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<rntz>
is there a way to print something without knowing its type?
<rntz>
I have a functorized structure, and I want to debug it, but of course I don't know the type it's operating over. I could make it take a stringifier for that type, but I'd just have to remove that code later
<zozozo>
rntz: just require that the functor argument provides a print function of type : Format.formatter -> t -> unit or something like that
<zozozo>
which is always nice to have
<flux>
rntz, there is a way to do that approximately with a 'dump' function.
<flux>
found ie. in Batteries
<flux>
dump is only useful for debugging at most
<companion_cube>
erg
<flux>
dump is able to see through abstract types, so that might be helpful
<Drup>
flux: except for complex structures, it's not very helpful, better to add a pp function in the functor
<flux>
but it might not always be nice to require client to provide a pp
<flux>
let's say you're implementing a data structure such as Hashtbl
<flux>
are you going to require pp from the type to do a quick debugging output from somewhere inside it :)
<zozozo>
flux: you can always do something like let printf= print_string "<abstract" if you really don't want to print the structure
<Drup>
flux: I would argue it's good to require pp, because you always need to print the hashtbl at some point ..
<flux>
"always" is such a stretch :)
<companion_cube>
I disagree with drup, it's really annoying to require a printer in a functor
<companion_cube>
keep the interfaces minimum, please
<rntz>
hm, dump is not in the standard library :/
<edwin>
some libraries provide conversion to sexp (with similar problems, now you depend on sexplib even if you don't use it otherwise)
<rntz>
I am not interested in any solution that involves anything outside the standard library
<edwin>
I tend to prefer pp over sexp
<rntz>
this tiny 100 line exploratory file, I don't want to mess with library stuff, I just want to debug :P
<rntz>
*this is a, rather
<companion_cube>
rntz: in the functor, you can write a print function that requires a key printing function
<rntz>
yeah, I guess that's what I'll do
<companion_cube>
module Make(X : Foo) : sig type t = ...... val print : (formatter -> Foo.t -> unit) -> formatter -> t -> unit end
<flux>
I wonder how difficult would it be to extend ocaml to have optional fields in type signatures :) (ie. don't fill in this optional field and you either get a default functionality or you don't get a 'pp' function in the resulting type signature)
<companion_cube>
no idea
<companion_cube>
otoh you can extend a functor with another functor
<companion_cube>
for instance I have stuff that take a Map.S and return additional functions
<companion_cube>
(main issue is that private types remain opaque)
<flux>
but can you provide a nice "DefaultAbstractPrinter" to use when the user doesn't care?
<flux>
actually, teh perfect solution
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<companion_cube>
I don't think yo ucan
<flux>
return a module, that has a functor that makes the same module but with a pretty printer
<companion_cube>
but in the functor you could ask val print : (formatter -> t -> unit) option
<flux>
sadly this can only work realistically for 'one level' of extension.. or can it?!
<companion_cube>
rather than making the subfunctor return the same module, just have it return a small module with additional facilities, imho
<flux>
well, yes.. :)
<companion_cube>
module type Map.S = sig type t ...... module Print(Ppkey : key printer) : sig val print : 'a printer -> 'a t printer end ... end
<companion_cube>
something like this
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<flux>
module HashtblWithPp = struct include Hashtbl.Make(Type) include MakePP(Type) end ?
<flux>
except I guess include for functor doesn't work.. ?
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<companion_cube>
it works
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<companion_cube>
but you still don't have access to the internals
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: Hello! Regarding the Lwt_pipe kind-of-ownership thing I'm not sure. That, to/of_stream and a Lwt_stream-like "from" all come with rather ugly possiblities
<companion_cube>
it's not trivial
<hcarty>
companion_cube: The simple case for each is simple and useful... and easy to abuse with rust-like ownership rules
<companion_cube>
but if you don't have resource handling you can't decently `map` on a file-based pipe, say
<hcarty>
Agreed
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<hcarty>
s/abuse with/absuse without/
<hcarty>
I think they should be there. It might be useful to have un-closable pipes. That increases the overall complexity more though.
