things like removing standby mode are valuable
<kristianpaul> handbook is OKAY, just realizing in 4 hours there are lots of variables to be used is well a buit "crazy"
<wolfspraul> because the barkeeper may just not know the middle button trick
<wolfspraul> and small things like a timer, so it's not on all the time (=boring)
<wolfspraul> the M1 running in that club looks really nice
<wolfspraul> especially some patches of course
<wolfspraul> I would make a selection of 5-10
<wolfspraul> and show them 10-15 minutes for each hour
<kristianpaul> feedback from today: 1. That looks very well and smoth animation
<wolfspraul> if they insist on "png/mov from a usb stick" first, then they wait, fine. and their screen stays black.
<wpwrak> the problem is that the patches need to react to the music. they don't do this without help. very simple. you're selling a car but you tell them it doesn't need fuel. sure, you can still admire the design and hide in it from the rain, but you're still kinda missing the point :)
<wolfspraul> true
<kristianpaul> 2. can i do multiple M1 talk each others?
<wolfspraul> sensitivity detection needs to improve
<wolfspraul> lots of small features
<wolfspraul> but we are not feverishly hacking on it and adding features and releasing updates
<wolfspraul> don't tell me
<kristianpaul> 3. can i control effects with objects (computer vision)?
<wpwrak> exactly :)
<wolfspraul> I fully agree with you that the audio sensitivity level thing is bad
<wolfspraul> as always your feedback just is 'common sense' and good (you wrote it on the list I think)
<wolfspraul> so who can add it?
<wolfspraul> xiangfu?
<wolfspraul> maybe, but it will be slow. eventually we'll get to it.
<kristianpaul> 4. can i do that same effects on my computer? ;-) (i poitend project M)
<wolfspraul> Sebastien wants to be in the evening news first, so there we'll wait a bit too :-)
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: can you look into the depth of software and IC design to find out how M1 can auto-detect audio sensitivity better?
<wolfspraul> it may be tough, but even if it takes 6 months, eventually we'll add it...
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: yes 3. that's possible but requires serious hacking I believe.
<wpwrak> 6 months is about what i'd estimate for this kind of research. isn't not a simple "implement this algorithm" kind of thing ...
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yes i explain that too
<wolfspraul> well thanks a lot for doing that workshop!
<wolfspraul> did the marketing material reach you in time?
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, I will try that.
<wolfspraul> (sounds like no...)
<kristianpaul> afaik not
<wolfspraul> yeah
<wolfspraul> well, then for the next chance
<wolfspraul> alright, cool
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: so you have a contact at lantern now?
<kristianpaul> 5. oh, so i can manufacture it my self and implement more effects?
<wpwrak> i want 3., too :)
<wolfspraul> someone you can contact once we have png/mov from usb stick?
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, yes. I have one.
<wolfspraul> (which I'd say is at least 1 year out :-))
<wolfspraul> ok good
<wolfspraul> then back to hacking
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, this guy is a vj. he combine some .mov files under MacOS/Modul8 and display it with projector.
<kristianpaul> about material i still can contact some people later
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: sure ;-)
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, I am not sure if he can decide anything. he is listen to Miao.
<wpwrak> regarding the NOR, with the new reset chip, i had a bit of trouble getting the M1 to boot. not sure why - could be something transient (ions still in solution after rework, etc.). it now cycles nicely.
<kristianpaul> but man i agree with rejon, still missing more introductory material,
<xiangfu> he don't have any idea about the m1. he is waiting miao's order. (from my understanding)
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: good! How did you like what he showed you with mac/modul8 ?
<kristianpaul> i had some surprises with video_a variable :)
<kristianpaul> afaik i dont track adn dig FN code all days ;)
<wolfspraul> I don't think m1 is competitive with what a VJ can do with notebook+software. at least until today I have yet to run into a VJ that would confirm what that would be.
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, it not react to music. maybe a little bit cool. but I can do that too.(by download those small .mov from website. and learn some this 'modul8' :)
<wolfspraul> video latency? maybe. still trying to find a vj who tells me they like/want that and it's better than on their notebook.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think you should really focus on advertizing it to VJs. ask the clubs if they can give you a list of local VJs that played there. arrange a gratis performance. maybe some clubs will even like it so much that they buy one. then you may even get some club-owned M1s ;-)
<wolfspraul> we do that already
<wolfspraul> and we sold to some
<wolfspraul> I think it's off to a good start
<wolfspraul> but people want lots of features, naturally
<wolfspraul> right?
<wolfspraul> and adding features on m1 is tough/slow
<wpwrak> yeah. always :)
<wpwrak> that too :)
<wolfspraul> so we have to break through this boundary
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: I think it sounds like that was a worthwhile trip still
<wolfspraul> you learnt some things, saw the location, got feedback
<xiangfu> I talk to the dj a lot. try to understand how he works. I learn that.
<wpwrak> (boundary) yes, how ?
<wolfspraul> good!
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: Linux
<wolfspraul> rtems may have been what got M1 off from the ground, but Linux is what can take it to the next level
<wpwrak> how ?
<wpwrak> i agree
<wolfspraul> yeah how
<wolfspraul> pray to the gods, every morning
<wolfspraul> "oh Linux gods, hear me"
<wolfspraul> "can you boot please"
<wolfspraul> "and run flawlessly"
<wolfspraul> "and upstream yourself"
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> i see rtems as a dead end. corner and paint, with sebastien trying to sneak out of that corner already :)
<wolfspraul> something like that
<wolfspraul> "oh and can you please also make a mmu fall from the sky"
<wolfspraul> I will try next couple mornings
<xiangfu> if the idea(buy a milkymist one) is from a VJ. then the club manager maybe can easy agree.
<wpwrak> an mmu may not be all that hard, if you accept that it's crazily inefficient
<wpwrak> the perfect mmu has been discussed, too. but of course, not implemented
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: what did the vj you met there think of m1?
<wolfspraul> for m1 to take off with more vjs, we need documentation, documentation, documentation
<xiangfu> in Lantern is like the club manager force the vj to use milkymist one. and the vj don't want to put any time learn how m1 works.
<wolfspraul> many more entry points
<wolfspraul> samples
<wolfspraul> handbook
<stekern> wolfspraul: I'd say aroun 350-400¬ would be a fair price for board only
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, he say nothing. when I finish. he always talk with other people. there is no question from him. the only one is. "how can I copy the .mov file to m1 and performance it "
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> welcome to the real world
<wolfspraul> stekern: email me at wolfgang@sharism.cc, we can work this out
<wolfspraul> I need to find a suitable board for you
<wolfspraul> even cheaper maybe, I need to see and can give you some options
<wolfspraul> and - thanks a lot for even considering this!
<wolfspraul> you know our Milkymist community is a bit on the extreme side of life :-) we need new blood to balance it out...
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: actually i like (for now) i can check that libc see what it does and implement my own printf :)
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, ( we need new blood to balance it out...) totally true. some idea from real vj.  :)
<wolfspraul> xiangfu: it sounds like you did really well. thanks a lot for going there, and don't worry about not selling.
<wolfspraul> did you give some stickers and brochures to xiaowu for jon?
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, maybe I stay in develop too much time. Xiaowu said I totally don't understand how  to be a good saleman and how to sale m1 to Lantern without .png/.oov
<xiangfu> .mov
<wpwrak> xiangfu: so the vj is basically asking M1 to not be in his way. he doesn't need it, but if management obliges him to use it, he will. maybe with his stuff coming from the laptop on composite video and M1 just displaying it ;))
<xiangfu> wolfspraul, yes. I keep 7 stickers and 7 brochures form me. all others give xiaowu.
