cfbolz changed the topic of #pypy to: PyPy, the flexible snake (IRC logs: https://quodlibet.duckdns.org/irc/pypy/latest.log.html#irc-end ) | use cffi for calling C | if a pep adds a mere 25-30 [C-API] functions or so, it's a drop in the ocean (cough) - Armin
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-s390x/builds/1361 [mattip: force build, release-pypy3.6-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/4874 [mattip: force build, release-pypy3.6-v7.x]
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-aarch64/builds/114 [mattip: force build, release-pypy3.6-v7.x]
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<mattip> whohoo, translation of py3.6 on aarch64 succeeded for the release
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<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/6689 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/7738 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-s390x/builds/1363 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/5472 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/6511 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-macosx-x86-64/builds/4650 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-linux-x86-32/builds/229 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-linux-x86-64/builds/232 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<kingsley> I've been steadily improving my benchmark.
<kingsley> I tried to let it find
<kingsley> 1.) the fastest number of multiplications to do, which may depend on any given CPU's cache size. For example, POWER9 evidently has a big 120 MB L3 cache, so maybe it would perform each multiplication faster if, in total, more are done.
<kingsley> 2.) the fastest number of CPU cores to actually use.
<kingsley> Plus, I cut down my python bench mark to just 15 lines of code. All commented.
<kingsley> I've been testing it on an old AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5200+.
<kingsley> It has 2 cores.
<kingsley> Each runs at 2.6 GHz.
<kingsley> Its cache is evidently only a fraction of POWER9: 2 MB.
<kingsley> I ran it with python2, python3 and pypy.
<kingsley> Since python2 and 3 performed similarly, I simplified the chart of results to only python3 and pypy.
<kingsley> They're at
<kingsley> As you can see, the speed the benchmark was fastest for pypy3 using both cores to multiply about 100,000,000 floating point numbers.
<kingsley> I'd love to see how fast more cores with bigger caches are.
<kingsley> Like on a newer computer.
<kingsley> Ideally using IBM's POWER9 CPUs.
<kingsley> My short and sweet bench mark is at
<kingsley> Please consider running it with pypy3 and letting us, and at least me, know how it is on your computers.
<kingsley> And which CPU(s) you used.
<kingsley> It seems to me that knowing how to run a language as popular as python fast is a good thing.
<kingsley> So
<mattip> kingsley: please try to engage with responses to your previous posts here, IRC is a two-way communication channel
<kingsley> mattip: Is there a particular response you'd suggest I engage with?
<mattip> <arigato> sorry, I'm trying to explain why I don't believe you're really doing something interesting here
<mattip> <arigato> float multiplication is an extreme example: you could try to benchmark it by writing C code---at least you have a better idea of what you're really testing, but it is still a hard exercice
<mattip> <arigato> the point in pypy is that any float multiply turns into just one CPU instruction after a lot of JIT-compiling takes place
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<kingsley> mattip: Thank you.
<kingsley> It seems to me that arigato raised reasonable concerns.
<kingsley> If I might offer my point of view...
<kingsley> The C programming language is revered, respected, popular, and all those good things.
<kingsley> But, so is python.
<kingsley> Especially for data science.
<kingsley> You can see this is so because it's ranked as a popular language for data scientists at
<kingsley> arigato also wrote that pypy's JIT-compiling reduces any float multiplication into a machine instruction.
<kingsley> I hope he or she is right.
<kingsley> It'd be a cool accomplishment.
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<kingsley> And, I would like to humbly add that even if it's 100% correct, benchmarks, including mine, can discern other interesting ways to maximize performance.
<mattip> you could check it by translating your benchmark to C, that should provide a lower bound
<kingsley> For example, my bench mark revealed
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-win-x86-32/builds/203 [mattip: force build, release-pypy3.6-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-win-x86-32/builds/204 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<kingsley> speed per multiplication increased up to about 100,000,000 total floating point multiplications on an AMD Athlon.
