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<Tuor>
nakilon: ah first(10) looks nice to me, I didn't get it that it takes an argument, I tested .first without argument and got only the first. I'll probably switch. :)
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<janemba>
hello
<janemba>
sorry but what's going on with bundler -> https://dpaste.org/ZXQY I really don't get it. Did I make something wrong ?
<jhass>
janemba: what does which bundler and bundle exec ruby -v say?
<leitz>
It uses Rails and Bundler, neither of which I'm hyped about. :)
<jhass>
I think the original intent was to list a curated list of recommendations, it looks like you rather went into the direction of a bibliography? :P
<jhass>
Also not sure we really should link to amazon here
<leitz>
jhass, I wasn't sure on Amazon, but some of the publishers don't really have good links. That's discouraging; PragProg seems to be dropping some of their Ruby titles.
<jhass>
I think I'd rather have no link and just list an ISBN, but may just be me :shrug:
<leitz>
I have most of the books I list, and I've gotten a couple more. Different books fit different minds, or the same mind at different times. I really love the Pickaxe, but now that I can understand more the O'Reilly book is good. But I couldn't understand that one when I first started.
<jhass>
I mean if the list is too long we're not really helping anybody. At least not until we at least add a comment to each why you may want to choose this one over another, which complement and which are a bit redundant etc
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<jhass>
but then I only ever read one Ruby book and one Rails book :D
<jhass>
(and that's like half of the programming books I ever read)
<leitz>
Understood. I'm the opposite, I have about 20 Ruby based books, and stacks of Perl, C, Go, Python, and PHP. I learn most from books.
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<leitz>
I did sort the books by groups, and made comments on each group. I'm not sure what my base line is for mentoring, and if there will be any mentors willing to help out. Having the books in groups lets us say "Use IRC and Email through your first Ruby work, and then pick a topic." The books give ideas on topics.
<leitz>
That's the thinking, anyway.
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<nakilon>
I have zero books, I have google
<jhass>
If I can y'all make you run programming book, it's Clean Code
<nakilon>
good thing that google knows that I only need ruby doc pages and the old "pragmatic ruby" book hosted on phrogz's site
<jhass>
eh, read even
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<leitz>
jhass, Clean Code is good. I'm going to re-read The Pragmatic Programmer soon, though. I think it's more in depth.
<nakilon>
most of the things that no one follows were described years ago in "rope of enough length to shoot your own leg" or smth
<leitz>
The Practice of Programming is good, too, but I like PragProg more.
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<apotheon>
The Pragmatic Programmer is an excellent book.
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<jhass>
does it try to define what pragmatism actually is? :D
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<Tuor>
Hi, I would like to do very simple user interraction, I just want (for now) that the user can enter yes or no (or y or n) case insensitive. And map this to true are false. How can I?
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<Tuor>
I looked for user input instead of user interaction in the gems and found: https://github.com/akerl/userinput seems to do what I need. :)
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<adam12>
Tuor: If you're looking to do it without dependencies, I'd probably start with using `gets` to assign to a variable, then maybe casecmp the result to get truthyness.
<adam12>
Tuor: There's also tty-prompt which is very nice.
<apotheon>
Tuor: You can just use gets, do a downcase comparison, and return true or false.
<apotheon>
Tuor: That assumes you want actual interactive behavior. If you just want it as a command line argument, you can find the arguments in the ARGV array.
<apotheon>
Tuor: All of this assumes you're trying to do this with a text interface, as opposed to using GUI libraries or something like that.
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<leitz>
jhass, PragProg references the Latin and Greek origins of "pragmatic"; going to the Greek definition "fit for use". The very next sentence (in the Preface to the First Edition) is: "This is a book about doing."
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<Tuor>
text is fine.
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<Tuor>
dependency is not a problem (I write it only for my self (at least for now) and if it changes I'll have to write a Gemfile...
<havenwood>
jhass: I disagree with you about what pragmatism actually is. :P
<havenwood>
Therefore affirming your point. 👍
<havenwood>
leitz: I'm an Idealist Coder not a Pragmatic Programmer.
<zacts>
what would an 'idealist coder' be?
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<havenwood>
zacts: An Anarchist Quaker Engineer.
<zacts>
:-)
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<havenwood>
zacts: I'm a pacifist, anarchist, anti-fascist, and my Twitter bio at least claim I'm an engineer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<havenwood>
zacts: I'm suspicious of pragmatism. :P
<leitz>
havenwood, I like the "get things done" mind-set. It puts me behind when the market is driven by data-science hopes.
<leitz>
But I've usually sat between Operations that needed things to work and Coders who couldn't figure out why their perfect code didn't work.
