hsbt_away changed the topic of #ruby-core to: check the latest release candidate for 1.9.1 release ftp.ruby-lang.org:/home/yugui/ruby-1.9.1-r26021+1.tar.bz2
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<_ko1> charliesome: are you?
<charliesome> _ko1: hi
<_ko1> hi!
<_ko1> what do you think about https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/8976
<_ko1> ?
<_ko1> i think it is enough for your motivation == performance
<charliesome> i was just reading nobu's patch then
<charliesome> i'm positice
<charliesome> positive* towards it
<_ko1> cool
<charliesome> the syntax error on ruby 2.0 is an issue i was concerned about
<charliesome> because it means gems can't start using frozen strings until they're prepared to drop 2.0 support :(
<_ko1> yes
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<_ko1> disadvantage is we can't select frozen or not frozen
<_ko1> for each string
<_ko1> however, i think it is educational because most of String should be immutable
<_ko1> and we can get mutable string with 'foo'.dup
<_ko1> and we can optimize String#dup by compiler or so.
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31033] nobu:r43112 (trunk): io.c: keep fptr read-closed - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31033
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31034] svn:r43113 (trunk): * 2013-10-02 - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31034
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31035] nobu:r43114 (trunk): io.c: get rid of race condition - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31035
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<travis-ci> [travis-ci] The build passed. by @nobu: See http://travis-ci.org/ruby/ruby/builds/12037898
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31036] naruse:r43115 (trunk): Add NEWS about RbConfig::SIZEOF - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31036
<_ko1> BTW,
<_ko1> charliesome: r43111 ++
<charliesome> _ko1: thanks! the warning appearing again on clang 5 was reported to me by spastorino, so I can't claim the credit ;)
<_ko1> I see
<_ko1> but my clang is clang version 3.0-6ubuntu3
<_ko1> ...
<charliesome> i'm on 4.2
<charliesome> i think clang 5 is part of xcode 5
<_ko1> I see
<nurse> apple's versioning is different from LLVM/clang itself one.
<nurse> clang --version says "Apple LLVM version 5.0 (clang-500.1.63) (based on LLVM 3.3svn)"
<charliesome> nurse: ah, good point
<charliesome> I have: λ clang -v
<charliesome> Apple LLVM version 4.2 (clang-425.0.28) (based on LLVM 3.2svn)
<_ko1> my clang is on Ubuntu
<nurse> Therefore it is clang 3.3
<nurse> _ko1 didn't have Mac?
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<_ko1> nurse: I have in home.
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<_ko1> charliesome: in my opinion
<_ko1> [ruby-core:57593] [ruby-trunk - Feature #8976] file-scope freeze_string directive
<_ko1> Akira knows it.
<_ko1> However, I'm afraid that people use f suffix everywhere for (few) performance improvement.
<_ko1> Because they are not a specialist of Ruby.
<_ko1> some blog may say "how to improve perofrmance" tips.
<_ko1> `freeze_string' style approach is good for people to make more solid program.
<charliesome> I like freeze_string, but I still think f-suffix has merit
<charliesome> I don't think we should be concerned about people using f-suffix too much
<_ko1> how about `'foo'.frozen' instead of f suffix
<_ko1> ?
<_ko1> charliesome: i think language should be educational
<charliesome> with an opt_frozen instruction?
<_ko1> charliesome: for example, Yes.
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<charliesome> what about "a #{1}".frozen
<charliesome> should that dedupe "a 1"?
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31037] naruse:r43116 (trunk): * vm_core.h: use __has_attribute() instead of __clang__major__ because - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31037
<_ko1> charliesome: yes
<charliesome> ah I see
<charliesome> so String#frozen dedupes
<charliesome> but then opt_frozen is used when recv is a NODE_LIT string
<_ko1> yes
<_ko1> [ruby-core:57579] [ruby-trunk - Feature #8977][Open] String#frozen that takes advantage of the deduping
<charliesome> yeah, I saw that
<charliesome> I like that idea
<_ko1> me too
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<_ko1> but i'm not sure the name "frozen" is good nor not
<charliesome> it's too easily confused with #freeze IMO
<_ko1> this means that "pick up from frozen string pool"
<charliesome> #pooled maybe
<_ko1> pooled!
<charliesome> or #dedup
<nurse> class String; def frozen; p self; end; end
<charliesome> nurse: we would use BOP in opt_frozen
<_ko1> nurse: why `p'?
<nurse> only example
<_ko1> we have already Object#frozen?