<xiangfu> wpwrak, :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: i can give you a few printf implementations that run very nicely on linux ... but, honestly, most of the time, i'm just fine with the one in libc ;-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: interesting way of marketing-to-clubs even backfiring with the "native" clientele :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: can you give me some examples how to use the FPU in milkymist inside a baremetal app? i havent time too look at it yet tough..
<wpwrak> uh, no idea, sorry
<wolfspraul> backfiring what?
<kristianpaul> ;-)
<xiangfu> oh. we should add one feature. like switch patches by react to audio. that will be cool.
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: sure sure, i mean i like my M1 a lot, besides i'm not full (but not zero) interested on visual effects (wich looks better on a frien'ds bar) i do enjoy HDL part, altought i still making some mistakes.. :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: ah i tought you we're playing with simd in the M1, so i read backlog incorrectly
<xiangfu> one patch for long time is not good. very fast switch those patches is very cool. maybe we add some random switch.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: VJ hating the M1, because management makes him use it. maybe he just hates it that this is being decided over his head.
<wolfspraul> nah, that's xiangfu's impression from one metting
<wolfspraul> meeting
<wolfspraul> all is good
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the reality distortion field seems to be working. at least the part with the blinds ;-)
<wolfspraul> I don't think M1 can do anything the typical VJ "always wanted to do but never could get it to work with my notebook/software"
<wolfspraul> if so, tell me what
<wolfspraul> meanwhile they can do DOZENS of things on their notebook/software M1 cannot do
<kristianpaul> they dont hate M1, in my experience they tought it lack some features compared to some soft that run on mac, but that alredy know i guess
<wolfspraul> yep
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> "lack some features" may be an understatement
<xiangfu> :)
<kristianpaul> actually last feedback from VJ i got was about missing support for static and moving pictures (video clips) on patches
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: one thing about the M1 is that it needs heavy customizing. it's an instrument. so it's quite unsuitable for a VJ if the club provides it. it's like someone giving you their PC.
<kristianpaul> s/lack/miss
<stekern> wolfspraul: mail sent
<wolfspraul> hopefully nocarrier took his m1 with him to tokyo
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: really? :-)
<wolfspraul> that's something we've never heard of :-)
<wolfspraul> (kidding)
<kristianpaul> :-)
<wolfspraul> instrument
<wolfspraul> I agree
<wolfspraul> but then you qickly run into the usb-midi problem, or controller
<wolfspraul> a guitar with no strings?
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: SIMD was about camera in pixel processing. a very specialized subsystem in the video data path.
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: ah, but was a wishlist then?
<wpwrak> yes, usb-mini sucks. today, i bought a kaossilator pro. that one can also do midi out. legacy midi. plus it can make music (my old kaossilator broke, so i was looking for an excuse to get the pro anyway)
<wpwrak> the next challenge will be to get the M1 to do something useful with the MIDI data. it sees it, at least sometimes. i'm less certain about its ability to actually act on it for switching patches. but we'll see.
<wpwrak> and i still need to find out how/if i can make midi affect patch parameters
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (wish list) kinda, yes
<wpwrak> legacy midi is dying fast. i think the low-cost segment (< 200) is already USB-only
<xiangfu> (and i still need to find out how/if i can make midi affect patch parameters) there are 8 parameter in flickernoise. if that you want?
<wpwrak> well, tehre's one with legacy MIDI < USD 200: Korg KPC1 padKONTROL
<wolfspraul> [it sees it, sometimes] sounds scary. hopefully not electrical problems?
<wpwrak> xiangfu: could be, yes. i'll also have to have a way to tell FN which midi channel (?) provides these values
<wolfspraul> man we need better documentation everywhere
<wolfspraul> :-)
<kristianpaul> i'm working on some basis about hdl doc, just give me some time !
<kristianpaul> will be cool at least if memcard core have more comments in the code too :-)
<wpwrak> dunno. could just be the GUI missing some messages. or maybe the stack. or maybe it just doesn't quite know what to do with buttons. it seems to get the piano well enough.
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: oh great
<wolfspraul> hearing "give me some time" from me does make me wonder though :-)
<wolfspraul> things like: will I be alive to see the results?
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> (you see I'm in joke mood today...)
<kristianpaul> http://milkymist.org/wiki/ <- how to
<wolfspraul> TAKE YOUR TIME!
<wolfspraul> s/from me/from you/
<wpwrak> i haven't tried knobs yet. ah, and i got a nanoKONTROL2, too. classical case of "it's so cheap, there's no point in not buying it". it's of course USB-only. so it'll need the PC to bounce back the messages.
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: no really i do _care_ a lot about documentation
<kristianpaul> yes i'm realizing you like jokes a lot, even more that werner perhaps? ;-)
<Guest29224> xiangfu, i'm adam; could you take an eye on this log to see where's possible err behind? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/hardware/milkymist_one/production/rc3/test_results/log/urjtag_lock_tmp_6F.log
<kristianpaul> also i care about my sleep so bye :)
<wolfspraul> n8
<xiangfu> Guest29224, I am not sure. seems like the signal between FPGA ---- NOR is not stable.
<xiangfu> Guest29224, or the NOR is broken?
<xiangfu> adam ^
<Guest29224> the board after my heat air on fpga and nor chips, now it's booted and CRC images all passed. good news is that implied surely poor soldering on either under bga(i.e. bga balls) or nor chip's pad sodering. The bad new is I missed an clear investigation through x-ray inspection to check. Although this board is able to boot but will be frozen after couples seconds rendering.
<xiangfu> Guest29224, then it maybe FPGA  soldering problem?
<Guest29224> if i dump bit stream image to see if frozen while rendering will help to discover a RESCUE APP caused possibly or else BITSTREAM?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: another product would be a notebook
<wolfspraul> maybe too close to Ya, don't know. maybe big Ya?
<wpwrak> notebooks are a busy segment. and you need fairly good specs to not look silly.
<Guest29224> xiangfu, i surely think it's a soldering problem, but I don't want always to use heat air on fpga chip. Will a dump of standby bitstream can help? since I don't think so.
<wpwrak> also, components are more expensive than a ya. did you mention you found some financing ? :)
<xiangfu> Guest29224, do CRC first when there is frozen.
<xiangfu> Guest29224, when there is error. dump them maybe help.
<Guest29224> xiangfu, checked done. CRC showed all passed when first frozen happened.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: hmm
<wolfspraul> maybe 'notebook' is not a good name
<wolfspraul> of course it cannot compete with a multi-ghz intel chip
<wolfspraul> and the rf side will be lacking, and many other details
<wolfspraul> screen resolution :-)
<wolfspraul> maybe just bigger ya?
<wolfspraul> do you see the Ya as having the same form factor as Ben?
<wolfspraul> or can it be bigger?
<wolfspraul> full-size keyboard?
<Guest29224> xiangfu, what's meaning of this? http://dpaste.com/642420/
<wpwrak> no. ben-ish. maybe a few mm more, but not a lot.
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> ok
<wpwrak> if it's small, people are more likely to forgive weak specs :)
<wolfspraul> btw, about faderfox. was this your best companion for m1? http://www.faderfox.de/mark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=165&Itemid=239
<wpwrak> of course, the GHz race on smartphones will eventually change that, too ...
