<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (in) "units" is your friend :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak maybe the counterwight can be my next MONSTER project
<rjeffries>
wpwrak we work in inches as you see from his spec. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (paperwight) you need to install the counterweight for doing this properly
<rjeffries>
is the rumor that Ben makes a really functional paperweight correct? or is that jsut talk? ;)
<rjeffries>
I think you are correct besides ther material cost approaches zero on this tiny job
<rjeffries>
I'll be back later have to go pick up a Ben Nanonote
<rjeffries>
s/ticjness/thickness  sigh
<rjeffries>
s/spcfy/specify
<rjeffries>
what is the ticjness tolerance you want to spcfy?
<rjeffries>
s/fisrt/first  that is pretty stanadsrd
<rjeffries>
we will get a fisrt article to review I think.
<rjeffries>
I think I'll ask for quotes for 500 and 1000
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i.e., you may find that 100 and 500 units have almost the same total cost. the pricings i've seen in this context all make 500-1000 a reasonable order size, while 100 or lower makes no sense.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: regarding batch sizes, this depends on the pcb fab. what i've seen so far is you generally have a certain setup cost and a more-or-less constant per board cost. this then gets somehow translated into a price for you.
<rjeffries>
did tuxbrain get firm UBB quote and schedule? just curious is all. I assume 800 Ben owners are screaming for your UBB
<rjeffries>
does Tux ok
<rjeffries>
well I do not think it is OFFICIAL but someone married for many year like me has learned it is IMPORTANT holiday
<rjeffries>
sent 14:36 my tme (PDT) to you and Doug
<rjeffries>
yesterday was Feb 14 in USA, a holiday we call Valentines Day. spent it (mainly) doing fun stuff away from computer with my wife
<rjeffries>
I want him to polish/finalize the spec, which I think is getting close
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you've got mail.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: did you find it ? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:15:25 -0300
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: subject  Re: WERNER: questions re UBB fab specs
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: to you and to him. "Ron K. Jeffries" <rjeffries@gmail.com>
<rjeffries>
I guess I need to ask him for the next rev of fab document
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I have a flood of email. I assume your reply went to Doug Bull then?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i already answered your mail yesterday ... you need to work on that read/write ratio ;-)
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain do you have firm quoutes and schedulke with your pcb fab house yet?
<Jay7>
rjeffries: look at nokiaplans.com
<rjeffries>
@segphault: How many Elops does it take to screw in a lightbulb? None, he has Steve Ballmer do it because he's too busy screwing Nokia.
<rjeffries>
in smuxi irc timestamps are my local time. jsut sayin'
<rjeffries>
.
<rjeffries>
off to bed
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I know that, but the image was too good to let it pass
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: naw, i didn't dremel that ...
<rjeffries>
not bad for a hand-held Dremel tool. ;)
<rjeffries>
smile
<rjeffries>
is this your final answer?23:11 <wpwrak> getting good at milling ubbs. got one that's 11.02 mm wide. 20 microns tolerance
<rjeffries>
I am getting worried that I may have found a possible use case for Ben. That can't be good.
<rjeffries>
s/soud/sound
<rjeffries>
so if I transfer .wav files into Ben, what tool will play them? Is there a soud editor, or must they be converted to .OGG
<rjeffries>
never ever take anything I say seriouly. My wife knows that, and so should you
<rjeffries>
I am kidding guys
<rjeffries>
it just seems that reading a disk format that Bill Gates invented is so, well, morally corrupt. ;)
<rjeffries>
If ben can read, that is a start
<rjeffries>
that is A Good Thing because this cool Zoom H1 writes .wav files to FAT format ,icroSD
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away is supposed to be away I am so totally confused. ;)
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: yes it can
<rjeffries>
I assume no, or maybe HELL NO
<rjeffries>
can Ben read a FAT formatted microSD?
<rjeffries>
it will be fun, in a perverse way, to see how someone who has not taken the Copyleft Vows manages to get by with a Ben
<rjeffries>
but seriously
<rjeffries>
just a guess... lol
<rjeffries>
that might be a LINUX program, no?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak let me take a wild as guess...
