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<RubJubbins>
Is there a schedule for Zig hack-athons or are they just ad hoc?
<RubJubbins>
like the ones andrewrk does on YouTube
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<pixelherodev>
I'm thinking of going over the CBE in a video Sunday if anyone's interested
<RubJubbins>
pixelherodev: What's the cbe?
<pixelherodev>
C backend
<RubJubbins>
ohh
<pixelherodev>
It produces C89+ code from Zig IR :)
<RubJubbins>
cool!
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<RubJubbins>
I'm new to Zig, I've been learning Golang and thinking about Rust but Zig caught my eye
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<RubJubbins>
perhaps this Christmas will be Zigmas!
<pixelherodev>
Cannot wait for stage2 to be self-hosting
<pixelherodev>
Going to work on a plan9 backend tonight probably
<RubJubbins>
would plan9 executables work on Inferno?
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<pixelherodev>
I doubt it
<pixelherodev>
No
<pixelherodev>
Inferno would require Dis bytecode support
<karchnu>
wow, people knowing plan9, that's quite impressive
<pixelherodev>
karchnu: it's my daily driver :p
<pixelherodev>
I'm more surprised someone *else* knew it
<karchnu>
I wonder how the system is going
<karchnu>
I know that the plan9 OS had a stripped down version of C, without much of the pitfalls.
<karchnu>
But if *someone on the planet* is interested having a zig compiler working on plan9, that's… something.
<pixelherodev>
karchnu: plan9 supports C99 + POSIX via the ANSI/POSIX Emulation layer
<pixelherodev>
(in addition to the plan9 c)
<pixelherodev>
It also supports Go
<karchnu>
Do you talk about a specific version of plan9 ?
<karchnu>
There were a few of them iirc
<waleee-cl>
9front I think
<waleee-cl>
(per a line in the scrollback/log)
<pixelherodev>
9front, yeah
<marler8997_>
andrewrk, one thing I didn't really consider, choosing not to drop support for platforms in the standard library not only means programs for those platforms need to use alternate libraries, it also means they can't make use of the Zig build system. So to have a Zig project that works on an older system, you'd have to not only support an alternate standard library, but find an alternative build system...I'm trying to see what the
<marler8997_>
plan is for these things? Is the plan that you just won't be able to use Zig code on these older platforms?
<pixelherodev>
marler8997_: what platforms do we not support?
<pixelherodev>
but generally, if a platform isn't supported, you're on your own (outside zigland at least)
<marler8997_>
pixelherodev, the one that came up today is Windows 7, since I can't run "zig build" on windows 7 anymore because we're now using unsupported functionality
<pixelherodev>
What functionality?
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* pixelherodev
would like to see continued windows 7 support if only out of spite for MS
<marler8997_>
A couple of unsupported class values in NtQueryFileInformation
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<marler8997_>
This issue is giving me pause on how much time I'm investing in writing Zig code, it sounds like I won't be able to use that code in all the places I would like
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<marler8997_>
Something doesn't "feel right" here and I think I need some clarification on the plan/goals
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<pixelherodev>
...
<andrewrk>
marler8997_, can you open an official proposal to specifically change the windows version range? I want to take this proposal seriously
<andrewrk>
s/windows version range/minimum supported windows version/
<marler8997_>
sure
<marler8997_>
although, even if we just said "let's support Windows 7", I'm still pondering and thinking about this problem in the general case...I'm not sure what we should be doing to address it
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<marler8997_>
I created an issue specific to windows 7 where I propose extending support until 2022
<marler8997_>
but I still think something doesn't feel right with our approach here
<marler8997_>
I've been thinking about solutions and I'm having a difficult time with it, maybe you've thought about this already and have thoughts/insight to share
<marler8997_>
one idea I have is that even if Zig STD only supports modern platforms, we may want to make the Zig build system support all platforms we can
<marler8997_>
maybe we need to have a competing standard library that aims to be a drop in replacement for the main standard library but supports as many platforms as people want to add to it...a compatibility standard library? Just throwing around ideas
<marler8997_>
I feel like with a good package manager the standard library issue can be solved through packages, but if the Zig build system doesn't work then we're really make it hard on people to make Zig work on unsupported platforms
<pixelherodev>
marler8997_: or we support everything in stdlib and have people contribute?
<andrewrk>
thanks marler8997_
<andrewrk>
I think it's an important topic & discussion to have
<marler8997_>
pixelherodev, that's one approach, there are downsides though, the time it takes to review/design a good library that supports everything is non-trivial
<marler8997_>
I'm fine with Zig limiting official support, I just want to know there's a reasonable path to unofficially support things as well
<andrewrk>
I do want to make that possible too. I don't have a fully formed idea but I have this vague notion of being able to make an "OS package" that brings support to arbitrary OS's
<marler8997_>
andrewrk, yeah that makes sense, for example we could have a packages that support older versions of windows, but would that approach work with our zig build system?