<kingsley> I wonder if a newer CPU with more cores and bigger cache would have a different optimum.
<kingsley> mattip: You suggested translating my benchmark to C to ascertain a lower bound.
<kingsley> Yes, faster is generally better, and C is generally faster.
<kingsley> At run time.
<kingsley> But, there's also the matter of how long it takes to implement a working application.
<kingsley> For a low level device driver?
<kingsley> OK, I believe C is a reasonable choice.
<kingsley> But, for high level applications like data science, AI and machine learning, well, python rocks!
<mattip> no, you seen to be missing my point. I will try one last time. You are writing a microbenchmark, not at all generalized code
<mattip> so any considerations of "how long it takes to implement this code" are irrelevant, as are comparisons across CPUs
<mattip> to compare CPUs, you want stable code that you can look at the low-level assembly (or lower) and see what is going on
<mattip> so something like https://godbolt.org/
<mattip> microbenchmarks are useful only when holding everything else constant and changing just one thing
<mattip> </rant>
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-s390x/builds/1363 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-32/builds/6689 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-x86-64/builds/7738 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Success: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-32/builds/5472 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-macosx-x86-64/builds/4650 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-x86-64/builds/6511 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-win-x86-32/builds/2145 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-linux-x86-32/builds/229 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-linux-x86-64/builds/232 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<tos9> mattip: hm interesting site
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<mattip> s/interesting/fantastically valuable/
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<tos9> hey I'm a simple guy
<tos9> I'm sure it'll go from interesting to valuable as soon as I figure out how to use this well :)
<mattip> tos9: it has helped to debug a few deep weird issues, like https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/11036#issuecomment-386200839
<mattip> where some compilers were re-ordering code at some optimizer levels
<tos9> fascinating
<mattip> :)
<cfbolz> tos9: you should follow @johnregehr on twitter, he regularly uses godbolt to show interesting things C compiler do or don't do
<cfbolz> also, hi!
<tos9> awesome, /me follows
<tos9> cfbolz: also hi! How goes
<gracinet> mattip: Hi, how is it going with tests of PyPy on Heptapod?
<cfbolz> tos9: pretty good! t-14 on baby ;-)
<cfbolz> you?
<tos9> cfbolz: amazing, happy for you
<tos9> yeah going well enough
<tos9> just sponsored pygotham.. now probably trying to figure out the right moment to switch jobs :)
<tos9> feel fairly zen though these days so really can't complain
<cfbolz> hehe, sounds good
<mattip> gracinet: truth be told, I haven't had much cause to try it out deeply
<mattip> the test will be if we open it up to users to file issues/merge requests and see how commits made to heptopod reflect back to mercurial
<gracinet> mattip: no worries, I simply wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any blockers
<cfbolz> gracinet: there was one piece of feedback by fijal
<cfbolz> fijal: ping?
<gracinet> mattip: but then, you'd create a divergence from the current official repo
<cfbolz> gracinet: why? can't we push back and forth?
<gracinet> (can be a no-issue with appropriate policy)
<gracinet> cfbolz: yes that's what I mean with "policy"
<cfbolz> right
<mattip> I think the request was to have the branch name reflected in the commit view
<gracinet> mattip: currently, we have it at the end of the commit message unless it's 'default', I think
<gracinet> but that's actually a side effect of how we expose data to GitLab
<gracinet> (random example)
<cfbolz> gracinet: ah, I think fijal wanted to only see the commits from the actual branch in this view: https://testpypy.heptapod.net/pypy-2019-10-01/pypy/commits/branch/record-known-result
<cfbolz> not also all parents before the branch was created
<gracinet> later down the road, we'll introduce hg-specific information in the web pages (I prefer to do it after we've catched up a bit with GitLab)
<gracinet> cfbolz: checking this
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<cfbolz> anyway, it's possible to get this view with the compare view, basically, like this: https://testpypy.heptapod.net/pypy-2019-10-01/pypy/compare/branch%2Fdefault...branch%2Frecord-known-result
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<gracinet> cfbolz: another possibility, since it's displayed as part of the commit message, is to filter by it in the branch view. I agree it's not very satisfying
<cfbolz> that's not bad!