<wolfspraul> nah, I don't think so
<xiangfu> Guest29224, this is a test mode. when you hold the left button while power-on.
<wolfspraul> you underestimate the flexibility of users
<wolfspraul> first of all stuff has to work
<wpwrak> yes, the LV3 is the one that looks best to me, based on my so far only theoretical understanding of patch control
<xiangfu> Guest29224, check the buttons again. make sure them is not stuck/hold . boot again.
<wolfspraul> and LV3 can be hooked up to m1 today?
<wpwrak> not directly, because it's USB-MIDI. but apparently, you could connect it via a PC with USB-MIDI adapter (USD 15 in argentina, so 1-2 g of low-quality rice in china :)
<wpwrak> or, of course, add USB-MIDI support :)
<wolfspraul> ouch
<wolfspraul> ok
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> usb-midi
<Guest29224> xiangfu, why it shows "Memory test failed, entering manual mode."? and you saw it was a btn problem?
<wolfspraul> he sells it for 210 EUR + vat
<wolfspraul> where I would estimate the bom solidly less than 50 EUR
<wolfspraul> the famous bom
<wolfspraul> we should advise him to sell for 99 EUR to sell more :-)
<wolfspraul> I will contact him about m1
<wolfspraul> maybe we can sell as a bundle or so
<wpwrak> they may all be hand-made ;-)
<wolfspraul> of course needs to add usb-midi on our side
<wolfspraul> oh I think it's fine
<wolfspraul> 250 EUR for a nice little controller like this, it's ok
<xiangfu> Guest29224, sorry. forget my last mesage. can you use werner's tool for load the bitstream.
<Guest29224> xiangfu, i'm dumping standby first. Where's load the bitstream?
<Guest29224> xiangfu, okay..good thanks
<xiangfu> Guest29224, oh. it BIOS problem. or hardware problem. so we should dump bios first
<xiangfu> Guest29224, I am add this small feature to this script file.
<xiangfu> Guest29224, wait one memont
<xiangfu> moment
<xiangfu> Guest29224, finish please update reflash_m1.sh
<xiangfu> Guest29224, read bios is : './reflash_m1.sh --read-flash bios'
<GitHub197> [scripts] xiangfu pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/1qEhgQ
<GitHub197> [scripts/master] reflash_m1.sh: add --read-flash parameters - Xiangfu Liu
<Guest29224> xiangfu, great tks
<wolfspraul> ok I checked the artix-7 datasheet and it appears it does not offer boot (configuration) options beyond spi and parallel nor
<wpwrak> also not boot from MCU ? spartan has that
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> (for the record)
<wolfspraul> those are both short, wondering where the full datasheet is
<wpwrak> that looks right. let's see ..
<wpwrak> yeah, about the same as the spartan
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> the only way to get it to load from a memcard would be another chip that shuffles it into memory first
<wpwrak> yup. yet another avr ? ;-)
<lekernel> wolfspraul, did you know that RTEMS supports libpng, libjpeg and probably other image libraries with the exact same API as Linux?
<wolfspraul> no
<wolfspraul> the Linux thing is long-term
<wolfspraul> you are right - until FN works on Linux without regressions from rtems, no need to do anything
<wolfspraul> what are things/features a VJ can do on M1 that are different from quartz/resolume/modul8/vvvv ?
<wolfspraul> maybe we should appeal to the pioneering VJs, I think some are quite open-minded to hacking and diving to deep levels of visual manipulation
<lekernel> well, the whole principle is different
<lekernel> those programs basically alpha-blend video clips with some graphics primitives, with things like color shifts, chroma key, etc.
<lekernel> it's actually simpler than the FN processing in many cases
<wolfspraul> ok, and how does FN differ from that alpha blending with color shifts, chroma key, etc. ?
<lekernel> FN is entirely based on video feedback + distortion, mixing live video (not clips) and a few graphics primitives (borders, waves, etc.)
<lekernel> the main thing that traditional VJ software can do and FN cannot is play video clips
<lekernel> and controls from a separate screen
<lekernel> that's about it
<wolfspraul> no need to catch up, we should highlight what is different
<lekernel> FN right now is very different than the other VJ software, which unfortunately seems strongly implanted
<lekernel> hence my idea of the desperatemist, to give them an easy way to taste it ...
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> just a video manipulation box?
<wolfspraul> the distorter
<lekernel> well, basically yes
<wolfspraul> ok let me re-read your feature list with my mind set on 'distorter'
<wolfspraul> do you think internal-mic only will be enough to get quality input data for the visual effects, with accurate sensitivity in multiple frequency bands etc?
<wolfspraul> somehow it feels like line-in will give you a much better starting point in the typical vj/party/event environment
<wolfspraul> second question - how do you see the networking of that board?
<wolfspraul> in terms of pricing, two things stand out. nor flash 10.50 usd, adv7181c ca. 12 usd
<wolfspraul> I don't think that's very important, but you zoom in on a number of smaller items so I thought I highlight those
<lekernel> well, as Werner suggested we can use serial flash
<lekernel> in theory it shouldn't be much fuss
<wolfspraul> I'm not suggesting that
<lekernel> he, it's a new design. it would even make PCB routing easier.
<wolfspraul> how about my 2 questions
<wolfspraul> 1. is mic-in enough for vj use case? sensitivity in different frequency bands etc?
<wolfspraul> 2. what is the networking of that board?
<lekernel> 1. I think so, and we can improve it in software (including in the current M1)
<lekernel> 2. either Ethernet (for updates, file transfers and development) or none
<wolfspraul> ok, will keep thinking
<wolfspraul> the new board seems cannot do anything that the existing m1 could not do. except for digital video which we have a good plan for with dvi-i.
<lekernel> no, I told you it's an entry-level spinoff
<wolfspraul> how about my idea of focusing it around a new product?
<wolfspraul> like a camera
<wolfspraul> something different, mobile maybe, or towards rf/dsp as you mentioned once?
<wolfspraul> if cost would be our only concern, it would always be cheaper to just discount our existing product
<wolfspraul> but if that's the case it's just another way of saying that Milkymist cannot create any meaningful value, not a good sign going forward
<wolfspraul> so I'd rather focus on explaining why Milkymist is unique and good
<wolfspraul> I will think a bit more about 'distorter', maybe I finally get it
<wolfspraul> but no networking, wow
<wolfspraul> maybe over USB :-)
<lekernel> yeah, why not, hopefully we'll get the cheap hackers on board this time
<wolfspraul> 'why not' refers to what?
<wolfspraul> I think you are a little lost as to what you want to achieve with the minimist
<wolfspraul> other than the masses cheering, of course
<lekernel> no networking
<lekernel> and over USB
<wolfspraul> ok
<lekernel> masses cheering is a major concern in my view. people have never heard about the M1 just because of the silence.
<lekernel> and we have tried: Linux Magazine France (2x), Linux-Magazin Germany (2x), Slashdot (2x), The Register, Make Magazine (3x), Xcell, and more
<lekernel> plus at least as many conferences
<lekernel> seems nothing will do
<lekernel> ah and I forgot Elektor (in 4 languages) in the list
<lekernel> of course, we can simply use vaporware and no actual product
<lekernel> ;)
<wolfspraul> I like raspberry, I think he will deliver (guess)
<wolfspraul> Milkymist One has every potential to be an outstanding product and computer, that seems to me to be the best option to lift that up and market it.