<rjeffries>
keyboard is great I can't type worth beans.
<rjeffries>
no this idiot lappie has a shift lock that can be hit too easily, and pronlem is worst when a monkey is typing
<rjeffries>
s/won/own/
<rjeffries>
sorry for caps lock
<rjeffries>
kyak NOW you understand why rjeffries hAS NOT PURCHASED A bEN nANONOTE. hE DOESN'T deserve TO WON THIS MILITARY GRADE ELECTRONICS
<rjeffries>
I will not ask any questions on irc, that would be CHEATING
<rjeffries>
I will be checking the wiki, approaching it as a virgin, seeing if this makes sense to someone with limited intelligence but a great sense if humor
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you'll almost certainly want to reflash. and i agree that it's not hard. the script is great.
<rjeffries>
a UBB fits. ;)
<rjeffries>
I figure it does not even have to be turned on to see how well
<rjeffries>
this Ben ha sbeen flashed but I do not know when
<rjeffries>
do you use Jlime od the qi-haredware OpenWrt or Debian or Vista? just kidding about Vista
<rjeffries>
the only reason I am borrowing this Ben is to be able to check if Tuxbrain UBB PCB have good mechanical fit. ;))
<rjeffries>
kyak I will print that comment out and frame it on my wall.
<rjeffries>
kyak not really. I am the kind who knows just enough to screw things up.
<rjeffries>
next I will face the nightmare I mean "challemge" of figuring out when it is worth reflashing
<rjeffries>
gas is expensive these days.
<rjeffries>
I have other business in Santa Barbara where I used to work. I am picking up Nanonote as well as three or so other tasks
<rjeffries>
you can tell wolfspraul, but he will think it is just a PROOF OF CONCEPT
<rjeffries>
s/yomorrow/tomorrow
<rjeffries>
whatever you do PLEASE not tell: rejon, tuxbrain, lekernel and the rest of my HUGE fan club.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak please keep this a TOTAL SECRET yomorrow I drive 80 miles to pick up a Ben Nanonote.
<rjeffries>
how about letting your computer enter sleep mode?
<rjeffries>
!seem wpwrak
2011-02-14
<rjeffries>
not a bad price
<rjeffries>
nack later must run nnow
<rjeffries>
s/mt/my
<rjeffries>
sine my main interest in me, myself, and I, if I can buy from you I will prolly not risk mt limited capital on this
<rjeffries>
I am in review process before asking PCB fab house(s?) for quote
<rjeffries>
no problem and no hurry
<rjeffries>
Ho Tuxbrain
<rjeffries>
off to take wife out for Valentines brunch
<tuxbrain>
rjeffries:Â Â hi
<rjeffries>
wpwrak: You have mail.
2011-02-13
<rjeffries>
Sundays are SLOOOOW here. where are your priorities, people?
<rjeffries>
his name sounds German but it may be just a virtual persona. not that there is anything wrong with that
<rjeffries>
It's funny, he klives in Cina, has a shop in Hong King, has people in Taiwan, and an engineer in Argentina and others in France, Germany Russia and god only knows weher else
<rjeffries>
I know a great guy in Asia
<rjeffries>
s/ten/then
<rjeffries>
I am just learning anyway
<rjeffries>
this is so dmall and so simple that it is all setup I think
<rjeffries>
the cheapest price we can get is zero dollars/ea
<rjeffries>
has Tuxbrain decided to push forwar with UBB. if so I will get estimates ten simply buy some for me from tuxbrain simple as tat
<rjeffries>
unless he is gettinga special deal from a friend of a friend or a guy who knows a guy who...