<gracinet> that means you have to copy-paste the branch name in the search field, though
<gracinet> we can look into improving these views with Mercurial-specific filtering etc, but again I'd prefer to do it later than sooner :-)
<arigato> If that is the extent of our "blockers" I think that means we're pretty happy
<gracinet> in the meanwhile, don't hesitate to file these as issues on dev.heptapod.net, it'll help us keep track of what users want, even if I end up scheduling them for later versions
<gracinet> arigatoi: :p
<gracinet> More specifically, are you happy with how issues have been imported from bitbucket ?
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-s390x/builds/1150 [mattip: force build, release-pypy3.6-v7.x]
<cfbolz> gracinet: about issues: the usernames need mapping, somehow
<cfbolz> or we need to know the original user names in the issues somehow
<cfbolz> also, we need to persist the original issue numbers in some way
<gracinet> cfbolz: I reckon it does. The thing is, it's supposed to map automatically if people's accounts have been tied to their Bitbucket account (I suppose that means they logged in with the SSO capability of Heptapod). And that's a bit too much to ask
<cfbolz> yes, particularly for drive-by issue openers
<gracinet> I have the same problem with other imports, what would be an appropriate minimum for you ?
<cfbolz> gracinet: replace the "Created by: Anonymous" with "Created by: bitbucket user"
<cfbolz> I mean, the actual user name
<gracinet> cfbolz: and also, I can have only one OAuth2 bitbucket application at a given time. I'm not finished exploring the consequences of this, but it could be inacceptable permission -wise for SSO logins
<gracinet> cfbolz: I'll look at possibilities, didn't introspect what Heptapod actually receives from Bitbucket (hope it's not a numeric id)
<cfbolz> ok
<gracinet> I'll keep you guys posted about this anyway
<cfbolz> gracinet: thanks for all your hard work!
<gracinet> depends how much you are in a hurry to reach a decision
<gracinet> cfbolz: my pleasure !
<cfbolz> gracinet: we are not super in a hurry yet, I think
<cfbolz> gracinet: out of curiosity, how hard is it to keep up with gitlab evoluation?
<gracinet> cfbolz: I'm just being started on that
<gracinet> did a patch-number update for Heptapod 0.6 (GitLab 10.1.4 -> 10.1.7), that was pretty trivial
<gracinet> had to do some work in Heptapod itself to properly track the branches upstream GitLab uses, will bump to 10.2 or 10.3 for Heptapod 0.7
<gracinet> We already know that GitLab 11 will require us to implement a big server-side component, and that's also what will allow us to get rid of hg-git
<cfbolz> oh, interesting!
<gracinet> that being said, repository integration is but a tiny part of GitLab, so I'm not too worried
<gracinet> but we will need support, that's for sure
<gracinet> (financial support or contributor time)
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-aarch64/builds/117 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<gracinet> btw, if you wanna help Heptapod now, a simple action is to register accounts on dev.heptapod.net
<gracinet> we'll use that as justification that we have traction for OpenCollective
<gracinet> (instead of GitHub stars)
<cfbolz> heh, easy enough
<cfbolz> done
<gracinet> cool, thanks (please pass the word)
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/rpython-win-x86-32/builds/204 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<kenaan> cfbolz default 5dd2d3cca75b /rpython/jit/metainterp/quasiimmut.py: debug-print quasi-immutable invalidations (been wanting that since a while)
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-win-x86-32/builds/2145 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/4877 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<mattip> tumbleweed: the previous 2.7 rc was tagged release-pypy2.7-v7.2.0rc0, but I also made release-pypy3.6-v7.2.0rc1
<mattip> can I now skip rc1 and go directly to release-pypy2.7-v7.2.0rc2 to sync the rc numbers?