<wolfspraul> but of course a new idea may be even better, so who knows
<wolfspraul> I think we should pump up M1 for a few years, of course trying to build a real business with it
<wolfspraul> and in that process we can add and remove features
<lekernel> for new ideas... PR first and if it's not appearing on google trends, give it up
<wolfspraul> but I would do it all organically
<lekernel> I don't want any other superfrustrating experience like M1
<wolfspraul> he :-)
<wolfspraul> if you don't enjoy hacking on Milkymist or M1 you shouldn't
<wolfspraul> just wait a while and see whether the motivation comes back maybe
<lekernel> well, I really used to. but the silence has been depressing lately.
<wolfspraul> M1 is just out, and many people like it. they all want more features though :-)
<wolfspraul> silence?
<wolfspraul> everybody wants features
<wolfspraul> documentation
<lekernel> well, yes, that's one plus :-)
<wolfspraul> more patches
<wolfspraul> forum
<wolfspraul> and and and
<lekernel> yes, I hear you
<wolfspraul> well that's not bad, that's why I think we should continue to charge a premium and try to grow the sales and deliver the features people want.
<lekernel> but I mean, look at google trends. terrible...
<wolfspraul> I would not disagree with you
<wolfspraul> the story is not clear
<wolfspraul> like a sculpture, but big parts are still unsculpted
<wolfspraul> I think that's a side-effect of Milkymist being so ambitious
<wolfspraul> people don't understand IC design, fpgas, many of the tools in that area
<wolfspraul> so you say "you can build great products with that"
<wolfspraul> they will say "ok, show me"
<wolfspraul> "something like the iphone?"
<wolfspraul> we have to proove ourselves
<wolfspraul> that's how I see M1
<wolfspraul> I'm amazed by how much it can do today, not by how much is missing (=could be added)
<wolfspraul> why don't we wait for Simon's feedback
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> you like them, and I'm positive too though I didn't meet in person
<wolfspraul> I have a vague idea what the feedback will be, but we see soon. They have the very best of our efforts in their hands soon...
<wolfspraul> you showed M1 to Massimo, what did he think?
<lekernel> he didn't see it running, just the packaging
<wolfspraul> hmm, ok
<wolfspraul> you need a few hours conversation
<wolfspraul> to talk about m1 the product, milkymist the underlying technology, your thoughts on marketing ("popularity") etc
<lekernel> some Edirol people saw it (at the vision-r festival) and were amazed
<lekernel> that was a rc2 running, without packaging
<wolfspraul> maybe we just haven't demoed to the right person yet :-)
<lekernel> also: I had set it up myself. seems people have problems with the GUI, for example even Yi didn't figure out how to map patches on the keyboard
<lekernel> otoh I don't find modul8 etc. very user-friendly either, but there is a lot of documentation and even workshops, mostly from users in fact ...
<lekernel> chicken/egg problem
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> I think our main competition is the notebook, at least from a VJ perspective
<wolfspraul> unless you see m1 differently like a video art box, Jon found www.turningart.com for example
<wolfspraul> so if the main competition is the notebook, we should work on features that differentiate us from notebooks
<wolfspraul> I would definitely leave the MIDI there, for example, even though it's going away, or precisely because it is going away.
<wolfspraul> video-in is good, maybe even multiple video-in ?
<wolfspraul> DMX is good
<wolfspraul> USB needs to become stronger
<wolfspraul> we know roughly what to expect from notebooks in the future
<wolfspraul> more megahertz, more ram, less connectors, more rf
<wolfspraul> we need to work on features that are relatively easy to be implemented in our architecture, but hard on a notebook
<wolfspraul> plus documentation
<wolfspraul> it will take years, really
<wolfspraul> for low-cost, like I described yesterday I believe in the approach of upgrading the tech on the main product, and then selling older revs at cost
<wolfspraul> that solves all problems at once, and that's what a brand company is typically doing
<wolfspraul> if you upgrade a key chip (s-6 to a-7), and then provide this upgrade on a low-cost version, well. that's something I have never seen before :-)
<wolfspraul> if that's the whole story, then it looks like self-destruct
<wolfspraul> the upgrade needs to come out on top, and the older stuff is sold at cost
<lekernel> you're overestimating a-7
<lekernel> anyway
<wolfspraul> yes I don't want to read too much into it
<wolfspraul> just explaining my low-cost thinking
<wolfspraul> I think we can make the lowest-cost milkymist device
<wolfspraul> for example you kick out the VGA DAC, why not
<wolfspraul> that saves 5-6 USD I think, lemme check...
<wolfspraul> not even that. 3.55 USD it saves.
<wolfspraul> but you leave the video-in adv7181, a chip that costs 12 USD
<wolfspraul> can the functionality of the adv7181 be implemented cheaper?
<wolfspraul> why insist on analog video-in, why not digital video-in?
<lekernel> a lot more work
<wolfspraul> yes :-)
<wolfspraul> but you said 'low cost'
<wolfspraul> so how important is low cost now?
<wolfspraul> what pricepoint is the one we *have to* reach?
<wolfspraul> the answer is: we don't know
<wolfspraul> you just try "as low as possible"
<wolfspraul> but you stop when it's "too much work"
<wolfspraul> I cannot see the wisdom in this.
<wolfspraul> too much or too little work normally doesn't matter. the question is which work is profitable.
<wolfspraul> but that we cannot answer
<wolfspraul> so we kick out the 3.55 USD vga dac, just because? why not?
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> but we leave the 12 USD video-in adc because it's too much work to replace it
<lekernel> sounds logical
<wolfspraul> you could make similar arguments around the 10.50 usd nor, it's just not clear whether it's worth for us to replace it or not
<wolfspraul> because we have no volume forecast, no price testing
<lekernel> sure, but replacing it with serial flash is a lot less work than HDMI input
<wolfspraul> my argument is that some of those decisions look random
<lekernel> no, they're all about trying to make a cheap M1 spinoff without taking months or years
<wolfspraul> is the artix-7 even available yet?
<wolfspraul> we achieve your goal with a pcba only of the current m1
<lekernel> ok. now when and how do we announce it?
<wolfspraul> ask bearstech. I can make boards in the rc4 run, bearstech needs to sell them.
<wolfspraul> btw, is artix-7 available or not?
<wolfspraul> you are making all sorts of arguments and avoid questions :-) probably the ones that wouldn't fit in your theory :-)
<wolfspraul> let's see what octopart says
<lekernel> which questions did I avoid exactly? a7 availability? I don't know we have to ask Xilinx, and in either case it's a trivial replacement from s6
<lekernel> to reduce FPGA cost, there could also be the option of using the 6slx25
<wolfspraul> I said "decisions look random"
<lekernel> <wolfspraul> my argument is that some of those decisions look random
<lekernel> <lekernel> no, they're all about trying to make a cheap M1 spinoff without taking months or years
<wolfspraul> to which you said "they are all about trying to make a cheap m1 spinoff without taking months or years"
<wolfspraul> that made me scratch my head about a-7 :-)
<wolfspraul> let's take the bearstech route. I think they mentioned bare pcba already
<lekernel> FWIW the s6 wasn't more available than the a7 is now when I started the M1 schematics (that was in sep2009, you weren't there by then). I trust Xilinx will deliver them.