<rjeffries>
itwill be intereting to compart USA estimate with Tuxbrain I suspect similar prices actually
<rjeffries>
there is more to wpwrak than meets the eye
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: thanks :) alas, already a bit obsolete
<rjeffries>
I read your 2006 PDF about making the LED gdget. nice piece of work. very instructive
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: for every 1000 UBB you buy, you get a free ben ;-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak //re UBB// if you want to make > 10k, you probably need to go to china :) //and wolfspraul needs to sell more Bens//
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: at 1000, you'd drop down to something like 0.75 EUR/UBB. looks like a medium-volume fab. if you want to make > 10k, you probably need to go to china :)
<rjeffries>
Not bad at all: 20:42 <wpwrak> rjeffries: about 1 EUR per UBB, MOQ 500. I was figuring 1,000 would be an economic qty.
2011-02-12
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: about 1 EUR per UBB, MOQ 500.
<rjeffries>
AC ’97 Rev 2.1 Multi-Channel Audio Codec w
<rjeffries>
is this part used on Milylist or Nanonote? LM4550B
<rjeffries>
I have read everthing I guess. nothing majorly interesting hap[edn on the list anyway, with exception of the wonderful "Letters from an engineer in Argintina.
<rjeffries>
sourceforge seems to be unreacable for me right now
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul is qi-hardware list very quiet recently? I seldom get emails.
<rjeffries>
reading above it would seem so.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak: did Tuxbrain get a quote for UBB pcbs, it sounds like?
<rjeffries>
s/hpwgy/Howdy!
<rjeffries>
hpwdy people
<rjeffries>
good afternoon form sunny California, USA
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I must censor myself. I have not visited China and would love to. I do not wish their secret police to have me on a Dangerous Persons list. I am already on lekernel s list and that is enough //grim//
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (flash mob in front of wolfgang's office) hmm, i wonder what the chinese government has to say about flash mobs in general ;-)
<rjeffries>
but I am learning what is involved. I know the right people, and they have given some advice
<rjeffries>
lekernel however to be frank, I hope tuxbrain gets the UBB manufactured so I can buy from him
<rjeffries>
s/her/here funny typo
<rjeffries>
I have invested time and social capitta; to explore what is needed to MAYBE manufacture say qty 1,000 of wpwrak UBB
<rjeffries>
no foreplay with you I see.
<rjeffries>
ok, her is data
<rjeffries>
you have not advised me of my rights against self incrimination, or that I have the right to have a lawyer present.
<rjeffries>
may I answer in a non-direct way lekernal?
<rjeffries>
my opinions about everything are far form precise. I specialize in fuzzy logic.
<rjeffries>
lekernal Good Morning Sir? ow are you today? I am fine. ;)
<lekernel>
rjeffries: what is your precise opinion about the Ben btw?
<rjeffries>
as a portable digital audio review (listen to the files) and possible digital audio editor
<rjeffries>
anyway, on a semi-serious note, I may have stumbled across a real world use case for Ben
<rjeffries>
don't tempt me. but MY flash mob will be in front wolfspraul offices (a secret location) and we will burn sharism in efigy. //big smile//
<rjeffries>
wpwrak you should become a full time commedian
<rjeffries>
moving microSD back and forth. those little cards seem fragile to me
<rjeffries>
to transfer digital audio files form Zoom H1 to Ben will require
<rjeffries>
Zoom H1 has a miniUSB port, but (sigh) Ben has no USB host. that would have been sweet. so...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: every great deed starts with a small first step. so now is the time for you to install it :)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak pls don't get upset that I have not YET had time to start learning KiCad. I plan to, in due time. This is one of many balls I juggle right now
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (wav -> ogg) sox perhaps ?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: in real life, you want to know where your components go. and you probably have a few ideas about the traces as well
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: people have done multilayer boards manually. also something like the ben should be entirely feasible.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak and for thse not very complex PCBs routing by hand is doable correct?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: autorouters are generally useless. oh, kicad has one, but it's even more useless than autorouters usually are. it also has - completely useless - autoplacement.
<rjeffries>
on Ben is there a tool that converts .wav to ... OGG for example?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the web-based one is semi-automatic. so you control the quality. i only tried it briefly (i don't like its non-free nature and i like anything web-based even less), but it seemed quite decent.