<havenwood>
leitz: I suppose it depends what's sacrificed for the pragmatism?
<leitz>
havenwood, perfection.
* havenwood
goes back to polishing stones
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<apotheon>
AQE for the win
<leitz>
havenwood, it is an extension of the 'premature optimization' comment; get it to work first, then figure out how to improve it, if you need to.
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<havenwood>
leitz: Ruby is good at prototyping and often then has long legs, serving well at *gasp* scale.
<havenwood>
leitz: Sometimes hard to get out of a ball of mud built with incremental blocks of pragmatism too.
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<havenwood>
Rewrites seem to always misattribute successes to the language change, when it seems it's often just a way for engineering not get blamed for not writing it right the first time. Easier to swallow "we need to rewrite for a language to, ahem, scale" than "we need to rewrite in the very same language because we did it wrong the first time and learned."
<apotheon>
How pragmatic do you think it is to make a ball of mud out of code?
<leitz>
havenwood, I've been sticking with Ruby because it let's me make progress in areas that I haven't succeeded in before. With the switch to Roda or similar, I can probably achieve any scale I'm likely to encounter.
<apotheon>
Chad Fowler has employed an approach to solving the ball of mud problem that I found quite interesting.
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<havenwood>
apotheon: Dry the mud out and grind it into a dust?
<leitz>
havenwood, what I really find Ruby great for is that first build; because there are always things we don't know about the domain, the requirements, or the problem set when we first start. By getting something up and running quickly, we get to those next problems quickly.
<havenwood>
apotheon: Melt the mud into a larger body of water.
<apotheon>
He changed the development process at a company such that everything was built in small parts, basically a part per feature, each one in Whatever Language The Developer Wanted. When it became time to make a change, that piece would just get rewritten.
<havenwood>
apotheon: Hide the mud and never speak of it again.
<apotheon>
There was never a ball of mud. There was never a major language migration project.
<havenwood>
apotheon: Yeah, at work we use many, many microservices written in a number of languages including a large amount of Ruby.
<apotheon>
The pieces were intentionally small enough that it was as easy to rewrite (better) as it was to improve-in-place.
<havenwood>
The Ruby services tend to have nicer attention to tooling and tests. :)
<apotheon>
The tooling (especially testing-related) in Ruby is *fantastic*.
<havenwood>
apotheon: They come with their own challenges but when you have hundreds or more engineers they start making a lot of sense along team lines.
<apotheon>
I miss it when I'm writing C.
<apotheon>
. . . but C is my favorite video game.
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<havenwood>
Majestic monolith!
<apotheon>
What's a majestic monolith?
<havenwood>
Rails.
<apotheon>
ah
<apotheon>
true
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<apotheon>
Rails is too full of magic, just as Django is too full of thumbscrews.
<apotheon>
I'm off for a motorcycle ride, perhaps some photos, and perhaps some writing.
<apotheon>
ta
<havenwood>
Magic seems good to me, unless it's dark magic, then great—but at what cost???
* havenwood
invokes Tenderlove
<apotheon>
It's the black magic in Rails that worries me. Rails is great, until it isn't.
<apotheon>
. . . but I was leaving, so . . . AFK now.
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<adam12>
I always forget IO#gets() accepts a chomp option.
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<isene>
Could someone chime in and give me a hand in using ueberzug to view images in my rfm (Ruby File Manager)? https://dpaste.com/5YS6NHQKU
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<adam12>
isene: What do you mean by halt? What's the exit code?
<isene>
adam12: Halt = It just displays the image and doesn't give back control to rfm
<adam12>
isene: Ah. What happens when you run the command in a regular terminal? Do you have to press a key to exit? or does it return to the prompt immediately?
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<adam12>
isene: the img.sh command
<isene>
I have to hit a key. So, should I fork that process in Ruby instead of simply running it in backticks? And how do I do that?
<isene>
That was a tiny step forward - I got to browse one image, press Down and got the second image, but then it stops. I cannot get it to display a third image, but I can go back to the first. This is rather odd methinks.
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<isene>
How do I kill a detached process?
<leitz>
isene, love on it a lot. Give it plenty of hugs.
<leitz>
Failing that, pkill or kill <PID>
<isene>
leitz: Inside ruby??
<leitz>
isene, my guess is yes, but I haven't done it myself. There is a "kill" in the Process module.
<havenwood>
isene: #spawn returns the PID
<isene>
So, what's the command for killing the process?'