<wolfspraul> to which I replied positively in my last mail, but then haven't heard back in weeks
<wolfspraul> of course
<wolfspraul> but you said "without taking months or years"
<wolfspraul> then your new board starts with an a-7
<wolfspraul> I must be allowed to point out the inconsistency.
<lekernel> yes, as a potential alternative to s6
<wolfspraul> I think the a-7 selection pretty much makes sure that this will take at least 6 months, if not 1 year.
<wolfspraul> I will reply to the same bearstech mail again
<wolfspraul> you were cc'ed
<wolfspraul> they asked, I replied
<wolfspraul> so this idea is not new and already moving
<lekernel> so? in this case we can try to fit the design in a 6slx25. as I said the a-7 upgrade is TRIVIAL.
<lekernel> it doesn't matter much to start a new design with a7 or s6
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> I would never touch the fpga size for a bom difference of 5 or 10 usd. this pretty much guarantees frustration later on (months or years later), when people find out they have one or the other chip.
<wolfspraul> you must be really sure that this bom difference is worth the frustration later on
<wolfspraul> it's not about going up or down, but since you have one size now, moving away from that size is risky for your developer community
<wolfspraul> it will cause trouble and frustration later
<wolfspraul> that's just a general comment
<wolfspraul> if you feel the bigger size is *never* needed, then sure let's go for it
<wolfspraul> also on the main m1 then :-) it's an optimization!
<wolfspraul> otherwise why not increase the one on m1 to slx75? it becomes guesswork.
<wolfspraul> I would not touch the size, unless you clearly now know, more than "5 usd bom diff".
<wolfspraul> typo: unless you clearly know why
<wolfspraul> we need to know the exact target of this board better
<lekernel> ok
<wolfspraul> I will reply to bearstech, they already asked!
<lekernel> end of this discussion; I give up
<lekernel> we go with the raw PCBAs
<wolfspraul> do you remember bearstech asking?
<lekernel> yes I do
<wolfspraul> this was/is already moving
<wolfspraul> ok
<wolfspraul> relax. your ideas are good, don't misunderstand me. I'm just thinking through the various choices and try to understand them.
<wolfspraul> I believe in low-cost, I will manfacture and sell stuff at cost, even subsidized (as long as I can afford that :-))
<lekernel> and btw, the slx45 choice was also what you would call "guesswork", which wasn't too bad in the end as the damn thing worked
<wolfspraul> of course
<wolfspraul> but now that we have it, there are considerations of developer confusion if you change
<wolfspraul> that's just how it is
<wolfspraul> you try to grow the Milkymist community, I'm sure. not make sure the ones you have leave out of frustration :-)
<wolfspraul> I think we should focus on the M1 product, make that the absolute best product. the rest will sort itself out.
<wolfspraul> I owe you more marketing work, so let's see
<wolfspraul> me and Jon are full power motivated and active on this
<lekernel> the rest will sort itself out? hum, well. given how the slightest bit of vaporware from the right people makes so much fuss compared to whatever I can do, I'm really starting to doubt it unfortunately
<wpwrak> ... 2016 ... and click ... 2017 ... and click ...
<wpwrak> (PR) except for Make, they're all IT-centric. perhaps not the favourite hangout for VJs. but .. i also think that M1 isn't quite consumer-ready yet. still too many loose ends.
<wpwrak> also elektor is quite niche
<wpwrak> (phew .. so much stuff to catch up with. can't you guys be a little less chatty while i sleep some 3 hours ? :)
<wpwrak> (simon) btw, who is that ? i see that name mentioned a lot.
<wpwrak> (artix-7) wolfspraul, have you learned nothing at openmoko ? :) using a brand-new chip like this is not just shooting your own foot, but first poisoning it, hacking it off, putting it through a meat grinder, burning it, and throwing the ashes into a nuclear reactor
<lekernel> s6 was equally new at the beginning of M1. anyway, this conversation is over.
<lekernel> Simon is the guy behind mslpro.co.uk
<kristianpaul> but at least with s6 we're devkit already isnt? you played a lot with that ml410 boar i guess
<kristianpaul> that was in the same 2009?
<wpwrak> (a7) ah, i see that it's already been killed. good ;-)
<wpwrak> by the way, there are many other ways to get M1 to poor developers, one of them being discounts or even freebies. wolfgang doesn't like freebies and i can understand his reasoning. but then, creating a new project which will costs thousands of dollars just in external costs, plus tens of thousands in work hours (even if only virtual), just to create an object you can sell a few hundred dollars cheaper simply doesn't make sense
<wpwrak> so to get the real price calculation, you would have to consider just how much it costs to do the new thing. plus, what you could do to improve M1 at the same time / with the same resources.
<wpwrak> (checking mslpro ...)
<kristianpaul> i hope from xilinx a cheap version of dev board just like that LX9 but this time for -7 family :)
<wpwrak> lekernel: and speaking of motivation, nothing is more demotivating than when the lead developer of a project is abandoning it. you're picking a very bad moment for your frustrations. you have to do a lot of cheerleading in the open source world. people come to active, exciting projects. projects that make it easy for them to get involved. make some small contribution, see how it goes. maybe try something bigger afterwards. grow the invol
<wpwrak> vement over time.
<wpwrak> if the project is kinda dead, a lot will feel intimidated. there are a lot more people willing to do small things and to help and follow than people who are willing to lead.
<kristianpaul> and i would consider wait that devkit from xilinx before others not xilinx trying to do it so (therically speaking they do)
<wpwrak> also, those few who are walking around, looking for projects to take over tend to be the not so nice folk
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: using a barely announced complex chip for a key function is extremely dangerous. if you have absolutely no other choice, fine. then you organize your project around the chip. if there are bugs, you spend whatever resources you need to work around them. if you can't work around them, you wait for the next silicon revision. etc.
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: if you run out of resources before the chip is stable or your market has since moved elsewhere, your project dies because of the chip. it's a bad risk to take. i've seen projects run into great turmoil because of immature chips.
<kristianpaul> sure i understand the dangerous part, thats my point of let xilinx/avnet produce cheap devel boards ;-)
<kristianpaul> i hope they will as lekernel hope the a7 will be cheaper that s6 :)
<lekernel> I'm not abandoning it, I'm just pointing out we have a severe publicity problem
<lekernel> in fact I'll probably start doing those things - image support, USB/MIDI and fixing the lag bug - in about two weeks
<wpwrak> my experience with M1, which is very little, because my M1 spends most of its time power-cycling, but still, suggests that it's excessively hard to actually make it do something great. not just boring "demo mode", but something where you experience the real power. the difficulty has a number of reasons. some are easy to fix (e.g., documentation), some harder (e.g., more understandable workflow), some very hard (peripherals)
<kristianpaul> what about recducing learning curve a bit for the already M1 we have, i mean some more tips about milkdrop/FB etc... you are the experienced  :)
<wpwrak> so in its present state, i would consider M1 more like an advanced proof of concept than something i'd feel comfortable throwing at users. developers are a different case. they're used to things not working and being weird
<wpwrak> but the barrier of entry for developers is also very steep. not only from the technical side, but also from the motivation side. there is a chicken and egg problem there. if you already have a vibrant developer community, more will come. if you don't, it's a very hard sell, no matter how cool it is.
<wpwrak> also, many developers will not feel the need to improve M1. their personal itch will be something else. you can try to get developers via the "toy" angle, but also this isn't easy. and your cost structure doesn't give you a lot of room there.
