DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<hellekin> wpwrak: I'm cooking soup in the hacklab, there's pizz
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<wpwrak> at the heretics ?
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<roh> meeeh.
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<hellekin> heretics?
<roh> who was the evil dude who put a 10pin ic into a package which is only 1.8x1.4mm and 0.5mm thick?
<wpwrak> heredia
<roh> RSW (R-PUQFN-N10)
<hellekin> in Barracas. I'm going to get some beer. Cris is on her way.
<wpwrak> ah, better located hacklab :)
<hellekin> wpwrak: aristobulo del valle 1851
<roh> stay clear. dont solder by hand. and if you do: heat up some solid flux and dunk the tinned part before placing
<roh> colophonium in my case.
<wpwrak> hellekin: can't go today. but tell me a bit in advance the next time
<wpwrak> roh: (size) nice and compact :)
<hellekin> wpwrak: normally every Saturday, but I didn't expect to stay that late nor to cook :]
<hellekin> but the organic garden gave some food so
<hellekin> ok, time to get beeeeeer :]
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<wpwrak> heh :)
<wpwrak> hmm, github is stuttering
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<DocScrutinizer05> indeed
<DocScrutinizer05> btw wpwrak, you might find the PCB[-RF/aerial] design (as well as the chip) in http://www.nordicsemi.com/kor/content/download/2726/34069/file/nRF24L01P_Product_Specification_1_0.pdf inspiring
<wpwrak> keeping the antenna simple :)
<wpwrak> the chip doesn't look so sexy, though. GFSK.
<DocScrutinizer05> what's wrong with GFSK (or any modulation as long as RX and TX understand it)?
<wpwrak> yes, finding a suitable peer
<wpwrak> you're deep in non-standard land there
<DocScrutinizer05> those chips are not meant to be compatible to anything else
<wpwrak> yeah. that's why i find them somewhat unsexy
<DocScrutinizer05> and as long as the few uA in standbymode-1 are actually for idle RX with wakeup, I'm all fine with that
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm rather wondering what's RL range such a pair of transceivers can do
<wpwrak> the at86rf231 needs 20 nA in sleep
<wpwrak> 1/45 of the 900 nA bonfire that nordic chip produces ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05> mhm
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds good, indeed
<wpwrak> and it can blast the neighbourhood at a full +3 dBm
<DocScrutinizer05> and sleep means it's listening?
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<DocScrutinizer05> dang, I'm so out of hw business
<wpwrak> btw, there's now a lower-cost variant, the 232
<wpwrak> no, sleep means it's sleeping :)
<DocScrutinizer05> meh
<wpwrak> listening only to the I/O line that tells it whether to sleep or wake
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm only interested in receivers to actually *receive* and still need only uA or nA
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<DocScrutinizer05> no use in an actor that's only listening 0.01% of thime
<DocScrutinizer05> time*
<DocScrutinizer05> I need RF that can operate actors from let's say 3V 1000mAh for months
<wpwrak> listening equals receiving
<wpwrak> so, 12.1 mA in your nordic chip
<DocScrutinizer05> that's awful
<wpwrak> 11.8 mA in the at86rf232. also here, atmel wins :)
<DocScrutinizer05> I wonder what those FS20 / homematic are using
<wpwrak> the at86rf231 burnt 12.3 mA, losing by a narrow margin. guess marketing had to have that fixed :)
<DocScrutinizer05> I mean, my doorlock works a year from 4 AAA
<DocScrutinizer05> and it opens instantly when I press the button of the key transmitter
<wpwrak> make the transmitter send a continuous burst. wake up every ~50 ms, bring up the receiver (at86rf231: 380+110 us), listen for a few 100 us, go back to sleep
<wpwrak> there you are, 2% duty cycle, and it's still "instantaneous"
<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, need to have a walk to next postpox, sending out some PAR414 "backup battery" 0.06F capacitors to guys who wanna fix their phones' RTC
<wpwrak> you even have enough time to miss a few transmissions
<wpwrak> ;-)
<wpwrak> interest timing for going postal :)
<DocScrutinizer05> air is better now
<DocScrutinizer05> you know, here it's summer
<DocScrutinizer05> in daytime it's been unbearable
<DocScrutinizer05> well, actually today 'only' 32°C
<DocScrutinizer05> 5° less than the last 2 days
<DocScrutinizer05> can the RX start up in such short time, to full operation and sensitivity?
