<mtsd>
I try my best.. So far I have mostly produced raised eyebrows and puzzled looks ;)
* beneroth
gets early millenium internet nostalgia
<beneroth>
mtsd, haha, same
<beneroth>
well I trained to people into picolisp so far. but the one who doesn't work for me anymore is probably not using it anymore at all.
<beneroth>
s/to/two
<mtsd>
I keep my covert ops going. Replacing one, old, Django web application at the time
<beneroth>
haha, nice!
<mtsd>
Some people here have used Pil apps for about 4 years now, without even knowing
<mtsd>
No one has complained either :)
<mtsd>
I feel the millenium internet nostalgia too. Very nice, looking at pictures from christmas celebrations now
<Regenaxer>
ret
<Regenaxer>
The first question would be, how many people can be expected?
<beneroth>
I would be surprised if we could get more than a handful... maximum a dozen, I think
<beneroth>
aw- surely would come if he knows early enough and can plan the long journey, I suspect
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, did you meet him?
<beneroth>
question is, do we want just a simple meetup without much organization, or a proper picolisp congress, maybe with presentations if people like to present something in detail :)
<Regenaxer>
No, never met aw-
<beneroth>
I don't think ge0 could come?
<Regenaxer>
Yeah, too far for both of them
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
Geo has family
<beneroth>
I probably would come together with Morris, so 2
<Regenaxer>
But Geo was half a year at NCR Augsburg
<beneroth>
ah
<Regenaxer>
and he was even born in Germany :)
<Regenaxer>
In any case it would be a small meeting
<beneroth>
quality over quantity
<beneroth>
like pil code
<Regenaxer>
:)
<mtsd>
I think a small meeting would be best.
<mtsd>
We are a small community, and we have not done any meetings before
<mtsd>
I'll come.
<mtsd>
beneroth, Morris, Regenaxer and myself. 4 so far
<Regenaxer>
I'll think about place and accomodation first, then we should announce in the mailing list and see what feedback we get
<beneroth>
I'm sure freemint will come if he can
<beneroth>
he is probably less flexible than us
<Regenaxer>
Circular dependencies, how many, when, where
<mtsd>
Asking on the mailing list is probably a good start. Check how many people are interested
<beneroth>
Regenaxer should first decide in which time it would fit him
<Regenaxer>
I thought of Schlemmerhütte too, it is very nice an new, but a bit expensive
<Regenaxer>
about 70 € per night
<Regenaxer>
Vidyuth Kini stayed there a few times
* beneroth
finds this price acceptable
<Regenaxer>
they have only 8 rooms also
<Regenaxer>
There are also cheaper ones, Sonnenhof, but a bit primitive
<beneroth>
how is the misconfigured rooster in your neighbourhood?
<Regenaxer>
?
<Regenaxer>
at night?
<beneroth>
3 or 4 in the morning, if remember correctly
<Regenaxer>
Did not hear him a while
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<mtsd>
Almost like having small children... ;)
<Regenaxer>
They still have chickens, but meanwhile the one is eaten perhaps :)
<mtsd>
Waking up at impossible hours
<beneroth>
Sonnenhof looks good, too
<Regenaxer>
Ah, we now also have "Kulturbahnhof"
<Regenaxer>
100 m from here
<Regenaxer>
I think that would be best
<mtsd>
Sonnenhof looks fine, I think
<Regenaxer>
ok
<beneroth>
Kulturbahnhof? at the train station close to you?
<Regenaxer>
So I will investigate a little
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
it is operated by buch7.de
<Regenaxer>
and the owner of Buch7 is Benedikt, the owner of the above chickens
<Regenaxer>
It is possible to rent a not too big room in Kulturbahnhof
<Regenaxer>
Don't know about the prices
<beneroth>
Langweid companies like the 7 somehow...
<mtsd>
I can send a message to the mailing list and check the interest
<Regenaxer>
haha, true
<Regenaxer>
mtsd, great
<beneroth>
maybe Kulturbahnhof has a good room for our confrerence
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
Buch7 is an interesting company
<beneroth>
a book publisher?
<beneroth>
or trader
<beneroth>
trader eh?
<Regenaxer>
They donate all profits
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
but they decided never to grow
<beneroth>
oh interesting
<Regenaxer>
What remains after salaries is donated
<beneroth>
ah ok, so they make a living from it, but the surplus is donated?