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<gracinet> cfbolz: https://dev.heptapod.net/heptapod/heptapod/issues/102 - seems like resolution shouldn't be too hard
<tumbleweed> mattip: sure
<mattip> thanks
<kenaan> mattip default e1741b330c9d /.hgtags: Added tags for v7.2.0rc2
<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-win-x86-32/builds/4877 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
<bbot2> Started: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-aarch64/builds/117 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/own-linux-aarch64/builds/117 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<kenaan> stevie_92 cpyext-gc-cycle 30c564b06dd8 /: Check state during cpyext rrc gc processing (incorrect state after garbage handling) Handle non-gc obje...
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<kenaan> rlamy default 9b953c97479f /requirements.txt: Stop updating hypothesis: 4.40 is incompatible with our ancient pytest
<kingsley> Does pypy use LLVM?
<Alex_Gaynor> No
<mattip> cfbolz: do you have a clue about what happened to unicode_encode_utf_8_elidable on win32? It no longer translates py3.6
<mattip> the error is "expected SomeUnicodeString(), got SomeUnicodeString(can_be_None=True)"
<mattip> so probably missing an assert "s is not None" somewhere
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<bbot2> Failure: http://buildbot.pypy.org/builders/pypy-c-jit-linux-aarch64/builds/117 [mattip: force build, release-pypy2.7-v7.x]
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<firespeaker> are there known issues with numpy and pypy3
<firespeaker> ?
<mattip> no, but you should use a ppy3 nightly
<firespeaker> ah hm
<firespeaker> not debian unstable :-P
<mattip> numpy will be fine with unstable, but you may encounter problems with other parts of the scientific stack
<firespeaker> Original error was: No module named 'numpy.core._multiarray_umath'
<firespeaker> I get this at "import numpy"
<firespeaker> with debian unstable versions of pypy3 and numpy
<firespeaker> I'll install nightly pypy3 though
<mattip> it should spit out alot of other information
<firespeaker> it sure does
<mattip> can you put it on a pastebin (not here)
<mattip> you are using pypy3, but trying to load numpy from the cpython3 site-packages
<firespeaker> hm, and what should I be trying to do (given that I believe I want to be using pypy3)?
<mattip> they use different c-extension modules, so that won't work. Are you setting your sys.path or PYTHONPATH?
<firespeaker> not overriding any settings of those, but they could well be set by the system
<firespeaker> oh, "requires installation of our fork of upstream numpy"
<firespeaker> I guess I should do that instead of pypy nightlies
<mattip> no, where do you see that outdated and invalid text?
<firespeaker> aha "Historical release notes"
<firespeaker> so I'll install pypy nightlies after all
<mattip> I wonder why you have /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages in your sys.path
<firespeaker> hm, the nightly seems to be pypy2
<firespeaker> mattip: debian
<mattip> that doesn't make sense. Do you have $PYTHONSTARTUP defined?
<firespeaker> nope, empty
<mattip> what happens if you do "pypy3 -I 'import sys; print(sys.path)'"
<mattip> is /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages still there?
<firespeaker> $ pypy3 -I 'import sys; print(sys.path)'
<firespeaker> FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'import sys; print(sys.path)'
<mattip> "pypy3 -I -c 'import sys; print(sys.path)'"
<mattip> sorry
<firespeaker> I just did a new install of pypy3 with apt on another debian unstable machine and get this: ['', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib_pypy/__extensions__', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib_pypy', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages']
<firespeaker> $ pypy3 -I -c 'import sys; print(sys.path)'
<firespeaker> ['/usr/lib/pypy3/lib_pypy/__extensions__', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib_pypy', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3/lib-tk', '/usr/lib/pypy3/lib-python/3/plat-linux2', '/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages']
<firespeaker> and yeah, the output of that is identical on both machines
<firespeaker> #shrugs# everyone tells me not to run debian unstable because of things like this
<firespeaker> </pariah>
<firespeaker> it's my own fault :(
<mattip> if you try the same code with cpython3 what do you get?