<rjeffries>
back to my new Zoom toy (I bought to help with interviews for a book I am writing)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: e.g., if you look at the latest atben, most of the traces curving around the crystal are off-grid
<rjeffries>
what is qua;ity of routing the web based Kicad tool performs? really ugly, or ok
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: kicad also has quite good positioning aids. so in many difficult cases, you'll find that traces just snap exactly to the place where you want them. this means that you depend less on the grid.
<rjeffries>
I was thinking that Ben might be a pretty cool portable digital audio post processing gadget for Zoom H1
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i never used eagle. if eagle has a decent autorouter or even push-router, then it would have an edge over kicad there. kicad has an external free-as-in-free-beer web-based push router, though
<rjeffries>
unrelated to UBB, the Zoom H1 records in .wav or MP3 (am I allowed to even SAY "MP3" here? LOL)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (ubb) e.g., you could even construct a device that acts like a memory card but isn't. or emulate some sdio peripherals, etc. that's serious engineering, and probably a CPLD, though.
<rjeffries>
the microphone digital recorder si so awesome you can not imagine it
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: keep on thinking. UBB lets you do pretty much anything you can dream up :-)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I understand Eagle (for example) is failry popular, how well does KiCad compare on features
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I recently purchased a Zoom H1 digital recorder. CLEVER device. it uses microSD. it simply caused some neuronal activity and I wodred what if
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: certain free-as-in-free-beer-but-not-free-as-in-freedom EDA tools are also popular for "open" designs. in particular Eagle
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (kicad) there is also gEDA. gEDA is older and - was at least when i looked at it the last time - vastly inferior
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain: what progress do you have in getting UBB fabbed in Europe>
<rjeffries>
wpwrak is KiCad the leading PCB layout tool for the open community? just curious is all
<rjeffries>
wpwrak ok. this UBB is so tiny... new thought" I wonder if any device other than Ben may (for hacker) be able yp use UBB?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: do it's not a madhouse like the linux kernel, but you see a commit every once in a while.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (kicad) activity varies a bit, but in general, people are doing stuff.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (space between pcbs) that should be the fab's choice. the less, the more boards you can cram on a pcb, which may bring down the unit price a little. the lower limit is defined by their machinery.
<rjeffries>
New topic: how actively is KiCad beubg developed?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I have told him width dimension is critical will need to be laser cut or milled
<rjeffries>
wpwrak has told be he accepts gerbers, the pcb fab will panelize, says we need to decide on space betwwn pcbs
<rjeffries>
wpwrak a different guy who works at a place that does board design and then acts as interface to pcb fab houses in US and China
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I expect to get his feedback and advice early next week
<rjeffries>
wpwrak no I do not have quote, over this weekend 12-14 Feb an engineer is reviewing the package you put together
<rjeffries>
I hear someone snoring, somewhat annoying ;)
<rjeffries>
the PCB fab place will panelize using gerber we supply
<rjeffries>
wpwrak thanks to your mail server my various email updates on PCF getting a quoye process all bounced
2011-02-11
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: tuxbrain is probably busy cleaning out the backyard where they'll airdrop the containers with ubbs ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i still think you could just have sent the stuff directly to a pcb house and just see of they can make heads and tails of it, but okay, your approach is safer :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (review on weekend) yes, i saw the mail
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain when will your UBB production run be complete? becasue then I can go and do something else
<rjeffries>
then I have a serious PCBFAB dude (a friend f a friend) and he will then quoyte
<rjeffries>
a PCB aware engineer will review package this weekend
<rjeffries>
I'll then modify or whatever
<rjeffries>
ok roh got it
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I am moving along in terms of getting quoutes for UBB
<roh>
rjeffries: slowness isnt a question of clocking alone. its also about ram bandwith, cachsizes etc.
