DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: bin/authors: only include files that still exist (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a2a7293
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<whitequa1k> someone *really* wanted to learn something about wolfgang... "/qi-hardware/search?q=wolfspraul&page=100" :)
<larsc> or only the dark secrets listed on the last pages
<whitequa1k> it's in chronological order, not reverse chronological
<whitequa1k> actually I should fix that, it makes zero sense
<whitequa1k> fixed.
<larsc> hm?
<whitequa1k> well, dark secrets are supposed to be old, aren't they?
<whitequa1k> and page 100 is recent events.
<larsc> ah
<kyak> what's so special on page 100 that one could learn about wolfgang?
<kyak> whitequa1k: the links with page numbers overlap the text that was found (in firefox)
<kyak> if there are a lot of pages (like in this case)
<whitequa1k> kyak: yeah I know
<whitequa1k> but I'm really bad with CSS
<whitequa1k> the channel names also don't scroll... and it looks horrible on mobile devices overall
<kyak> the channel list fits on my screen, luckily :)
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<larsc> ah, HURD 0.5 was released, so only another 30 years until 1.0 ;)
<ysionneau> ahah
<viric> I hope this pulls some hackers in
<ysionneau> is it really worth it? I don't know enough about HURD
<ysionneau> Has it a lot of developers? Why so?
<whitequark> I don't think so, not from a technical standpoint. It's a microkernel.
<larsc> And Linux is a macro kernel, because so many people are working on it?
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<whitequark> larsc: um, wat?
<larsc> 'Has it a lot of developers?' 'No, it's a microkernel'
<whitequark> 'is it really worth it?'
<larsc> I know :)
<larsc> I just thought that would be a funny definition
<viric> :)
<whitequark> perhaps from a bloat standpoint
<viric> I don't know how much it is a projection of my hopes, but I like what I heard about Hurd
<viric> And I dislike some of the linux pieces.
<whitequark> what's those hurd parts?
<viric> for example, how common it is in linux to run most processes as one user, with a single filesystem view;
<viric> so any process can harm any other. Now there is USER_NS, containers, virtual machines, ...
<viric> seccomp, apparmor, ...
<viric> but all that is a hell to use.
<larsc> I think android runs each app as a different user
<viric> not to mention, many operations are allowed only to root.
<whitequark> it's a question of wrapping it in a pretty gown
<whitequark> lxc does it for you
<viric> larsc: I do that with sudo for the web browser and some binary programs, ... but it's uncomfortable
<whitequark> (root) capability system exists, but it's... less than stellar. to put it mildly.
<whitequark> wasn't it that CAP_NET_ADMIN meant you could trivially elevate to root
<viric> The per-process tweaks a user can touch are little more than 'ulimit'
<larsc> I think capabilities in Linux are not the same as capabilities in the mircokernel sense
<viric> well, I mean the hurd microkernel + userland pieces, allow users (not only root) to narrow what processes can do and see
<viric> larsc: I want to limit what skype can do, or firefox. :)
<larsc> meh, flight delayed
<viric> any of those could "rm -Rf $HOME", in most common scenarios
<viric> and cause harm
<larsc> yep
<larsc> or even worse
<viric> yes, or worse
<viric> so I don't think it's a good situation
<larsc> no
<viric> and I think hurd addresses some things.
<larsc> this is why browser vendors have implemented their own sandboxing
<larsc> a capability based system of course has the sandboxing build in
<whitequark> chrome uses seccomp; hardly their own
<viric> whitequark: and USER_NS
<viric> web browser vendors play whatever they can in their field: the browser.
<viric> they play in the browser league. But a whole OS solution should be available.
<viric> some people run all in virtual machines :)
<whitequark> that works surprisingly well. I used to do it with Xen.
<whitequark> I dropped it because Xen kills ACPI S3, and it kind of kills the point of having a laptop
<viric> it is not a solved problem in Linux
<whitequark> also, no hardware acceleration
<whitequark> ok, perhaps not well at all
<viric> :)
<viric> stallman talked about some recent Intel northbridge having an integrated computer to load firmware to
<whitequark> start with your wifi firmware
<whitequark> I bet it can become a pcie bus master
<whitequark> actually, I know it can.
<viric> :)
<viric> that's a good reason to dislike blobs
<larsc> whitequark: well seccomp-bpf was implemented by a google guy
<larsc> viric: that's the Intel active management stuff
<larsc> basically a second processor that runs some firmware that can tap into peripherals
<viric> he talked about some intel cpus with 3g modems integrated
<viric> too
<viric> he wasn't very happy about intel
<whitequark> I have a notebook with this stuff, Intel Anti-Theft or something
<larsc> he is never very happy
<whitequark> targeted at enterprise loss prevention
<viric> whitequark: are you the thief?
<viric> mh I didn't know how all this was named. thank you
<ysionneau> 21:13 < larsc> I think android runs each app as a different user < indeed
<viric> this way, your computer becomes something like a virtual machine with a debugger attached
<whitequark> it's pretty sad, because intel is not exactly known for bug-free code
<whitequark> this is a trove for some hacker group to feed on
<ysionneau> 21:26 < larsc> he is never very happy < +1
<larsc> meh, the laptop battery did hardly survive one hour :/
<viric> are you doing a virtual travel from the place where you did the virtual talk?
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<wpwrak> if rms was ever "very happy", i'd be rather concerned about the immediate collateral damage those drugs might do to his physical health
<wpwrak> in fact, perhaps it's best to just call 911 in this case. tell them that "rms is very happy". that ought to qualify as a major emergency.
<wpwrak> larsc: (battery) planned obolescence vs. lars, 1:0 :)
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<ysionneau> ahah
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<larsc> viric: did a real travel