<Regenaxer>
buch7.de
<Regenaxer>
I bought all recent books there
<Regenaxer>
yep
<beneroth>
nice concept
<Regenaxer>
indeed
<Regenaxer>
cause we have "Buchpreisbindung" in Germany books are overpriced
<beneroth>
ah btw I have finished reading "Ein König für Deutschland" for a while now. the first half I found a bit slow, so I didn't progress fast... but I loved the second half, read it very quickly
<aw->
CCC in December, sorry I can't make it
<Regenaxer>
Yeah, cool book
<Regenaxer>
Hi aw-!
<beneroth>
ah yes. we don't have this anymore in CH, I think. which means the big stores out-compete the small ones.
<aw->
hi Regenaxer beneroth
<mtsd>
Hi aw-
<beneroth>
aw-, we're talking about a picolisp meetup in langweid
<aw->
mtsd: ;)
<beneroth>
at Regenaxers town
<aw->
when ?
<Regenaxer>
Not decided
<beneroth>
not yet defined
<aw->
oh ok
<beneroth>
when would fit you? :D
<Regenaxer>
For aw- we must make it in summer bf course
<Regenaxer>
of
<aw->
spring or summer is probably fine, no winter please :P
<Regenaxer>
sure :)
<aw->
would love to visit Germany
<mtsd>
Regenaxer, I have promised to buy you a beer, several times now. Time to make good on the promise :)
<Regenaxer>
ok :)
<aw->
yes I will also buy Regenaxer a beer or more
<Regenaxer>
cool, enough beer then
<beneroth>
mtsd, you know Regenaxer is measuring calories intake in beers ;-)
<beneroth>
pretty clever
<beneroth>
I'll buy the Schnitzel menus then
<mtsd>
Nice idea :)
<mtsd>
buch7.de holds quite a few lisp books, I see
<Regenaxer>
I will first ask Benedikt for the conditions
<Regenaxer>
then we decide what to make public
<mtsd>
Good. I will write to the mailing list when we know more about the conditions
<Regenaxer>
yep
<beneroth>
thank you Regenaxer!
<Regenaxer>
Not sure yet if it works out
<beneroth>
no worries
<Regenaxer>
yeah :)
<Regenaxer>
Maybe we can also organize a guided tour at BTG, the oldest still-running PicoLisp customer
<mtsd>
That would be great!
<Regenaxer>
Just 4 km from here, I can get a small bus
<mtsd>
Good for BTG to meet the community :)
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
oh that would be awesome
<aw->
btw has anyone noticed picolisp on github has 114 stars?
<aw->
not bad
<Regenaxer>
really? cool!
<beneroth>
oh wow
<beneroth>
what is the current mailing list count, Regenaxer ?
<Regenaxer>
199 including me and the archiver
<Regenaxer>
wait
<Regenaxer>
ok, no, 198
<mtsd>
Not too bad
<aw->
awesome
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<aw->
Regenaxer: beneroth mtsd i'm looking at end of March
<aw->
during summer it will be Olympics here in Japan, so I'd rather not have any flights out of the country around then, prices will likely be sky high
<Regenaxer>
Oh, I see. March is still cold usually though
<aw->
how cold?
<Regenaxer>
Well, hard to say. In central Europe the weather is extemely changable
<Regenaxer>
Could be below zero, or up to 25 °C
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<aw->
wow, even end of March?
<Regenaxer>
yeax
<Regenaxer>
h
<Regenaxer>
Even May it may be below zero
<Regenaxer>
"Eisheilige"
<aw->
:|
<Regenaxer>
But May is often near 30
<Regenaxer>
Most stable is autumn, September
<Regenaxer>
not too hot any more ;)
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<Regenaxer>
When are the Olympics?
<aw->
no idea, sometime in summer
<aw->
July or August
<Regenaxer>
true, summer is crowded everywhere
<Regenaxer>
and expensive
<Regenaxer>
Maybe target early autumn then?