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<hcarty>
Lwt_pipe.from could be made to act like connect with an ownership argument allowing users to supply a "close" function if they want to
<companion_cube>
yeah, as in Lwt_pipe.make
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<companion_cube>
.create
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: Something seems to be not right: let p = Lwt_pipe.of_list [1; 2; 3] in Lwt_pipe.close p (* raises Lwt_pipe.Closed *)
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: And if you try to "Lwt_pipe.read p" after that you get 'Exception: Invalid_argument "Lwt.wakeup_result"'
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: But if you "Lwt_pipe.read p" more times after that you get the expected "None" returned
<companion_cube>
hu
<companion_cube>
interesting
<hcarty>
I was running into this with of_stream and from and was assuming it came from those implementations but it doesn't. I think it's because the keep call in of_list closes the pipe.
<hcarty>
I'm not sure if the Invalid_argument exception is caused by the same thing or something else
<companion_cube>
close should be idempotent anyway
<Leonidas>
close harder
<companion_cube>
hmmmmmmmm
<companion_cube>
oh interesting, close blocks when is_closed = true
<companion_cube>
oh well, this needs fixing
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: This is what I currently have for of_stream: http://vpaste.net/pqVyA It seems like overkill but I'm not sure how to make it simpler with missing cases. And I'm still not sure I've caught everything that should be caught.
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<Simn>
I'm trying to use opam through cygwin and opam init is telling me "No OCaml compiler found in path.". I can run ocaml/ocamlopt just fine though, so I wonder why it would say this. I installed everything using http://protz.github.io/ocaml-installer/.
<hcarty>
The ability to close a Lwt_pipe.t at any time by anyone makes for some tough corner cases
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<companion_cube>
hcarty: no, create should deal with the idempotence of `close` by itself
<companion_cube>
of_stream should not be that complicated
<companion_cube>
(otoh the `pick` is probably justified)
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<flux>
\o/ everything breaks \o/ :)
<Leonidas>
quick, quick, someone update the topic
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: No, what exists is enough to solve an immediate problem I was having. I'm hoping to have time later this week to look at it more
<companion_cube>
ok, cool
<companion_cube>
I'll try and work on the close issue
<hcarty>
flux: Only if you use ppx... or oasis... or something that uses one of those!
<companion_cube>
oh, the oasis issue is still not solved? :/
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<Drup>
I doubt it
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<Leonidas>
which oasis issue?
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<companion_cube>
a flag that blocks it on ocaml 4.03, currently
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<hcarty>
Drup: Does Lwt 2.5.2 work on 4.03.0?
<Drup>
yes, that's the point
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<hcarty>
Is it safe to 'opam switch install 4.03.0 --no-switch' and continue using the current switch while the new switch is building?
<Drup>
yes
<hcarty>
Drup: Thanks
<companion_cube>
oh, that's nice
<flux>
my opam doesn't know about 4.03.0?-(
<hcarty>
flux: "opam update" and there may be some delay between the commit hitting github and it being mirrored into the main/official off-github package list
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<hcarty>
flux: If you want to avoid the delay you can add opam-repository directly as a remote
<flux>
hcarty, ok, got it, while ! opam update && opam switch .. ; do :; done
<flux>
well I guess I can wait.
<flux>
soooo, when is the alpha release of ocaml multicore.. ?-)
<hcarty>
:-)
<Drup>
hcarty: side note: it's not an abolutely great idea in general, at least not if you keep both repositories
<hcarty>
Drup: Potential subtle version conflicts?
<Drup>
yes
<Drup>
opam is not designed to handle well when two packages have the same (name, version) couple
<hcarty>
Thanks
<hcarty>
What does the "with frame pointers enabled" switch add/change?
<dsheets>
hmm? they shadow in the remote stack
<dsheets>
but, i agree, one copy of a remote in the stack is best
<Drup>
hcarty: it's useful for profiling with perf (it will give call stacks)
<hcarty>
Never mind... RWO has a section on the +fp compiler switches
<hcarty>
Drup: Thanks :-) Just read about it
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<theblatte>
# Warning 31: files array.cmo and /home/jul/.opam/4.03.0/lib/ocaml/stdlib.cma(Array) both define a module named Array
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<theblatte>
camlidl is sad with 4.03.0 :(
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<Drup>
fuu
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<Drup>
opam compiler-conf doesn't work with opam 2.0 T_T
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<rgrinberg>
let's all recall the 2 talking points that will dominate the dicussion
<rgrinberg>
1. multicore
<rgrinberg>
2. adhoc polymorphism
<companion_cube>
oh god.