<rjeffries>
Dockstar is 1.2Ghz processor for example
<rjeffries>
oh well, why are we discussing this. too funny
<roh>
rjeffries: loads of people. who share files in a flat/house? everybody has notebooks.
<rjeffries>
so I also have powerful computers. they cost more that $20 to $100 USD and do not draw only 5 watts\
<rjeffries>
but why would they give that task to a slooooooooooooow NSLU?
<rjeffries>
who in god's name would chose to use NSLU ti view HD movie? that makes zero sense
<rjeffries>
roh it is all about user case
<rjeffries>
i recently found out that Dockstar also can talk the SPI (??) that the microSD aka 8:10 spits out
<roh>
rjeffries: for me the nlsu was never interresting. much too low-end hw.
<rjeffries>
roh that lottle server waS nslu FWIW
<rjeffries>
roh I set up NSLU as a small ftp server for my gransdson who uses Macs he has used it withoout a single touch for maybe 2 years\
<rjeffries>
BUT........ you do Not need to use a seagate HDD
<rjeffries>
yes their objective was ti sell HDD
<rjeffries>
by the way it also has JTAG (slightly hacky)
<rjeffries>
and I2C
<rjeffries>
roh you  miss the point
<rjeffries>
it is the old NSLU on steroids with a LOT more RAM and multiple USBs
<rjeffries>
at $100 they made some money (there's almost nothing inside)
<rjeffries>
I have and it is awesome product very low power, solid but tiny Linus server
<roh>
rjeffries: i have no real opinion about the marvell stuff yet. havent tested it myself yet.
<rjeffries>
uses the Marvell refernce design more or less has 4 USB ports 1xGbe no display no keybaord has 128MB Ram and 2MB flash
<rjeffries>
really cool
<rjeffries>
it is from Segate google Segate Dockstar real cheap was $20 at several places includding WOOT
<rjeffries>
is discontinued but still available
<rjeffries>
viric: cipher processor in dockstar is basically useless there is no source of randomess. other flaw is no real time clocl but neitehr matter for my humble uses
<viric>
rjeffries: what is that dockstar?
<rjeffries>
ok maybe I should just use openmoko email addr then
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: in any case, whatever almesberger.net might say, openmoko.org mails are also stored at openmoko.org, which is where i actually read htme
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (retry time) ah, that sounds more accurate. yes, the server is down. was replaced after hardware failure and needs manual restoring.
<rjeffries>
whatever
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: oh, the server doesn't quite work at the moment. i'm surprised it accepts any mails ... lemme stop that
<rjeffries>
Dockstar does not run hot
<rjeffries>
13:02 <rjeffries> steve|m I am also a Dockstar fan Still own two. semt one to a freind in Sweden
<rjeffries>
stebe| I am also a Dockstar fan Still own two. semt one to a freind in Sweden
<rjeffries>
werner@almesberger.net
<rjeffries>
wait i am wrong here is real issue
<rjeffries>
  retry time not reached for any host after a long failure period
<rjeffries>
  (generated from werner@openmoko.org)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak your spam assasin prevent me sending you an email about the PCB Fab process no biggie but scoring is broken
<rjeffries>
anyway I am boring myself. ;)
<rjeffries>
people are delighted
<rjeffries>
easy peasy lemon squuezy. nit easy to tune up but when it is
<rjeffries>
or... if person is calling his neaighbor, it remaiins VOIP all the way
<rjeffries>
in some cases it hits an IP base sofswitch, which thenmay ytansport the call over an IP trunk
<rjeffries>
the POTS is converted to VOIP and backhauled over an engineered IP network
<rjeffries>
my previous company has maybe a million lines of telephony. POTS from house to a cabinet (this is typically a drop of a few thounad feet
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: just watching the show :)
<rjeffries>
did wpwrak go to sleep? or is he just hiding?
<rjeffries>
that is why MGCP is used in some teclo VOIP to Telco gateways\
<rjeffries>
SIP does have issues, including complexity and interoperability (because of teh complexity)
<rjeffries>
roh no problemo, since I have worked in telecom and data com for maybe 20 years or more, these topics (and arguments) are not new to me;)
<roh>
rjeffries: i still dont have proper clip, clir, and all the isdn feats on sip.
