adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml MOOC http://1149.fr/ocaml-mooc | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<Philippa> 'lo. Does ocaml have an equivalent of haskell's newtype or is that something to pull off via the module system instead?
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<aantron> equivalent in what sense? you can do type foo = Foo of bar
<Philippa> yeah. Is it also performance-equivalent?
<Philippa> in Haskell, newtypes don't cost anything at runtime
<aantron> true, and no
<aantron> you would need the module system and abstract or private types for that, yes
<aantron> at least, if they become performance-equivalent, it is an optimization i have not yet heard of
<Philippa> *nod* fair, and thanks
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<def`> aantron: they won't until float array are removed
<def`> that is very likely to happen after, but the former is less sure
<aantron> def`: curious, can you elaborate?
<aantron> i know about the special treatment of float arrays, but im interested in how this is related
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<malc_> hmmm.. ocaml is lgpl now, was it ever discussed somewhere?
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<def`> aantron: asap, but I am busy right now
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<malc_> hola nojb
<malc_> tag, bonjour etc..
<nojb> How do I convince opam to install a package without checking its dependencies ?
<nojb> hi
<malc_> nojb: no cabal hell you say.. right
<Drup> nojb: "opam pin add -e <foo>.<version>
<Drup> then modify the opam file however you want
<Drup> malc_: you're a very optimistic person, aren't you ? :D
<nojb> Drup: does this require to pin <foo> first ?
<malc_> Drup: must confess - was called Eeyore a few times
<Drup> nojb: yes
<Drup> you can't just ignore dependencies
<Drup> so your only solution is to pin something, edit the opam file and remove the dependencies
<Drup> and, more preferably, fix the upstream package ...
<malc_> therein lies patch to madness
<Drup> malc_: I fail to see how, we can still remove packages ~~
<nojb> Thanks Drup, this works fine
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<malc_> Drup: sorry, it's just that anything thar requires this kind of voodoo is a no go for me
<Drup> malc_: it doesn't
<Drup> I have no idea what nojb is doing, but I never had to do that. Sometimes you report bug about the constraints upstream, that's normal, it happens, but I never had to ignore dependencies
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<Drup> Actually, do you even use opam ? :)
<malc_> nope
<nojb> Drup: trying to install a package with dependencies which are available in the system, just not within opam
<Drup> malc_: So you have no idea how good it is. ;)
<malc_> Drup: i have pretty good idea how BAD it is
<malc_> i'm not usin_G_ it
<malc_> i've given it a try
<malc_> and figured it's not for me
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<malc_> nojb: osx is hell on earth, i've succeeded in building stuff using your recipe, but running it (even with XQuartz) is beyond my abilities (even hough i've obviously succeeded in that in the past (brew method))
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<nojb> malc_: yes, there is still some way to go :)
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<nojb> malc_: I am confident things can be improved
<nojb> malc_: we just need to have some patience :)
<malc_> nojb: i'm not sure that opam is the way to improve things :)
<malc_> heh, yeah
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<orbifx> I wasn't to download a package to edit it before installing it with opam.
<orbifx> I'm using `opam add ..`
<orbifx> but it doesn't actually download the files
<orbifx> Any suggestions?
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<edwin> opam source can be used to download it
<orbifx> thanks edwin
<orbifx> does anyone know if sexplib.syntax has been deprecated or if not, how it's installed?
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<Kakadu> orbifx: Did you succeed yesterday?
<Drup> orbifx: there is mail about that on the caml list
<orbifx> Drup: which list? users? devs?
<orbifx> Kakadu: no, I sourced the package now and experimenting with changing the build parameters
<orbifx> my issue is sexplib.syntax
<Drup> orbifx: "the caml list"
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<Kakadu> any logs?
<Kakadu> orbifx: ^
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<orbifx> Kakadu: one sec, I think there is something here. I'll past logs if I'm stuck. Look at Drup's message
<Kakadu> Does anybody know why core_kernel requires camlp4?
<Kakadu> Yeah, this messages could be related
<orbifx> Kakadu: the log is basically:
<orbifx> # ocamlfind: Package `sexplib.syntax' not found
<orbifx> # W: Field 'pkg_sexplib_syntax' is not set: Command ''/home/sp/.opam/system/bin/ocamlfind' query -format %d sexplib.syntax > '/tmp/oasis-eeea67.txt'' terminated with error code 2
<orbifx> # E: Cannot find findlib package sexplib.syntax
<orbifx> y
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<orbifx> and based on the message Drup referenced, I think the opam & tags files need changing.
<Kakadu> orbifx: While installing what?
<orbifx> lablqt
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<orbifx> from the dev repo Kakadu
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<Kakadu> it seems that it is output of ./configure
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<Kakadu> can you paste output of opam install lablqt.9999 -v?
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<Kakadu> ah, maybe it is not needed
<orbifx> ok let me know
<Kakadu> Do we already have sexplib based on ppx somewhere?
<Kakadu> maybe to get rid of camp4 is good idea
<Kakadu> camlp4*
<orbifx> did you see the mailing list message about the rename firstly?