<nurse> ah I maybe understand
<_ko1> String#cool_string
<nurse> I thought collision with user defined frozen if it is syntax but it is no problem
<charliesome> as example implementation of opt_frozen: https://gist.github.com/charliesome/d797d2c8eb890d84b718
<dbussink> so i saw that frozen idea, isn't this basically semantically almost the same as symbols?
<dbussink> and why can't symbols be used in that case?
<_ko1> dbussink: i like this idea
<dbussink> since it also needs a symbol table like structure to keep the strings
<charliesome> dbussink: symbols aren't strings and shouldn't be confused with strings IMO
<dbussink> well, feels to me like two almost exactly the same semantics but slightly different
<charliesome> Symbol#to_s allocates a new string, which loses the performance gain of using frozen strings
<dbussink> but why can't symbols be used in the case he shows
<dbussink> if it's because they can't be gc'ed, that seems like what needs fixing
<_ko1> dbussink: in ruby3, i want to unify string and symbol
<dbussink> and not adding another feature like this that is almost the same but not exactlyt
<dbussink> right
<_ko1> dbussink: but there are many issues
<dbussink> so why add more features related to this at this moment?
<dbussink> it's just that it feels like copy pasting a bunch of code with slightly different semantics
<charliesome> i don't think strings and symbols should be unified - they are semantically different
<dbussink> and that never really worked well when i did that before
<nurse> ruby 3 will be released the year 2030 or something...
<charliesome> maybe they could be unified internally, but they should remain separate classes IMO
<dbussink> charliesome: right, but why can't symbols be used there for that rubygems example then if the duplication in memory is so big?
<charliesome> dbussink: for that specific example, they could be
<charliesome> but we should consider the general case
<_ko1> dbussink: what should return -> "foo" == :foo
<dbussink> charliesome: well, what i wonder is how much general case is left after looking at each case
<dbussink> so whether that makes it worth adding the complexity
<charliesome> _ko1: i think that should return false
<nurse> it will break all desctructive methods for strings
<charliesome> _ko1: many libraries (especially DSLs) use symbols and strings for different things
<charliesome> _ko1: my favourite example is in bundler. source "http://rubygems.org" vs. source :rubygems
<_ko1> charliesome: currently yes. so ruby3 is good chance to change it
<_ko1> charliesome: but i know compatibility is also important
<_ko1> charliesome: big issue
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<charliesome> dbussink: here is an example where there is a heavily duplicated string that doesn't make sense as a symbol: https://github.com/github/rails/pull/19
<_ko1> charliesome: BTW, rb_fstring() should be renamed with tha method name of String#frozen
<_ko1> for example, rb_str_frozen()
<_ko1> if it is String#dedup, then rb_str_dedup()
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<_ko1> String#to_fstr # bad idea
<dbussink> charliesome: right, but doesn't that pull request have a better fix than this feature would have?
<_ko1> String#dedup is clear?
<charliesome> _ko1: agree
<charliesome> dbussink: so the fix i went with was possible because we never call those methods in our app so we can straight up delete the method
<charliesome> dbussink: rails core wouldn't want to do that though
<charliesome> they still want to show a deprecation warning
<charliesome> and as far as i'm concerned, that's a concrete use case for deduplicated strings that aren't symbols
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31038] nobu:r43117 (trunk): io.c: wait child process after close_read - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31038
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31039] nobu:r43118 (trunk): test_io.rb: add test - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31039
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31040] ko1:r43119 (trunk): * gc.c: relax GC condition due to malloc_limit. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31040
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31041] mame:r43120 (trunk): * random.c (make_seed_value): a local array declaration was accessed - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31041
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31042] mame:r43121 (trunk): * ext/socket/ifaddr.c (rsock_getifaddrs): fix possible memory leak. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31042
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31043] knu:r43122 (trunk): * misc/ruby-additional.el: Properly quote the body. An unquoted - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31043
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31044] svn:r43123 (trunk): * 2013-10-03 - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31044
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31045] nobu:r43124 (trunk): * ext/thread/thread.c (Init_thread): move outer module condition. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31045
<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31046] nobu:r43125 (trunk): * ext/thread/thread.c (ALIAS_GLOBAL_CONST): fix typo, GLOBCAL. - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31046
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<znz_jp> biff: [ruby-changes:31047] nobu:r43126 (trunk): rbinstall.rb: reorder - http://mla.n-z.jp/?ruby-changes=31047
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<mpapis> hi, is here someone I could talk to about hosting binary rubies on official ruby servers?
<mpapis> right now they all are here: https://rvm.io/binaries/
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