<rjeffries>
and yes let's move on.
<roh>
rjeffries: i know. sorry if i sounded a bit harsh. but us telecom markets.. thats something for me to laugh about, when not cry. not to celebrate
<rjeffries>
roh you are a smart and even funny guy. we also has ISDN but it is pretty much irrevelant.
<rjeffries>
roh I gues syou are not aware that VOIP uses small packets over IP.
<roh>
rjeffries: its only expensive if you have 'pots' as your default.
<rjeffries>
I am not ANTI circuit switced at all. but it is a more expensive technology, and is fading FAST
<rjeffries>
biab
<rjeffries>
IP is used maybe 85 percent of time and IT WORKS
<rjeffries>
i will now eat breakfast. a late brekfast.
<rjeffries>
roh you miss the point. ARM and it's 53 byte cell size was indeed a compromise.
<rjeffries>
s/ss&/SS7Â Â look, I am well versed in telco world. don;t assume I am ignorant. ;) I have written tens of thousands of words that peopel paid me for on these topics.
<rjeffries>
ATM is no longer where the action is. It is used in limited cases for trunking
<rjeffries>
s/gaod/God  ;)
<rjeffries>
the INTERNET as tarsnport can be dicey but VOPI over an engineered network is first rate
<roh>
rjeffries: whe i do a _landline_ call here in .de i get a uncompressed, 8bit clean, basically latency free 64kbit channel. and lots of additional features. with ip i got more latency on the first hop than with isdn to my peer.
<rjeffries>
roh gaod bless you. I know about SS&, d'oh and am well versed in telephony. Your opinons are your opinions, but there are solid existence proof that connectionless voice works very well
<rjeffries>
they sell equipment to traditional telcos and NOBODY complains about voice quality
<roh>
rjeffries: please come back when you used a proper telephony system. ss7 based.
<rjeffries>
the comany I was emplyee #6 at just sold to another comany for $186 Million
<rjeffries>
roh you are confusing VOIP with internet voice which uses VOIP. VOIP can deliver great quality voice when it is used in a well engineered network.
<roh>
rjeffries: i can imagine that for 3rd world countries like the us when it comes to the phone system voip is interresting. for its a step into the wrong direction. NONE of the features, less availability. no serious quality. no thanks
<rjeffries>
nop VOI is far from crap. I worked for 8 years at a company that made good money with a system for TELCOS that took advantage of VOUP, then had gateway to standrad telephony
<rjeffries>
Ok roh i sure enjoy my FREE Skype calls and my FREE Google voice YMMV
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: MPLS came very very late, IETF-driven, when they realized that their telco madness didn't go anywhere.
<roh>
rjeffries: the internet didnt free voice. it broke it.
<rjeffries>
roh you are tolting after yesterdays (actually, last decade) telecom issue. thanks to Internet, a huge amount of voice is now essentially FREE
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: oh, there were a lot of interesting thought patterns in atm ... e.g., remember how desperately some people tried to dethrone TCP ? every few months, they hatched some new crazy scheme. i liked the one where they suggested to just replace TCP with SSCOP. shows some deep insights into the matter ;-))
<rjeffries>
MPLS is conncetion oriented over IP, and serves a useful purpose
<rjeffries>
actually ATM was not made by any stupid people. It is connection-based, but connextion-LESS won the day
<rjeffries>
wpwrak: I lived the ATM nightmare. Made some good money off my newsletter; ATM USER
<roh>
rjeffries: even that.
<rjeffries>
roh if you say we need Windows based dariver to talk to atUSB I would agree
<roh>
rjeffries: maybe. still people without public svn or git repos... how can one take them serious or interact with them?
<rjeffries>
roh: the guy behind Freaklabs is a cool, clever person. very creative. his idea of hooking up Wireshark to allow analysis of 802.15.4 is sweet