<Kakadu> :)
<Kakadu> To see and to read are different verbs :)
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<orbifx> :P
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<orbifx> Kakadu: I'm just familiarising my self with the extensions system... so I personally don't know. Did you find any solutions?
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<orbifx> Is it not a case of replacing sexplig.syntax with pa_sexp_conv, Kakadu ?
<octachron> orbifx, sexplib.syntax became pa_sexp_conv which is the camlp4 version of ppx_sexp_conv
<orbifx> octachron: Ok, but this is mostly relevant to Kakadu, as I can't patch this at this point.
<orbifx> I'm learning OCaml at this stage, extending it can come later :P
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<orbifx> octachron: is there a tutorial on the tools involved in particular ppx, since from what I read, it seems to be the future
<orbifx> ?
<octachron> for writing ppx extension? whitequark's blog post (http://whitequark.org/blog/2014/04/16/a-guide-to-extension-points-in-ocaml/) is quite good
<orbifx> thanks
<octachron> camlp4 is far more complex and documentation has always been a problem
<orbifx> yeah. that is a good article for me needs.
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* orbifx argees with the ppx rationale
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<orbifx> Kakadu: any news?
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<Kakadu> No, I didn't even started
<Kakadu> Some stuff is happending around
<orbifx> ok
<orbifx> Any estimates? I can work with a simple controller class until then.
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<companion_cube> hey Format unbelievers, look at what pretty printing can do: http://vrac.cedeela.fr/foo.png ;-)
<Kakadu> orbifx: it might happen this evening
<Drup> companion_cube: it suffers a lot from over-parens
<companion_cube> yes, slightly
<companion_cube> I need some precedence level
<Drup> I think you should remove the ` too
<companion_cube> no, it helps delimiting where the terms are
<Drup> You could use another convention (the term is always after the foo:\n)
<companion_cube> meh, I have many kinds of debug messages and there's not always a newline
<companion_cube> anyway, colors are ✔
<Drup> Not enough colors :p
<companion_cube> yes, I've only started
<companion_cube> but tags are nice for that
<Drup> You could also use colors instead of `
<orbifx> companion_cube: I think you are missing some font file :P
<companion_cube> really? maybe it's fira which doesn't have enough chars
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* orbifx is making a joke on how that screenshot has only symbols (as is the correct font file wasn't loaded)
<Drup> companion_cube: Also, put the /2 next to idents in another color, like gray, so you can glance past it when reading the formula.
<Drup> It's a useful trick to keep numbers on ident but still make them decently readable
<Drup> (When I did something like that, I was using the numbers like ₁₂... for that)
<Drup> (It was nice too)
<companion_cube> heh
<companion_cube> I could do that indeed
<companion_cube> niiice indeed
<companion_cube> (I only had to change 1 printer ♥)
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<Drup> :)
<companion_cube> otoh I'll have to disable colors to pipe into files now
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<Drup> Or you auto-detect terminal capabilities
<companion_cube> annoying...
<Drup> not that much
<Drup> (and you can do it inside CCFormat)
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<companion_cube> I'll provide both and only use colors in debug
<companion_cube> but thanks for the idea
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<orbifx> how can I add a let statement in a function when it's written like: let xyz = function | .. -> .. | .. -> ... ?
<aantron> if you want to add it before function, you have to turn it into a match expression
<aantron> let expression*
<aantron> instead of statement
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<orbifx> yes sorry
<orbifx> too long in the imperative camp :P
<ggole> Either add an argument and match after the let, or write the function ... after the let
<ggole> eg, let f x = let y = x + 1 in function ... or let f x a = let y = x + 1 in match a with ...
<orbifx> do these different approaches have any conceptual significance?
<ggole> Not really. Adding an argument may result in more efficient code.
<orbifx> how so?
<ggole> Calling a function with the "expected" number of arguments avoids closure construction
<ggole> If you have let f x = let ... in function ..., the expected number of arguments (from the compilers perspective) may differ from the programmer's expectations
<orbifx> i see
<orbifx> thanks ggole and aantron
<ggole> This is a little flaky because ML functions are technically all unary
<orbifx> ok
<orbifx> something else I noticed
<orbifx> and want to confirm it
<orbifx> If i have a mutable value and bind it with let (i.e. let x = some_mutable ) will x be "fixed" to value of the mutable at the time, or does it bind to the refence?
<orbifx> cause given what I just noticed it seems to bind to the value at the time.
<aantron> what is a mutable value? a reference?
<aantron> or the value of a mutable record field?
<aantron> the answer depends on that question, and asking it should also tell you what x binds to
<ggole> Bindings are always immutable
<ggole> But they can refer to ("point to", if you like) mutable things
<ggole> So x is always fixed to point to a particular mutable thing
<orbifx> Yes, they are immutable, but do they bind to the value or the refence when the binding involves a mutable value?
<aantron> orbifx: ocaml doesnt have "mutable variables"
<aantron> thats why you are asked to say what is going on
<orbifx> aantron: should i be saying mutable references?
<aantron> sorry mutable values
<aantron> no, can you give the scenario you are asking about?