<Regenaxer>
or after second half of May
<aw->
that will be difficult for me
<Regenaxer>
ok
<aw->
anyways as long as it's not -30 i can handle "cold"
<Regenaxer>
yeah, but it is nicer for all of us if we can also walk around outside, or sit in the sun
<aw->
true true
<mtsd>
Yes, I agree
<aw->
ok well you guys decide a good time and i'll see
<mtsd>
Would be nice to walk around and have a look at the village
<Regenaxer>
we surely find a point in time
<Regenaxer>
Langweid is not very interesting
<mtsd>
I like looking around anyway. Interesting to see new places, I think
<Regenaxer>
(at least not the nature if you are from Canada, Sweden or Suisse)
<Regenaxer>
ok :)
<mtsd>
Well, I live in Stockholm, so not that much nature around me, unfortunately :)
<Regenaxer>
true
<mtsd>
Saw more of it growing up, in a smaller town.
<Regenaxer>
Lets see what Geo thinks
<Regenaxer>
too bad he doenst show up here often
<Regenaxer>
And the one with least difficulties to attend es rob_w - he lives 3 km away :)
<mtsd>
Oh, I didn't know that :)
<mtsd>
I'll look for ways to get to Augsburg from here.
<Regenaxer>
The easiest is by train
<Regenaxer>
either from Sweden or Munich airport ;)
<Regenaxer>
Station is 100 m from here
<Regenaxer>
and *directly* at Kulturbahnhof of course
<Regenaxer>
Direct trains from München main station, one hour
<Regenaxer>
about 40 by train from München Airport to München main station
<Regenaxer>
40 minutes
<mtsd>
Probably fly to München from here, yes
<rob_w>
picolisp conference ?? ;-) love it !
<Regenaxer>
:)
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<freemint>
Regenaxer, can you point me to it?
<Regenaxer>
Hi freemint, point to where?
<beneroth>
re
<beneroth>
hi freemint :)
<beneroth>
the pil meetup was just discussed here in IRC, nothing official yet :)
<beneroth>
I hope you come to if you can?
<beneroth>
nice mail you wrote on ML ;-)
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<freemint>
Regenaxer, i asked yesterday about a best practice/guide to setup picolisp with httpGate + Let's Encrypt.
<Regenaxer>
yes, I said that this is good (at least I use this setup)
<freemint>
Ahh, i am strugging with the how.
<freemint>
beneroth, have sen no dates while skimming the discussion
<freemint>
I am currently stcuk with, "what do i need to put in names and which of the thousands of Let's encrypt bots is compatible"
<freemint>
Before i ran everything through a NGINX which handled let's encyrpt but now i to go with only httpgate
<Regenaxer>
You checked doc/httpGate.html ?
<freemint>
Yes
<Regenaxer>
For Let's Encrypt I did apt install certbot
<freemint>
Ok
<Regenaxer>
Then $ certbot certonly --standalone -d <domain>
<Regenaxer>
and in a weekly crontjob certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer>
I passed comma-seprated domains to certbot -d ..
<freemint>
in my understanding let's encrypt needs to controll over some content that te server delivers for verification
<Regenaxer>
It vertifies to Let's Encrypt via port 80 initially
<freemint>
maybe i need to brush up on my let's encrypt. Does your names file contain ay changes to support let's encrypt
<Regenaxer>
No, the httpGate names deal only with starting local applications
<freemint>
Or does the certbot place files in you server root folders
<Regenaxer>
Yes, it places certificates for these domains
<Regenaxer>
Files like /etc/letsencrypt/live/7fach.de/privkey.pem
<Regenaxer>
On some servers I copy them locally in cron, on some I have a symbolic link
<Regenaxer>
Then something like bin/httpGate 443 xxx/names pem/xxx.key,pem/xxx.crt
<freemint>
I get that part.
<Regenaxer>
yeah, it is also on httpGate.html
<Regenaxer>
The certs expire after 6 weeks or so, that's why the cronjob is needed to renew
<freemint>
I roughly recall it requiring to "place files in a server's webroot folder for authentication" but it seems there is another way from what you say
<Regenaxer>
Yeah, certbot takes care of that
<Regenaxer>
It negotiates everything over port 80
<Regenaxer>
i.e. it establishes a temporary on 80 and waits for a back-connect
<beneroth>
freemint, as I understand Regenaxer, httpGate runs only on port 443 (HTTPS), and certbot runs on port 80 (HTTP)
<freemint>
How does certbot do that? Does certbot write in to your webroot temporatily
<Regenaxer>
(at least that's how I understand it)
<beneroth>
certbot is the webserver in this setup
<Regenaxer>
No
<beneroth>
no?