<mattip> it seems you will need to build your own numpy, I do not see a pypy3-numpy at https://packages.debian.org/unstable/python/
<mattip> so you will need pypy3-dev and then "pypy3 pip3 install --user numpy"
<mattip> but that will not get you a numpy with openblas acceleration
<cfbolz> mattip: ouch sorry. No, don't know what happened off-hand, will look tomorrow
<cfbolz> Strange that it works on Linux
<mattip> it is in str_decode_mbsc, which uses rffi.scoped_alloc_unicodebuffer(usize).str, which can indeed return None
<mattip> but I don't really understand why it would ever do that
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<mattip> gaa win32 is such a mess. Maybe someday someone will sponsor 64-bit and we can clean it all up.
<mattip> I think they are moving away from mbsc anyway
<mattip> darn, missed the cutoff
<firespeaker> mattip: ah, okay, that sounds straightfoward enough
<firespeaker> and yeah, there's no pypy3-numpy
<firespeaker> $ pypy3 pip3 install --user numpy
<firespeaker> FileNotFoundError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'pip3'
<firespeaker> mattip: is this how pip3 is run with pypy3?
<firespeaker> hmm looks like I should install pip3 for pypy3
<firespeaker> oh hm this looks messy
<firespeaker> mattip: also, in response to your earlier question: $ python3 -I -c 'import sys; print(sys.path)'
<firespeaker> ['/usr/lib/python37.zip', '/usr/lib/python3.7', '/usr/lib/python3.7/lib-dynload', '/usr/local/lib/python3.7/dist-packages', '/usr/local/lib/python3.7/dist-packages/apertium_quality-0.3-py3.7.egg', '/usr/local/lib/python3.7/dist-packages/mwtools-0.7-py3.7.egg', '/usr/lib/python3/dist-packages']
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<firespeaker> also, I suppose this is no longer your stance?
<firespeaker> (2019-10-10 17:09:37) mattip: numpy will be fine with unstable, but you may encounter problems with other parts of the scientific stack
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<firespeaker> mattip: I think I don't have a working pip module for pypy3: https://bpaste.net/show/wnS5
<firespeaker> having trouble installing it though, "ensurepip is disabled in Debian/Ubuntu for the system python."
<firespeaker> agh what a mess
<tos9> eh?
<tos9> firespeaker: pypy3 is your system python? that doesn't sound likely
<firespeaker> no, it's not
<firespeaker> any thoughts?
<tos9> pypy3 reading from /usr/lib/python3 doesn't seem right either
<tos9> your system is in some odd state
<tos9> tell me waht you've done :) (what you ran mostly, or maybe specifically, what's in your environment)
<firespeaker> yeah, thanks for reminding me that vanilla debian unstable is fail
<tos9> And where you got your pypy3 from
<firespeaker> apt
<tos9> ok interesting
<tos9> I mean, firstly what happens if you reinstall it
<firespeaker> it's like this on all my debian unstable machines
<firespeaker> same deal
<tos9> and you're sure you have nothing in your environment?
<firespeaker> I've installed pypy3 fresh on a couple machines now and I get the same thing
<firespeaker> tos9: be more explicit
<firespeaker> which environment variables
<tos9> firespeaker: anything Python related.
<firespeaker> nope
<firespeaker> certainly not on all the machines
<tos9> ok, well, I don't use debian, and yeah it does funny things with Python
<tos9> but if this is "expected", the only reasonable explanation is that it wants to share some stdlib between cpython3 and pypy3
<tos9> so did you try following that step there and installing python-pip?