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<aantron> if you bind x to a reference, it is that reference. if you alter !r, !x will be altered
<ggole> I'm not sure what you mean by the "value or the reference"
<ggole> OCaml values are pretty well defined. If you have let x = <expression>, x will be bound to the value produced by the expression.
<ggole> That value might be a reference cell, or another mutable object.
<orbifx> I have a type field which holds an object. If I call the let binding before the instatiation the code crashes. If I put the let binding to that object inside the function and it get called later, it's fine.
<orbifx> Which led me to believe that the binding is binding to the value of the mutable at the point, rather then a mutable itself.
<aantron> orbifx: there are no "mutables" in OCaml
<aantron> there are 1. references, 2. mutable record fields (in fact 1 is a record with a 2), 3. a few data structures with mutable semantics
<aantron> is this "type field" a mutable field of a record that you update after binding its value in a let-expression?
<ggole> let bindings have no special rule for mutable things
<orbifx> aantron: yes it is.
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<aantron> ok, then the answer is the variable in the let-expression is bound to the value that was in the field at the time the let-expression is evaluated
<orbifx> hurray :P we got there :P
<aantron> if you then update the record field, it affects the record, not the value that was seen in the past
<orbifx> i figured this out but wanted a confirmation.
<aantron> if you had bound a variable in a let-expression to the *record* itself, you could access the updated value through that bound variable
<orbifx> is that by adding a ! ?
<orbifx> prepending, even... ?
<orbifx> let x = !record.field; ?
<ggole> You use ! when you want to get the contents of a ref cell
<aantron> no, if you have "let record = {mutable n : int}"
<aantron> i mean
<ggole> And not otherwise
<aantron> damn thats messed up what i just wrote
<aantron> its a chimera between a type definition and a value. but lets just proceed because you can figure it out :)
<aantron> you would write let x = record, then x.n to access the mutable field
<aantron> and as ggole said
<aantron> if your record happens to be a reference, !r is a shorthand for r.contents
<ggole> orbifx: ! is not special syntax or anything like that. It's just a function from reference cells to their conents.
<aantron> the point is that it is the record that gets mutated, not the value in the record
<malc_> # let (!) r = r.contents;;
<malc_> val ( ! ) : 'a ref -> 'a = <fun>
<malc_> # !(ref 10);;
<malc_> - : int = 10
<malc_> or let (!) {contents} = contents;;
<orbifx> cool
<orbifx> will take a time to memorise these
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<Kakadu> So
<Kakadu> do we really don't sexplib based on PPX yet?
<Kakadu> s/don't/haven't/
<malc_> do we really haven't = ?
<malc_> hmm
<Kakadu> ppx-based sexplib
<companion_cube> I think sexplib now uses ppx
<Kakadu> ah
<Kakadu> ppx_sexp_conv + sexplib
<Kakadu> and pa_sexp_conv + sexplib is an old sexplib
<Kakadu> where old sexplib have proveded sexplib.syntax ocamlfind package
<Kakadu> okay
<orbifx> :D
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<orbifx> laters
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<jozefg> Hey quick question: does anyone know if there's anything special to be done to make Merlin use the ppx transformations provided by sexplib?
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<companion_cube> just require the appropriate package in .merlin
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<jozefg> companion_cube: Huh okay, so I should be fine with something like PKG core
<jozefg> PKG sexplib
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<jozefg> I seem to have made a mistake then..
<infinity0> i have "PKG sexplib.syntax" myself
<companion_cube> I don't know, but for me PKG ppx_deriving.std does the trick
<companion_cube> (for instance)
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<jozefg> companion_cube: interestingly adding that particular line actually causes it do something.. Thanks :)
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<infinity0> is there something in merlin/tuareg that lets me rename a variable and it'll automatically rename that in all relevant scopes (including other files, maybe?)
<Algebr> that would be a neat feature.
<Drup> for your local file, merlin-iedit
<infinity0> ah thanks i'll have a look
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<infinity0> Drup: sorry i don't understand your reference, you mean i have to write (merlin-iedit) myself?
<infinity0> i see this https://github.com/the-lambda-church/merlin/issues/156 but not sure how to make any use of it myself
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<Drup> As in the logs: put that in your .emacs https://bpaste.net/show/3dcdcdce55cb
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<infinity0> oh got it thanks, i was confused where merlin-iedit was supposed to come from but it's already part of merlin
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<infinity0> nice, works quite well
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<infinity0> i used this snippet instead so it only loads when you need it: https://bpaste.net/show/16e345bd911f
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<icicled> is there a way to enable tests by default with oasis?
<icicled> I tried overriding the "tests" flag but no luck - it errors out
<companion_cube> good question, I just tend to --enable-test
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<icicled> I can't find it in the docs or in the packaged examples
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<companion_cube> oh it's in the configure file
<companion_cube> Plugins: META (0.3), DevFiles (0.3)
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<companion_cube> I use this, it generates a makefile and configure files
<icicled> yes, I realize I can do that after I have invoked `oasis setup`
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<icicled> it looks like there is a flag that gets set in setup.data
<icicled> I wonder how to override that in the _oasis file
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