<wpwrak> lekernel: (usb, bug fixing) wonderful !!!! :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: i think support kinda works for reducing the learning curve. if i pester lekernel for about half a week with questions and spend the time he's away/sleeping searching the clues elsewhere (source, web, depends on the issue), then i can figure out what i need to know :)
<wpwrak> latest example, the controller :)
<wpwrak> also, often, at the end of such a journey, i'm a little scared. because i may find/realize things that others should have brought up. if they haven't, that means that gave up much earlier.
<wpwrak> the risk here is that people may simply misunderstand what the M1 can do. either because they started with low expectations or because they lowered their expectations because they didn't see a way forward.
<wpwrak> and of course, if this happens even before a potential purchase decision, there goes another customer
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: oh sure, i just taling about a single poing of information, but not all people do that, well i hope they do all think that way..
<kristianpaul> way forward, yes
<kristianpaul> not all people join irc to concact main developer..
<kristianpaul> also i wonder you have to tell (first was milkdrop history) to very one.. instead just start over with milkymist
<wpwrak> lekernel: the people buying M1 today are basically the avantgarde of the avantgarde, maybe personal friends of some of the protagonists, and a few crazy folks with a loose hand on the wallet
<kristianpaul> :-)
<roh> you guys think too much about details totally nonscientific
<kristianpaul> ok back to event, i'll try talk with more people about M1 today :)
<kristianpaul> yes roh :)
<roh> if you ask me... people are not scientific or deterministic. they are weird, unlogical, pathological, extreme.. but never something to 'expect'
<wpwrak> roh: did you skip your autism pills again ? ;-)
<wolfspraul> lekernel: had another thought about 'publicity'
<wolfspraul> you had the slashdot article
<wolfspraul> it pointed to milkymist.org I believe
<wolfspraul> what conversion rates did you see?
<wolfspraul> how many people subscribed to the mailing list?
<wolfspraul> how many people followed the milkymistvj twitter account?
<wolfspraul> how much time did those visitors spend on milkymist.org?
<lekernel> one, and about 10 on twitter
<lekernel> that's little :(
<wolfspraul> I'm asking because I think those numbers will all be pretty bad
<wolfspraul> I for sure had zero sales
<wolfspraul> you should think about that
<wolfspraul> you are basically asking the world to send more people to you
<wolfspraul> if 10k are not enough, then they should send 100k to you, or 1 million
<wolfspraul> so that you have another 50 twitter followers?
<wolfspraul> we have to work on our side, the conversion rate
<wolfspraul> the story is unattractive
<wolfspraul> even ads would most likely just be wasted money right now
<wolfspraul> the tech is good now
<wolfspraul> we can focus on the story now
<lekernel> we only had 2.7k from slashdot this time
<wolfspraul> that conversion rate should give you something to think about
<wolfspraul> I think the article was the least commented on that day
<wolfspraul> probably also the least read
<wolfspraul> it goes down with every click :-)
<wolfspraul> so in the 10 you add 10 twitter followed from a slashdot article!
<wolfspraul> sorry, typo "in the end"
<lekernel> yes, that's pretty bad too
<wolfspraul> if the story would be attractive, you might expect 1000 twitter followers, or more
<wolfspraul> I'm *not* pointing fingers at you
<wolfspraul> it's really just to think
<wolfspraul> I need to work better too
<lekernel> no but I'm just saying it's bad, without pointing fingers to anyone
<wolfspraul> ok good
<wolfspraul> I agree with you
<wolfspraul> the media coverage so far is not bad imho
<wolfspraul> our conversion rate sucks
<wolfspraul> maybe that's a hint that the story/message is unattractive
<wolfspraul> we can ask for more media coverage now, or work on it. or we work on a better conversion rate first, or in parallel.
<wolfspraul> it was just a thought I had...
<wolfspraul> because sometimes it seems you demand from others to send interested viewers your way :-)
<wolfspraul> but maybe just very very few people are interested in what we have right now, no matter how 'big' the coverage would be
<roh> wpwrak: naaah. i dont take no pills (luckily)
<wolfspraul> I don't think it's the technology
<wolfspraul> the tech is very unique and inspiring etc. and works today.
<roh> wpwrak: i am just saying that instead of bickering about theories about humans and buying behaviour we should rather make the product better than add details to theoretical foobar
<roh> there are 2 kinds of people. one buy because stuff is nice/they believe
<lekernel> roh, I believe one of the most important things is to go through this 'bickering'. we (or at least I) have been doing that for 4 years already; meanwhile, people like the makers of this SoC breakout board immediately get popular without shipping a single device.
<roh> the seconds are people who buy because the device fulfulls a list of technical requirements which helps the person solve a problem (rational buy) ... both are important. the latter works by doing good products.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the technology also is a bit of a problem, mainly in terms of size of the feature set. but prospective customers may not be aware of that until later.
<wolfspraul> lekernel: you are envious at a story? come on
<wolfspraul> next time Paris Hilton is everywhere for a new hairstyle, will you be envious at her?
<wolfspraul> we know nothing about raspberry
<roh> lekernel: my experience doestn help you there. it says: if you want to be famous, do something really simple really different and loud.
<wolfspraul> let them do their work
<roh> your product is not simple. its really cool complicated voodoo tech (fpga stuff) as seen from normal people.
<roh> so its not fame.. its awe you get.. sorry.
<wolfspraul> I would agree with roh.
<wolfspraul> Paris Hilton started with a sex tape, right? can it be any simpler? :-)
<roh> hrhr
<wolfspraul> and so did Hugh Grant if I remember correctly
<wolfspraul> a blowjob
<wolfspraul> the Milkymist story right now is too difficult
<wolfspraul> it's like "we change the world, come watch us"
<wolfspraul> what do you expect people to do?
<wolfspraul> they say "ok I come back a few years later and see what's going on"
<roh> wolfspraul: ack. thats why i say 'ignore the noise, do cool tech' :)
<wolfspraul> can we break Milkymist down to ONE thing?
<wolfspraul> roh: also agree, and luckily I do that, so I like the M1 and the part I play in it, because I don't try to chase things I cannot influence.
<roh> no. maybe 'foss computing'
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: fully agree on a-7 and controllers
<roh> but thats not popular.. thats geeks with thick glasses fame
<roh> or RMS-spooksy
<wolfspraul> don't worry about the controllers, you are just the most talkative of the ones that are very clearly aware of this angle
<wpwrak> so where's that tweet "man ! i did a show with M1 last night. the chicks went crazy. took home 5 of them." ? i think you'd have lines in front of the M1 shop right the next day ;-)
<roh> bbl.. riding to my batcave
<wpwrak> thinking of it ... i actually wonder what the social prestige and self-image of VJs is. the DJ is pretty much a classical hero. is the VJ an equal ? a lesser DJ ? something else ?
<wolfspraul> very good observation
<wolfspraul> let me just quote Jon, he he
<wolfspraul> the VJ is a pussy
<wolfspraul> sound makes people turn heads
<wpwrak> ;-))
<wolfspraul> that's Jon, ok. not me.
<wolfspraul> also "speakers get the girls naked"
<wolfspraul> and I saw first hand some pretty attractive girls embracing a 3m high speaker pole as if it were a giant dildo
<wpwrak> that's actually pretty much what i thought, too :) a VJ usually seems to be a bit of a sidekick.
<wolfspraul> while the speakers were on full power, of course
<wpwrak> drunk/drugged girls are fun :)
<wpwrak> so .. maybe the real question should be: "how does M1 get the VJ more respect" ?