<EdwardIII>
hrm this is weird, if i do a brand new thing with `bundle gem thinger`, go into it, do bundle install, then do bundle exec rake test, i get Unable to determine name from existing gemspec. Use :name => 'gemname' in #install_tasks to manually set it
<EdwardIII>
hmmm nope, just me being in the wrong directory. dumb
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<Tuor>
Hi, My script is generally running, but after some 2 hour of waiting i got a "Uncaught exception: failed to allocate memory". I do have 64GB of ram on my computer and all I did was hashing files one after one and building a big object with a very long list of hashes and one or more paths to files having the same hash. My code (don't cry to much please, just finished the prototype): https://gitlab.com/nod0n/dedup
<Tuor>
Could it really have no memory left? I mean 64GB is a lot...
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<Tuor>
it's only 142 total lines. ;)
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<havenwood>
Tuor: Find.find is recursive. I suspect you're repeatedly recursively crawling directories.
<havenwood>
Tuor: You can Find.prune(path) for paths you've seen or rework the logic to take into account that Find.find goes deep. Does that sound right?
<Tuor>
havenwood: yes. Every file which is found recursively in some specific directories
<havenwood>
Tuor: And within directories within that directory.
<havenwood>
Tuor: And so on.
<havenwood>
Tuor: Are these not deeply nested dirs?
<Tuor>
very deeply nested.
<Tuor>
listing all files worked fine (~200K)
<havenwood>
Tuor: Hmm. Maybe track paths seen and blow up when you see a duplicate path?
<havenwood>
Tuor: Or prune. I don't quite follow this logic on first glance, but assuming you don't expect the same paths seen multiple times.
<Tuor>
hmm track every found directory and if I'm traversing the same directory again, exit?
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<havenwood>
Tuor: I meant raise an exception (assuming it's exceptional and shouldn't happen).
<havenwood>
Tuor: Or if it's allowed but you don't want to repeatedly crawl the same tree, prune.
<Tuor>
If it crawls the same tree again, it finds the same files and then it would raise an error at line 13 or 19. It could theoretically add the same path to the main and secondary storage...
<havenwood>
Tuor: Did you mean?: raise 'main_path already defined!' if @main.includes(path)
<Tuor>
ups, forgot the defined. that you! i'll path
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<Tuor>
should be better now
<nakilon>
I would not use Ruby to hash millions of files
<nakilon>
use some command line utilities like md5, openssl, etc.
<Tuor>
nakilon: why not?
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<nakilon>
because that makes no sense
<Tuor>
What is the difference?
<nakilon>
get all the hashes with those tools and them process the results in Ruby as you wish
<Tuor>
I'm sorry, but I don't get the point.
<nakilon>
the difference is that you came here to tell that it didn't work
<nakilon>
Ruby has nothing to do with hashing
<nakilon>
checksuming, whatever
<havenwood>
Well, it *can* checksum. So related.
<havenwood>
nakilon: Might just be with another error in #bash channel. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<nakilon>
the OS where you run your Ruby already has hundreds of utilies, including those that are for that purpose
<nakilon>
heh
<havenwood>
nakilon: Shell programming can really start to suck after more than a few dozen lines, especially for folk who aren't shell programmers. That said, it's funny how shell scripts can actually be super terse and performant.
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<havenwood>
Then as they grow they become monsters...
<nakilon>
I'm not telling to code all the program in bash, neither in Ruby
<nakilon>
just split
<havenwood>
GNU Parallel can be nice for pretty respectable parallel processing for stuff like this.
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<havenwood>
nakilon: I hesitate to suggest shell to folk who aren't already familiar. So. Many. Pitfalls.
<nakilon>
I suppose if you use proper md5/openssl/whatever commands they'll use paralleling internally in an efficient way
<nakilon>
paralleling such stuff on your own might not be a good idea because of hard drive cache miss
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<Tuor>
havenwood: I now bash a lot better then ruby, but it's more then just a bunch of lines and if it grows it's a lot easier even for me to debug ruby then my own shell scripts from 2 years ago (Shellscripts >100 lines can be quite tedious to debug). How ever it's not about the language and I don't care how long it takes, I just want it to work and If I don't have to rewrite it, I'll prefer. On top of it, handling pathnames isn't all that easy to do it in a
<Tuor>
safe manner in bash :(
<havenwood>
Tuor: Easier to test Ruby. <3 Ruby.
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<havenwood>
Tuor: I'm not arguing for Bash. :)
<Tuor>
:), how ever what could be the problem for my exception, any ideas?
<Tuor>
I'm open to improvements, but if they take to much time I'll not be able to realize them this evening. (with out rewriting it (ruby or not))
<Tuor>
I let it run again to see if my memory fills up. I'm at ~50K files out of 277K. I'll see if my machine just runs out of memory.