<Regenaxer>
What is webroot?
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, right
<Regenaxer>
It listens on 80 just for setup
<beneroth>
the root folder of files served from the webserver, in "traditional" webservers
<Regenaxer>
If the remote let's encry. succeeds, it knows that "you are in control of that server"
<freemint>
the root folder of your webserver, as in the place you pass httpgate to start pcilisp in
<beneroth>
usually the hole folder is served, classic blacklisting fallacy (you should not base security on blacklisting, only on whitelisting)
<Regenaxer>
PicoLisp uses no root folder
<beneroth>
freemint, does not exist :D
<beneroth>
httpGate is just proxy
<Regenaxer>
So certbot writes in the above /etc/...
<beneroth>
also httpGate does only run 443 in this setup, so port 80 is free to be used by certbot
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, freemint asks about the validation file, not the certificate
<beneroth>
the server control proof file served via HTTP
<Regenaxer>
The cronjob kills httpGate, renews the cert, then starts httpGate again
<beneroth>
ah
<freemint>
ahh
<beneroth>
ok, so httpGate runs on both 80 and 443?
<Regenaxer>
Yes, here it does
<Regenaxer>
Not needed
<beneroth>
and ideally the certbot runs on 443 after first validation?
<Regenaxer>
After that it does not run
<Regenaxer>
certbot runs only to create and renew
<beneroth>
I mean: on the crontabbed rte-validation
<beneroth>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
once a week
<beneroth>
my question: LE validation is done via HTTP or HTTPS (both are possible, afaik) ?
<freemint>
Regenaxer, ok, my understand was that httpGate kept running and then httpGate would need to hand of som things to certbot and i was not sure if that could be expressed with the names file
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, I don't remember well. For some reason it wants 80
<freemint>
That's where my question came from
<Regenaxer>
perhapsh 443 too
<Regenaxer>
freemint: "httpGate kept running"
<Regenaxer>
I stop httpGate only in this cronjob
<freemint>
Yes
<Regenaxer>
01 4 * * 7 /home/app/7fach/certbot
<Regenaxer>
a 'root' cronjob
<Regenaxer>
So in my understanding certbot runs only once a week
<Regenaxer>
for renewal
<Regenaxer>
It just calls certbot renew --standalone
<Regenaxer>
pem/7fach.key etc. are symbolic links to /etc/letsencr..
<freemint>
I get it
<freemint>
Here is where i went wrong: Certbot verifes your domain by demonstrating that you have control over the content of a certain folder url.tld/some_folder_i_can't_remeber/. i wanted to know how to wire httpGate to hand off the request to that folder to certbot (this is how you do it in nginx) to a certbot running on another port internally.
<Regenaxer>
yep, that sounds like what it does
<freemint>
This is not neccessary whe you shut down the webserver for a moment.
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
I kill only top level httpGate
<beneroth>
okay, so you initial question was meant to be: how to configure httpGate to proxy to another webserver?
<Regenaxer>
running connections persist
<Regenaxer>
only new connects are blocked for a moment
<beneroth>
ah, you have a global httpGate instance per server, and then one per application?
<Regenaxer>
no, only one on 80 and one on 443
<beneroth>
so freemint proxy configuration should be the same as how the local httpGates are configured in the top one, I guess
<Regenaxer>
but httpGate forks
<beneroth>
are the forks detached?
<Regenaxer>
they are independent
<Regenaxer>
don't need the parent as pil apps do
<freemint>
beneroth, yes that was roughly my question
<Regenaxer>
for each connection two children are forked
<Regenaxer>
for both directions
<Regenaxer>
You can safely kill the top level processes
<Regenaxer>
the ones listening on 80 and 443
* beneroth
just found a way to reliably crash Visual Studio while debugging a C# web application...
<Regenaxer>
oh :)
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, interesting :)
<beneroth>
new year goal: no more C# web applications ;-)
<beneroth>
cost of lifetime is too high
<Regenaxer>
Good!
<Regenaxer>
So /usr/bin/pkill -P1 httpGate kills only the parent process(es)
<Regenaxer>
i.e. children of 1 which is the init process
<beneroth>
nice one
<beneroth>
afk
<Regenaxer>
cu
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