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<Algebr>
windows support
<Algebr>
same cannards over and over
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<adrien>
the thing with windows support is that people know they need to complain about it but they don't know why
<adrien>
it doesn't lead to a very interesting troll
<rgrinberg>
i get the sense that it's mostly idle observers complaining about something they'll never use.
<rgrinberg>
where are all of these suffering ocaml prorammers on windows I sometimes wonder
<companion_cube>
I wonder how python got popular, it doesn't even multicore
<adrien>
but it's not its main performance issue :D
<companion_cube>
:DD
<companion_cube>
also, I heard it doesn't windows either!
<adrien>
there's an MSVC port
<adrien>
not an official nor clean mingw* one
<rgrinberg>
node's shitty windows support didn't seem to matter on HN in the early days
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<Anarchos>
hi again
<companion_cube>
come on, now there is CCstring.pad, we can compete with node
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<hcarty>
companion_cube: Why compete? We JS.
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<Algebr>
its a legimate concern, i think we ought to address it and it is being addressed
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<hcarty>
rgrinberg: I had to write some code for Windows and wanted to write it in OCaml. So it's by choice, but I am/was a suffering OCaml programmer targeting Windows
<hcarty>
rgrinberg: MXE + whitequarks opam-cross-windows repo made the whole process much nicer since I could avoid Windows for the most part
<hcarty>
Algebr: Fair - perception matters when trying to grow a community
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<Algebr>
yep, for better or worse, perception matters a lot.
<rgrinberg>
hcarty: it's a legitimate concern. when it's brought up like this - in the context of a real use case.
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<hcarty>
rgrinberg: I completely agree, just to be clear. I avoid HN most of the time for that reason. And try to tread lightly when looking through proggit
<Drup>
I find proggit rather worse than HN on the matter
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<Algebr>
a nice PR coup for OCaml would be if the website itself was rebuilt using jsoo bindings to reactJS
<Algebr>
massive free marketing
<rgrinberg>
but it's a static site... It's build 100% correctly for what it is.
<Algebr>
so make it not a static site, make the interpreter right on the front page, show off bindings to d3
<Algebr>
peopel like flashy cool things
<Drup>
please no :(
<Algebr>
y
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<hcarty>
Drup: Put the ocsigen shared drawing application on the front page :-)
<Drup>
Eh.
<Drup>
It will not satisfy Algebr's hypeness measure, though
<rgrinberg>
all you arm chair marketers should consider a career at phillip morris :P
<Algebr>
Drup: getting more people excited and interested in OCaml only benefits all of us
<Algebr>
what's the downside?
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<Drup>
fancier ≠ better
<Drup>
having a simple, accessible, static website for ocaml.org is good
<Drup>
(even if the current could be made much better, but it's a work on the content, not the fancyness)
<Algebr>
the site is a little boring...
<edwin>
whats proggit?
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<Drup>
edwin: r/programming
<companion_cube>
yeah, ocaml.org is fine
<Algebr>
=/
<companion_cube>
Algebr: you can still make a demo site if you want :D
<hcarty>
It depends on what a person is coming to the site to see
<companion_cube>
or some d3.js interface to coq-in-the-browser (??)
<Algebr>
I do, and I'm trying to sell OCaml to as many people as I can
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<Algebr>
and people say, if this language is so awesome, then why isn't it used that much
<Algebr>
What's the answer to that
<Drup>
that change list is so long :O
<companion_cube>
yeah
<companion_cube>
impressive
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<hcarty>
Algebr: It's a valid question. Honestly I think it's usually momentum and a lack of a big, "must-have" project to draw people in
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<companion_cube>
c'mon, no one posted the release on HN ? :p
<rgrinberg>
I would if I had an HN account. Anyone care to share the karma and make the submission?
<companion_cube>
:D
<rgrinberg>
it's for the greater good
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<Drup>
If that's not done by tomorrow midday, I'll sacrifice myself
<Drup>
this hour is terribly bad for submitting stuff.