<Tuor>
Can it be, that a file is to big to hash it?
<nakilon>
as I understand there are millions of files and you want to hold their checksums of whatever of all of them in the RAM at the same time
<nakilon>
while Ruby is one of the most slow and memory consuming languages
<havenwood>
Tuor: Your code isn't working to detect duplicates, right? Or the `defined?` part works.
<nakilon>
try on smaller directories and measure the consumed RAM with `time` or another nix utility
<nakilon>
to know if it's because you want it to hold too much or because it's an infinite recursion in the program or smth
<nakilon>
and why the gem Blake? there is Digest::*.file()
<nakilon>
the more gems you use the more chances they have own issues
<Tuor>
my code works on smaller amounts of files and deletes duplicates.
<Tuor>
nakilon: blake2b is fast.
<Tuor>
I can test on smaller directories and see how much it consumes.
<nakilon>
be sure that gem is faster that using command line utilities, because gem might have Ruby overhead
<Tuor>
at the moment I'm at 55K files and this is my "available memory": 53Gi
<nakilon>
consuming so much memory for 55k numbers sounds weird
<Tuor>
used (my computer, not only my script): 7.7Gi
<Tuor>
so until now, I do have a lot of free memory.
<Tuor>
nakilon: possible. I'll check out the Dir.glob() method.
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<Tuor>
What this three lines do: find all files (similar to Dir.glob), test if each file is a regular file (ex: not a directory) and add it into the @files variable. I get only regular files in the @files variable. Dir.glob() gives me all files, but also special files like for example devices (/dev), I would still have to do the FileTest.file?.
<al2o3-cr>
regarding Falcon, Polyphony is very interesting.
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<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: I was working on binding monocypher to ruby with an easy to use API. Which in turn as a incremental interface (stream) solving this problem.
<al2o3-cr>
Think i'm going to wait until ruby 3 though.
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<Tuor>
al2o3-cr: was just searching in the internet for streaming files into a digest....
<Tuor>
al2o3-cr: ok. What solutions would you suggest until then? cli util like nakilon sugested?
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: that or find a blake2b gem that is able to digest in chunks. :)
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: i don't think i've come across one tbh.
<Tuor>
OK. Thx, there are not that many I'll see.
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: for the time being, it looks like you'll have to use an external command :(
<Tuor>
havenwood: I don't know if I do have any acceleration for anything. (intel CPU)
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: i mean, why that particular cipher?
<Tuor>
I just took it because I know it's fast and secure. Now I have to replace it with something, that is secure, can handle chunked data and if I can choose is fast.
<Tuor>
I'll have t handle files of >100GB (64GB of memory).
<nakilon>
idk how does security applies to files this large
<nakilon>
anyway
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<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: Is this a game?
<Tuor>
al2o3-cr: What? why? Sorry I don't get it.
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: what are these files?
<Tuor>
Files laying on my nas... Sometimes Backups/Images of things, sometimes I don't even know, would have to look for all big files and have a look at what they are...
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: why are you trying to hash them?
<Tuor>
I want to identify copies of files and delete duplicates in directories which are "secondary" not sorted.
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: why does it have to be secure then?
<Tuor>
I do have some sorted directory structure and some random stuff completely unsorted, and I don't want to go threw files, I already have in my sorted directory.
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<Tuor>
al2o3-cr: Just because of the principle of avoiding using insecure stuff when you do have a secure alternative that's similarly fast or even fast.
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: just use xxhash then
* Tuor
has to duckduckgo 'xxhash'
<al2o3-cr>
Tuor: not cryptographically, but very very fast.
<nakilon>
guys, you spend much more time on chosing the hashing algorithm than would be spent on wrapping the Dir.glob and finding with any standard utility has a call syntax able to checksum a list of paths
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<havenwood>
I'd have just used SHA512 as a baseline to see from there. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: why shell out when there is a tool in the stdlib or a gem
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<al2o3-cr>
i'm never out of the ruby interpreter so i might be biased :)
<nakilon>
because who knows what mess does an average ruby gem do compared to linux utilities
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<havenwood>
find /foo/bar -type f | parallel -j 9000 sha512sum #... work here, and please do have 9,000 cores, that's be nifty
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: if its been thouroughly tested, why not?
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<havenwood>
nakilon: The Ruby digest bindings are just based on reference implementations pretty much.
<havenwood>
nakilon: And the OpenSSL ones, are, well, OpenSSL ones.