<andrewrk>
I see your point
<marler8997_>
btw, I'm on Windows 10 now so I'm not blocked by this Windows 7 issue, and I think I can work around not having windows 7 support on my other machines (knowing some day I'll have a path around it). So I would say let's only support windows 7 if it's more than just me who is wanting it
<marler8997_>
should I create an issue about the "bring your own os" working with the Zig build system, so we document this issue?
<dominikh>
given http://sprunge.us/Ab8fdk is there a straightforward way to say that foo has bar's error set, and use whatever error set has been inferred for bar? without all that @typeInfo gore
<pixelherodev>
andrewrk, marler8997_: idea: improve BYOS support so e.g. Win7 can be fully supported with the stdlib by third parties
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<pixelherodev>
Currently, it's limited, and pretty arbitrary
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<ZigPope>
Hello Zigpals, I was called here by the spirit of Zig! Does anyone need to unburden (or unban) themselves of #zig related sins?
<pixelherodev>
... wut
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<ZigPope>
Our lord and savior, hex, was banned from this channel due to a chicken-and-whiskey related transgression
<ZigPope>
I am here to throw myself at the mercy of andrewrk for the unbanning of a man who, by no fault of his own, was afflicted with chicken-ands
<ZigPope>
er, chicken-hands
<marler8997_>
pixelherodev, yes, improving BYOS to be able to do that would solve any concerns I have
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<ZigPope>
what's BYOS? I saw that related to Windows 7 earlier..
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<marler8997_>
bring your own os
<ZigPope>
ohh
<ZigPope>
That reminds me of BYOU, Bring Your Own Un(burden/banning)
<ZigPope>
a core tenant among the Zig-faithful
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<pixelherodev>
... wut?
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<torque>
trying to get yourself unbanned for obnoxious gimming posting by doing more obnoxious gimmickposting is certainly a new one to me
<torque>
*gimmick
<pixelherodev>
Yep
<JeffBezos3000>
torque: I certainly appreciate your sin theta but I've read in the scriptures.txt that our l0rd and savior hex was silent for 34 minutes before being kbanned... kbanned on Zigmas eve? How terrible!
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<JeffBezos3000>
kicked, sure, that's a Zigmus tradition but klined, tsk tsk
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<l0rd_chicken>
you might as well kick ban me too :(
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<dominikh>
here's a fun one: if std.debug.print segfaults, it deadlocks trying to print the crash
<daurnimator>
dominikh: there is a variable to prevent that.....
<dominikh>
daurnimator: I think that only handles nested panics; this case isn't a nested panic, though. https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/7247 if you're curious about the reproducer
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<semarie>
looking at .always_tail @call modifier, it seems to me it is working only with function returning void, which is a bit unexpected for me (I am usually working with scheme language where tail call is a well-defined compoment of the language)
<semarie>
does it is on purpose ?
<ikskuh>
no, you can also return values with always_tai
<ikskuh>
*tail
<semarie>
ikskuh: well, it isn't my experience :) a simple factorial function with tailcall fail to build (stage1) as LLVM complains it can't do it. looking at IR, between 'call' and 'ret', there is code for putting the returned value in storage and load the storage to 'ret' (defeating LLVM 'mustail' attribute)
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<marler8997>
should we add sentinel pointer variations in std.mem? like startsWithZ etc?
<ikskuh>
marler: wdym?
<ikskuh>
it's kinda weird to expect something to startWith a zero-terminated string :D
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<TheLemonMan>
marler8997, how's the win10 upgrade going?
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<semarie>
ikskuh: I made some advance regarding .always_tail : if the return type is passed as pointer, codegen made code possible with tailcall, but not else. so with u64, it failed
<ikskuh>
hm
<semarie>
the related code is ir_analyze_instruction_return(), specially the if condition with handle_is_ptr(ira->codegen, ira->explicit_return_type)
<marler8997>
TheLemonMan, all updated
<semarie>
I think the codegen is too generic in such cases, and the generated code doesn't permit tailcall (due to "call, store, load, ret" sequence instead of "call, ret")
<TheLemonMan>
semarie, LLVM's tailcall requires a few invariants that Zig doesn't really check
<TheLemonMan>
so don't expect it to really work
<TheLemonMan>
marler8997, got some time to hunt down the CI bug? :D
<marler8997>
sure
<semarie>
TheLemonMan: yes, it should be possible to do bad things. for now, I am able to do recursive calls without filling the stack, so it is fine
<TheLemonMan>
it's not even a matter of doing bad things, if you're not careful enough the result is a LLVM error
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