<wolfspraul> I like how one guy understood m1 after some demos etc. in saying it gives access to "the lowest levels of visuals" (he was implying the programmability down into the fpga)
<wolfspraul> nah, I think that's a loosing battle
<wpwrak> one step may already be to get away from the nerd-with-laptop cliche
<wolfspraul> true
<wolfspraul> if we had a combination with a really cool controller, like that faderfox one, maybe it could already be enough for a complete replacement
<wpwrak> put up some instruments, too. have a panel like the DJ has. 500 knobs. each of them doing something deep, meaningful. and only the wizard at the controls knows how to work that magic.
<wolfspraul> but then people will ask for the well-known stuff - pics, video clips, usb sticks, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul> well it needs to be meaningful
<wolfspraul> the DJ is actually playing
<wolfspraul> I'm still learning what the exact 'performance' of the VJ is, aside from having a cool set of tech gadgets
<wpwrak> i think the faderfox would be great to get the message across. it may not be show-offy enough, but it would make the VJ realize that it's deeper than just three buttons.
<wpwrak> on the occasions where i noticed a VJ, the work environment didn't look all too different from that of a traveling hacker. laptop, eyes fixed on the screen, pecking at some keys.
<wpwrak> and yes, those well-known features need to have a place, too. they're basically assumed as a given. so if you don't have them, people will either be very unhappy (if they've already bought one) or dismiss your product as flawed/unusable (if they haven't)
<wpwrak> one thing i don't understand yet is patch writing. haven't even tried my hands on it. the existing patches look very intimidating. weird, complex formulas. not only with tricky functions but also an almost obfuscating syntax
<wpwrak> i also like those visikord videos very much. imagine an egocam for the VJ, with M1 letting him throw fire. how's that for an attention-getter ? :)
<lekernel> wpwrak, look at for example "Lekernel - Musique de telephone"
<lekernel> it is very simple and still features many of the main options
<lekernel> you can try commenting out lines one by one, and see what they do. also, check out the milkdrop guides.
<wpwrak> yes, this one is pretty tidy. needs comments, but besides that, it's not too scary.
<lekernel> the messy patches are actually those from or based on milkdrop
<lekernel> they can generally be cut by 80-90%
<wpwrak> yeah, lots of nasties there :)
<wpwrak> hehe :)
<wpwrak> what could be removed ? are there redundant calculations ? inefficient ways of calculating a value ? or just unnecessary variables ?
<lekernel> mostly unnecessary variables, and a bit of the others
<wolfspraul> maybe we should have a big feature comparison table that compares m1 features with the 4 major vj solutions quartz composer, resolume, modul8, vvvv
<wolfspraul> even if M1 would have a 'no' on a lot of features those other ones have, it would give a lot of VJs a quick entry point and confidence into the M1 world
<rejon> yes, totally great
<wpwrak> (unnecessary variables) for temporary results ? or just for dead ends, things that are never used ?
<lekernel> yes, good idea
<wpwrak> maybe marketing should emphasize the aspect of putting the VJ into the picture
<lekernel> wpwrak, depends. those milkdrop presets are often written by non-programmers, so you can expect all sorts of things there
<lekernel> wolfspraul, even in brochure v5 maybe
<wpwrak> (patches) okay. needs some vetting then :)
<roh> hm. how was this dj-mixer-midi-controller named again? the 'foss one' with the pic inside
<roh> i wonder if it would help 'making some' to gain marketing momentum
<lekernel> monome?
<roh> nope.. something with A
<wpwrak> i think we've come a long way today. from M1 as a soulless machine owned by The Man that replaces the VJ, to a professional tool enhancing the standing of the VJ, and improving his/her love life.
<wpwrak> kinda all the way from early industrialization to aircraft pilots a few decades ago
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> i think this also makes the weak response so far more understandable. for most developers, it simply doesn't fit anywhere. if they're FPGA fans, they have plenty of cheap eval boards to choose from. if they want the peripherals, chances are their PC already supports them. and for the VJs, it's even worse. the current marketing message basically suggests that they're either useless or lazy. not a nice way to approach your customers. well,
<wpwrak> outside the S&M sector :)
<wpwrak> and for the club owners, it's a muddled message at best
<wpwrak> DJTachyon: we have a weekly event called "160+" here in town. madly fast drum and bass. i think a faster-than-light DJ ought to like that ;-)
<DJTachyon> hah
<DJTachyon> in which town?
<wpwrak> buenos aires
<DJTachyon> wpwrak: on my way! :P
<DJTachyon> <3 DnB
<wpwrak> DJTachyon: by the way, do you have an M1 yet ? i'm curious about real-life use "stories"
<DJTachyon> nah i havent had time to even get one.  I'm working 12 hour days and am running around in circles
<wpwrak> hmm, faster than light -> the more you run around, the more time you save ;)
<DJTachyon> hah
<kristianpaul> okay today was better, a guy told he hate convertting video from here to there and want some dedicated device for video sinthesis
<kristianpaul> i give him a milkymist sticker of course :)
<kristianpaul> also he mentioned dont like all that wires from here to there (from his previous work)
<kristianpaul> i also heard that from lekernel :)
<kristianpaul> and i demoed ()basically let the keybaord with M1 run for some time
<kristianpaul> people ask for price, i heard no complains
<kristianpaul> remenber this in an art* *lab event, i'm theless artistic here, so critics where not that bad i think
<kristianpaul> and yes i was asked again for include video clips on the M1..
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: i think for an stage/studio instrument, M1 pricing is very friendly. it's basically in the range of a mid-range MIDI controller. something like this critter: http://www.cme-pro.com/products-list/product-Bitstream3X.html
<wpwrak> or this one, a bit cheaper, but the function is easier to guess: http://www.novationmusic.com/products/midi_controllers/zero_sl_mk_ii/
<wpwrak> that's basically a bunch of buttons, potentiometers, rotary encoders, and slider, plus an MCU that sends all this to MIDI. that's it. no audio or video processing.
<wpwrak> one thing M1 lacks in comparison to these devices is ruggedness. e.g., a metal case or part metal part plastic would put it on par. a M1 "heavy duty" should probably also re-arrange the connectors a bit. having things come out on all four sides is a bit messy. but all those are details for future improvements. i don't think anyone would reject it just because it's fragile. they may complain, though :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: how much longer is this event ?
<antgreen> do you guys have a fully open source tools for programming your board?
<antgreen> I'm currently using an Altera kit and have to use their jtag tools, and run a proprietary daemon (jtagd).
<antgreen> I'd rather not.
<wpwrak> one word: urjtag !
<wpwrak> not sure what is needed to make it work with altera, though. maybe nothing, maybe a lot of hacking. i think mwalle would be the expert on such porting/adaptation issues.
<qi-bot> The Firmware build was successfull, see images here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/build-milkymist/milkymist-firmware-10282011-1910/
<antgreen> wpwrak: thanks for the pointer
<mwalle> antgreen: the altera usb jtag pod should work out of the box
<mwalle> antgreen: at first you could try to play a svf file
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: it ended today, actually i just arrived home
<wpwrak> ah, a professional event then. no working on weekends :)
<wpwrak> seems that people understood M1 pretty well
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: comunlab.cc
<lekernel> kristianpaul, thanks for the demo. how did it go?
<kristianpaul> lekernel: genreally went ok
<kristianpaul> people always got a good first impresion of M1 in action
<kristianpaul> they point how smoths it behaves etc..