<nakilon>
and again, using an already implemented features like checksumming the list of files or implicit large files processing is more reliable than reinventing that wheel in own script
<CommunistWolf>
fork() could be cheaper
<nakilon>
havenwood, and 9000 hard drive caches
<havenwood>
nakilon: RAID 9000
<CommunistWolf>
I'd generally prefer in-process to out-of-process unless I had a very good reason
<nakilon>
unless parallel processes the list from start to the beginning without random walk
<havenwood>
nakilon: For simple parallelized checksums I'd agree, but the more logic gets added the more I might consider a higher level lang.
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<nakilon>
al2o3-cr, how many gems on github that you see the first time in your life are "thouroughly tested"?
<havenwood>
And no fun writing shell tests.
<Tuor>
OK. Thx you all for today. I'll have to work on streaming an other day. I'll try: Digest::XXH64.new.reset (it looks to me it can work with chunked data). have a good night. :)
<havenwood>
Who writes tests to test the tests?
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: that's your job the check, i do.
<havenwood>
Tests to exercise type sigs are interestings.
<havenwood>
al2o3-cr: Yes, I certainly check.
<nakilon>
CommunistWolf, I proposed to do only one call of a checksumming program and one call of ruby -- there is no "our-of-processing" here, just splitting the work into two steps
<al2o3-cr>
havenwood: of course, it's a third party lib. Maybe it could be malware... :P
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<havenwood>
al2o3-cr: As long as its well tested malware...
<nakilon>
checksum the given directories and then do anything you want with that
<CommunistWolf>
the call of the checksumming program is out-of-process
<havenwood>
it's well-tested malware*
<havenwood>
I'd not shell out to a checksum util.
<CommunistWolf>
do it however you like, but I know how I'd do it
<al2o3-cr>
havenwood: hehe, absolutely
<havenwood>
Shelling out is no fun and Ruby digests *just work*.
<nakilon>
CommunistWolf, out-of-WHAT-process?
<CommunistWolf>
the check process
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<nakilon>
you don't call it from ruby
<nakilon>
ther is a shell that you are already in
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<CommunistWolf>
the distinction is kinda moot
<nakilon>
just cheksum that directory ,and then run your ruby program on that results
<nakilon>
just two program calls
<CommunistWolf>
whether you `sha512sum | ruby ...` or `ruby <some script that fork { exec }s`, you're paying the same overhead
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: but what if it's GNU external command?
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<havenwood>
If I can avoid shelling out, I almost always do.
<nakilon>
where did I say I call the ruby for each checksum?
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<nakilon>
where did I tell to shell out?
<nakilon>
I told from the very beginning to do a single one call of any unix utility to checksum your directory
<nakilon>
and then do a single one call of ruby to process the results
<havenwood>
nakilon: sha1deep or something?
<nakilon>
I don't know, these unilities must exist, would need 5 minutes of googling
<nakilon>
*utilities
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<havenwood>
nakilon: I'm not sure on the domain, so unsure if exact dir checksums suffice? I'm multitasking, so may have missed a requirement that allows complete dir comparison?
<havenwood>
nakilon: I dunno. If a utility exists that does the particular thing? Maybe here, but only Tuor knows. I was assuming there's a tad more to what Tuor is doing but maybe I'm just wrong there.
<havenwood>
Maybe they'll come back and share the finished product.
<havenwood>
nakilon: I think about just as likely that there's a Ruby gem solution too though.
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: i bet sha512sum /foo/bar/* | sha512sum works
<havenwood>
nakilon: Unsure if a Ruby gem solution or command line tool would be more optimal.
<nakilon>
he said he knows bash better than Ruby, so he probably just wanted to experiment of making the whole program in pure Ruby; my point was that it might be not practical
<havenwood>
yeah, i usually like to try both and see which i like when unsure on two lang options. (assuming it's something you can quickly spike out both options for)
<havenwood>
you never know the state you'll find libs in
<nakilon>
I see nothing bad in chaining the whole process into steps that use different languages
<Tuor>
lol it goes on... Can't answer all questions. I already answered why not bash. My code works as it is published (for smaller files). It's a mess to handle filenames and logical connected data in bash. The discussion begun, because my solution didn't work with very big files. streaming will solve this problem. :) I'll try to remember to read the chat from tonight tomorrow morning.
<nakilon>
people spend already around 60 years making new programming languages, there is no reason to decide "these 1000 languages are obsolete, I should now stick to the one, the whole science of programming languages design should stop exist"
<havenwood>
nakilon: If SCOTUS has it's way in Oracle vs. Google we may all be learning new programming languages soon. >.>
<nakilon>
you don't have to keep "logical connections" or do the "deleting/filtering" in bash
<al2o3-cr>
nakilon: create your own language?
<havenwood>
Set the world on fire so Oracle can make a buck. :(