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<DocScrutinizer05> well, probably it should, considering the number of full sine waves at e.g. 680MHz
<wpwrak> 32 C *snicker*
<DocScrutinizer05> even 4 times as many on those chips we discussed
<DocScrutinizer05> I know, you need gloves and a thick jacket to survive such low temperatures
<wpwrak> 110 us from sleep to xtal up, 380 us from that to receiving, yes
<DocScrutinizer05> mhm
<DocScrutinizer05> 0.5ms
<DocScrutinizer05> well
<DocScrutinizer05> fair enough
<wpwrak> those chips have other issues, but rf slowness is not one of them
<DocScrutinizer05> then we're actually at 100some uA
<DocScrutinizer05> plus overhead for the controller
<wpwrak> yeah
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm looking for chips that have such duty cycle powersaving integrated
<DocScrutinizer05> a simple carrier detect was already fine, of course a MAC addr decoding even better
<wpwrak> there's a problem with the MAC protocol. it requires CSMA, so you get a hefty extra delay you can't control. this means that you effectively have to stay on the air a bit longer.
<wpwrak> but you can play tricks, e.g., see if there's a carrier, even if you missed the beginning of the frame
<wpwrak> if you see a carrier, then stay up a bit longer
<DocScrutinizer05> that's what I meant
<wpwrak> if you really want to go primitive, only check the RSSI and make the sender emit a constant wave (it can do that in test mode) ;-)
<wpwrak> of course, all your wlan-loving neighbours will hate you ... ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> I hate that idiot spider that always checks path /b/c/d when somewhere it finds an URL /a/b/c/d
<DocScrutinizer05> spams my server logs each night
<DocScrutinizer05> 404 Not Found
<DocScrutinizer05> /950/myimages/xtract/flasher32/usr/share/doc/copyright: 2 Time(s)
<DocScrutinizer05> /950/myimages/xtract/flasher32/usr/share/flasher: 1 Time(s)
<DocScrutinizer05> actually it checks /a/b/d
<DocScrutinizer05> must be microsoft
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: The "tr1" namespace is no longer needed now that we're on C++11 (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/fb8f4e6
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Do not draw NULL icon (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/dd55b72
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Restrict access to Link::recalcCoordinates() (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/a7b3166
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Cleaned up Menu::loadIcons() (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/40372d1
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Moved most Menu::loadIcons() code into Link/LinkApp classes (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/a9b5d8b
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Made ASFont::utf8Code() a function in inputdialog.cpp instead (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/0046fa9
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Renamed ASFont class to just Font (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/724aefe
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Don't construct non-functional Font objects (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/f8dc4c7
<qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Put main loop painting code in separate methods (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/cbe7735
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: at86rf231 is one chip, with RF and MCU, no?
<DocScrutinizer05> btw r0let's antenna is quite "different": chip antenna plus a pcb triangle pad nearby, as far as I can see it
<DocScrutinizer05> r0ket's*
<DocScrutinizer05> http://www.johansontechnology.com/images/stories/ip/rf-antennas/Antenna_2450AT42A100_08-29-2008.pdf I honestly wonder if that triangle copperpad nearby has seen any considerations regarding RF
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<DocScrutinizer05> ooh, nevermind, it's just a silly lightgreen silkscreen printing
<DocScrutinizer05> btw those guys are real hackers :-) they dualuse LED3 (red, upper right, charge-LED, PIO1_11) as ambient light sensor. Feels almost like one of my original designs
<wpwrak> the 231 has no mcu. there others that integrate an avr. but better get something decent
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<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: do you know why green LEDs get a red component and thus shine yellowish when operated at or above upper current limit?
<wpwrak> naw, never noticed such an effect
<whitequark> oh, there indeed is one
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<unclouded> I always wondered why that was
<DocScrutinizer05> well, if nothing is published anywhere about that, we have one simple option: find out by ourselves about a few parameters
<DocScrutinizer05> I lately got a nice electronically controlled reflow hot air tool. Might test if it's temperature
<DocScrutinizer05> cost me an LED ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> what I already know: the effect is accumulative, I.E. it builds up and increases while current stays same
<DocScrutinizer05> and it's (mostly?) reversible - though LEDs tend to get dimmer, resp they efficiency seems to drop. They deteriorate
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd suspect some effect that's closely related to the semiconductor crystal deteriorating due to heat
<whitequark> interesting
<whitequark> I know that temperature changes bandgap voltage, which in turn directly affects color
<whitequark> it's very visible if you e.g. put the led in liquid nitrogen
<whitequark> I'd expect that heating it up would redistribute impurities (?) changing bandgap voltage as well?
<whitequark> or no, actually, that prolly has nothing to do with impurities
<whitequark> just the temperature.
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<roh> .s
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<lunavorax> Hello everyone
<lunavorax> I've just become aware of the OLinuXino project
<lunavorax> Any thoughts about that?