<firespeaker> tos9: or that the pypy debian packager thought it made sense in the middle of the night when drunk
<firespeaker> which step?
<tos9> the one in your pastebin saying "don't use ensurepip, run apt install python-pip"
<firespeaker> python3-pip is already the newest version (18.1-5).
<tos9> k
<firespeaker> I'll try python2 pip?
<tos9> no shouldn't be
<firespeaker> yeah nope
<tos9> does that command work with cpython
<tos9> python3 -m pip -V or whatever
<firespeaker> $ python3 -m ensurepip
<firespeaker> /usr/bin/python3: No module named ensurepip
<tos9> no, your pip command
<firespeaker> oh
<firespeaker> python3 -m pip -V
<firespeaker> /usr/bin/python3: No module named pip
<firespeaker> huh
<tos9> pip._vendor.packaging is used for both
<tos9> yeah something is not right here
<firespeaker> debian unstable ftw \o/
<firespeaker> huh okay it works on one system
<firespeaker> $ python3 -m pip -V
<firespeaker> pip 18.1 from /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/pip (python 3.7)
<tos9> and what about pypy3 on that system
<firespeaker> major backtrace
<firespeaker> huh looks like I have a /usr/local/lib/pypy3.6/dist-packages/pip/ directory on the first machine
<firespeaker> probably from when I ran pypy3 get-pip.py a few minutes ago :-P
<firespeaker> but it didn't make anything work
<firespeaker> haha, especially given that no /usr/local/lib/* anything is in sys.path for pypy3
<firespeaker> me adds it?
<firespeaker> $ pypy3 -m pip -V
<firespeaker> pip 19.2.3 from /usr/local/lib/pypy3.6/dist-packages/pip (python 3.6)
<firespeaker> okay, that was productive
<firespeaker> $ pypy3 -m pip install --user numpy
<firespeaker> lol
<firespeaker> Requirement already satisfied: numpy in /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages (1.16.5)
<tos9> I mean running this in a docker container produces somewhat similar but occasionally slightly different errors
<firespeaker> o_O
<tos9> but yeah I think to me this just seems mispackaged on debian's part
<firespeaker> oh looks like I'm not the first person to complain about this: https://www.mail-archive.com/debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org/msg1704803.html
<firespeaker> tos9: yeah what else is new
<tos9> I *guess* they're thinking "oh we can basically reuse python3-* instead of having pypy specific packages"
<tos9> but that doesn't work for non-universal wheels? So not sure how that idea would make sense
<tos9> I am... quite surprised to see this is how they tried to make this work though
<tos9> Maybe someone else is more informed, but they're all likely asleep on EU hours
<firespeaker> so what can be done?
<firespeaker> just poke people when they're awak?
<firespeaker> e
<tos9> Yes -- also I have vague recollection that the debian maintainer is in here
<firespeaker> would not be surprised
<tos9> So maybe they'll straighten me / us out tomorrow and explain whatever I'm missing
<firespeaker> :D
<tos9> (it's also possible debian does things I don't know about, like have the ability to somehow swap out the target files for a package with the same name based on whatever the current system alternative is or whatever it's called? I really do know quite little about it)
<tos9> but yeah I think your best option is either to ask again in the morning, but pypy folks will likely not have much more info on debian's packaging choices, or better is likely filing a bug on the debian issue tracker with a reproducer saying you can't install pip to pypy3
<tos9> or give up on all of this and just install portable pypy
<firespeaker> portable pypy?
<firespeaker> isn't debian's preferred method for reporting issues to send stuff to the mailing list?
<firespeaker> it's like git; I tried to submit a patch to their documentation as a PR, and they were like "why don't you just email this patch to our mailing list"
<firespeaker> and I was like, I have better things to do; git's documentation can go with some ambiguity for all I care. if they want to fix it they can
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<firespeaker> I sent an email response to the debian bug but it seemed to disappear into the ether
<firespeaker> oh there it is :D
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