<kristianpaul> he, i got in troubles for a minute, i got that misterrious bug with a led dim !!
<kristianpaul> i just power it off correctly btw !!
<kristianpaul> i knew it was going to happen, but when i less espected, boom ;)
<kristianpaul> afortunayly after a power cut and wait 1 minute (and keep talking in the meanwhile) all went back nice
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> we can sell M1 as a blood pressure training device
<kristianpaul> i was demoing the M1 to guy i told you, was interesting i a dedicated devices for video sinthesis
<kristianpaul> he seemed experienced a lot with different software for mac,
<wolfspraul> which software?
<kristianpaul> but also tired of format convertions and eventual hangs, plus espensive lincesens
<kristianpaul> damn i dont remneber
<wolfspraul> yes I think we need to take that stuff head on
<kristianpaul> he came with a list of 6, i just said yes yes, of course :)
<wolfspraul> can you email him? maybe we can find out more (it's not a big deal though)
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: when we have the dvi-i board we make you an upgrade offer you cannot refuse :-)
<kristianpaul> ;)
<wolfspraul> thank you so much for your continued support and everything! I hope you enjoy...
<kristianpaul> nope i dont take its mail, was a really short time, he just heard i bring a box for video processing and free/open and then ask me for a demo
<kristianpaul> i gave him a sticker  :-)
<wolfspraul> ok sure, no problem
<wolfspraul> good [sticker]
<wolfspraul> I hope you get the new stickers & brochures too, they should be on the way.
<kristianpaul> sure i enjoied a lot when the M1 booted again :_D
<wolfspraul> yes I can imagine :-)
<kristianpaul> sure, as soon i got i can mail (postal) some people we're interested and i have its adresses
<kristianpaul> so that poweroff dont work!!
<kristianpaul> i did that all the event, in every demostration
<kristianpaul> just to avoid chaos, but seems not make difference at all
<wolfspraul> sorry cannot follow now
<wolfspraul> "poweroff don't work"?
<kristianpaul> i mean
<kristianpaul> s/dont work/dont help with led situation
<kristianpaul> led dim**
<kristianpaul> i remenber lekernel pointed that
<kristianpaul> so i took it fron granted (why not?) that i may take out of problems
<wolfspraul> you have an rc2 board. since then we made a number of improvements in that area.
<kristianpaul> ah yes i cant compare with rc3 indeed
<wolfspraul> imo power-off is in no way proven to help with the well-known rc2 booting issues
<wolfspraul> power-off *may* help with the remaining rc3 nor corruption, but I don't think Werner tries to verify that, he just tries to fix the underlying root cause
<kristianpaul> sure sure
<wolfspraul> you just have to live with the thrill for now
<wpwrak> i actually tried to verify this as well, but then the corruption suddenly had vanished. in retrospective, i think i had one of those accidental block 0 locks back then.
<wolfspraul> it will make you feel closer to your m1 :-)
<wpwrak> so the result is inconclusive. if the locking incident happened before the test, the test was meaningless. if it happened afterwards. e.g., in the final sanity check, then the test did show that a "clean" shutdown helped.
<wpwrak> if you analyze my statement carefully, you can conclude that the information content is exactly 0 bits ;-)
<kristianpaul> sure i live with it at home, and hope no with next demo next week  in pasto :-)
<kristianpaul> i'll convicen the organizators use M1 always for the identi.ca updates, i hope people will like that
<kristianpaul> most floss related people
<kristianpaul> will assist
<wpwrak> (dim led and recovery by just power cycling) interesting. i didn't have that yet :)
<wolfspraul> he has an rc2
<wolfspraul> that is the old "cannot boot" problem, several layers before the nor corruption we have left now
<wpwrak> oh, i see
<kristianpaul> yeah it used to happen
<wolfspraul> I think most people who have an rc2 and use it regularly will be familiar with it :-)
<kristianpaul> thats why i _never_ power off my M1 :-)
<kristianpaul> problem sovlec ;)
<kristianpaul> solved**
<wolfspraul> these bugs make me just want to accelerate and fix bugs faster. I think we can take M1 to much higher robustness levels still.
<wolfspraul> yield or manufacturing related, esd, temperature cycles, what not. the advantage of a solid platform you use for a few years is that you can balance it out really well.
<kristianpaul> and yes, forgot, people seems dont like only video out is VGA
<kristianpaul> some people**
<wolfspraul> what do they expect?
<kristianpaul> more video outs
<wolfspraul> you mean multiple? or other connectors?
<kristianpaul> hum, i dint clarify up to that i guess was more that same video out in different connectors
<wolfspraul> one thing to keep in mind with feedback like "if it has xyz I will buy it" is that it may also just mean that they haven't understood the core essence of the product yet
<wolfspraul> basically we have to qualify that
<kristianpaul> sure sure
<wolfspraul> they are new, they see the product for the first time, start thinking about it
<kristianpaul> and want want want, sure i got that part
<wolfspraul> then it's normal, you say "how about xyz?" "how about this?" "how about that?"
<wolfspraul> does it have 3G?
<wolfspraul> no no, that's all good
<wolfspraul> they think, they ask
<wolfspraul> but...
<wolfspraul> we cannot take that stuff literally. we cannot add feature after feature because 1 person says "if it has that I will buy it"
<kristianpaul> ha, a guy tought i could connect his USB Display (very cool btw) to the M1
<wolfspraul> now. The longer someone actually uses m1, the more meaningful/valuable such feedback becomes.
<wolfspraul> if a VJ has used M1 for a year, and he says "I often run into cases where I have to have a xxx connector"
<kristianpaul> i have to said, no is no posible no all free sofware runs linux ;-)
<wolfspraul> wow, that's different!
<wolfspraul> see the difference?
<wolfspraul> I am not dismissing the feedback, just trying to build action items on it.
<wolfspraul> so we can add them to a list of "initial reactions"
<kristianpaul> sure :)
<kristianpaul> i like enjoy all of then
<wolfspraul> and then we can think about why we get that reaction, and how we tell the story better so their minds faster focus on the core essence of what *we* believe is great
<wolfspraul> and we know the vga-only 640x480 is not great
<wolfspraul> but we think it's not the core :-)
<wolfspraul> it's about making people understand why m1 is cool
<kristianpaul> we know, but people dont care somethimes
<kristianpaul> well at frist glance
<wolfspraul> which of course is not because of its spectactular high-res digital video out
<wolfspraul> no, that's all fine
<wolfspraul> I am just explaining what I would do next
<wolfspraul> 1. give the chances to keep thinking and keep giving more feedback
<wolfspraul> invite to this channel
<wolfspraul> ask them to follow #milkymistvj on twitter
<wolfspraul> give them a sticker or brochure
<kristianpaul> i invite to milkymist.org
<wolfspraul> 2. carefully point them away from the tech-spec that they found and towards what we believe makes m1 unique and valuable
<kristianpaul> may be lekernel can add a easy to join chat channerl (aka irc) ;-) ?
<kristianpaul> in the M1 webpage i mean
<wolfspraul> 3. invite them to buy an m1 and use it for a while, the best and fastest way to understand something that is as new and different as the M1
<wolfspraul> that's about it, I think
<kristianpaul> sure people asked for prices several times
<kristianpaul> i told and focused saying, is a product that works, no just some free sofyware without support ;)
<kristianpaul> i also mentioned what's included in the box of course