ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.1 announcement at http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
<Drup> rgrinberg: I'm not certain to see what alcotest brings compared to ounit
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<rgrinberg> Drup: yeah you need a magnifying to notice the improvements
<rgrinberg> it's kinda like what ezjsonm is to jsonm
<Drup> well, I will just trust you and the pretty colors then.
<Drup> (not enough cute utf8 though)
<rgrinberg> i mean it depends on ounit so it can't be much of an "alternative"
<rgrinberg> nicer?
<Drup> Well, isn't it how OUnit tests are structured ?
<Drup> (I never used ounit)
<rgrinberg> ounit is similar but a little uglier
<Drup> that is remarkably precise and a great selling line.
<rgrinberg> also ounit isn't on github which is irksome to me :/
<Drup> yeah, I really don't care about that
<rgrinberg> Drup: if alcotest isn't to your liking i'm sure there will be something available in the owebl suite soon enough
<Drup> rgrinberg: I'm just asking why alcotest instead of ounit :p
<rgrinberg> Drup: i have a very luke warm preference to alcotest so i can't sell it well unfortunately
<rgrinberg> :D
<rgrinberg> i honestly just want to use ppx_test when i can finally dump p4 forever
<Drup> rgrinberg: I'm not interested in random testing
<rgrinberg> random testing?
<rgrinberg> what does ppx_test have to do with that
<Drup> hum, isn't it related to quicktest ?
<rgrinberg> Drup: no...
<Drup> maybe I'm mixing up all my testing libs =')
<rgrinberg> this is kinda like qtest (if you remember it from batteries)
<rgrinberg> except your syntax highlighting is saved :P
<rgrinberg> (that's what i hate about qtest, your editor doesn't know the tests are code)
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<Drup> rgrinberg: I'm still wondering why in hell TEST in capitalized in this ppx
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<Drup> there are so many things wrong with this ppx :/
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<rgrinberg> Drup: i think it's because it's a port of pa_ounit to ppx
<rgrinberg> and pa_ounit did TEST
<rgrinberg> Drup: what do you find wrong with it?
<Drup> "repeating shitty choice while not preserving compat" is probably one of the worst argument to justify something.
<def`> shitty choice is subjective
<rgrinberg> it's easy to grep :P
<Drup> rgrinberg: the hack for "TEST module", the various syntax choices in the two sub libraries (at least two of them are useless), the various hacks on the "if the test's name has a specific form, we do this specific thing"
<Drup> "If a name is not anonymous and ends with _, it is considered a test of type unit." wat :|
<def`> Ok, that's ugly.
<Drup> def`: let %TEST name = let module M = struct .. end in ()" instead of "TEST modules = struct ... end"
<def`> ocaml attributes are somewhat reserved to weird places
<def`> although a structure attribute before a test would have done it
<def`> [%TEST]
<def`> module M = struct bla end
<Drup> or just making a feature request.
<def`> [@@@TEST] sorry
<def`> Ok, that's ugly =)
<def`> Yep.
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<def`> nullcat: I saw you were wondering about facebook limits yesterday
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<nullcat> yeah
<nullcat> i interpret wrong, i guess
<def`> I used some API 2 years ago, limit was 600requests/600seconds, per token, per ip
<nullcat> ok
<nullcat> that's better
<nullcat> so, facebook: 60 req/minute, twitter: 1 req/minute
<nullcat> avg
<def`> that was enough for reasonably intensive tasks
<nullcat> u mean 1req/min?
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<def`> (given that a query can return a quite big dataset)
<def`> 60/min
<nullcat> yeah
<nullcat> twitter is ridiculous...
<def`> (for the 600 seconds, it's just that the throttling is done on a 10 minutes basis, so that you can burst but not for a long time)
<nullcat> yeah
<def`> If you're a professional, you can likely get special offers ;)
<Drup> I was the one wondering :p
<def`> Well it's the case with facebook. I doubt twitter would miss such opportunity
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<nullcat> not for twitter, i checked
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<def`> Ahah
<def`> "Research institutions" :P
<def`> I was thinking more along the lines of ad providers ;-)
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<rgrinberg> Drup: so what about making ocamlbuild its own project?
<rgrinberg> was there a verdict on that
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<Drup> apparently not
<rgrinberg> can you give gasche a nudge?
<Drup> and give me the idea that I want to be the future maintainer of ocamlbuild ? No, thanks.
<Drup> heh
<Drup> s/me/him/
<rgrinberg> hmm it seems like there's enough people interested on gh to maintain it though
<Drup> then nudge them
<rgrinberg> jpdeplaix, whitequark, hhugo, you
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<Drup> I have one legacy software to work on, that's far enough for me, I don't want another
<rgrinberg> buenzli too perhaps
<Drup> I doubt that
<Drup> he can't work on something not written by him
<rgrinberg> he can still give "helpful" hints
<Drup> but that's not what is needed for ocamlbuild
<rgrinberg> anyway out of those 5 candidates a couple will pull through
<jpdeplaix> mmh yeah
<Drup> jpdeplaix is busy studying, hhugo is now at jst, I'm not interested and I think whitequark is a tiny bit sick of interacting with the core team (and he doesn't do ocaml consulting anymore, afaik)
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<rgrinberg> Drup: that's the whole point he won't need to interact with the core team anymore
<rgrinberg> the core team doesn't touch ocamlbuild i thought
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<Drup> (and anyway, assemblage will just generate a big shitty makefile that nobody care about and I'll be just fine)
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<Drup> (I just don't want to touch ocamlbuild's internals or ocamlbuild's APIs)
<rgrinberg> i doubt ocamlbuild will die
<jpdeplaix> well, the main point tho to put it out of the core package is that bugs and PRs can be fixed/accepted far more quickly
<rgrinberg> yes! i'm sick of waiting for ocaml releases :/
<Drup> rgrinberg: why do you ask me ? ask the coreteam :)
<rgrinberg> :/
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<rgrinberg> they seem to agree to it on principle https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/65
<rgrinberg> but i think they forget that ocamlbuild exists sometimes
<Drup> well, ping again.
<rgrinberg> Drup: next time the elders convene you can crash it and politely remind them :D
<Drup> I'm not invited :p
<rgrinberg> > crash
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<rgrinberg> like a wedding :P
<Drup> and it's at the inria center, which is fucking far away
<Drup> at least it was the last time
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<rgrinberg> jpdeplaix: what's this oasis_support voodoo in the jsoo ocamlbuild plugin?
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<jpdeplaix> rgrinberg: it just takes your .byte executables and replace them in the targets by a .js
<rgrinberg> jpdeplaix: why is for oasis though
<jpdeplaix> because it's quite useful for OASIS
<jpdeplaix> I don't know xD
<jpdeplaix> well I used it for OASIS tho
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<jpdeplaix> but yeah definitively, it can be used for other build systems
<jpdeplaix> well s/build-systems/wrappers, …/
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<paarth> so I don't know if I messed up my module deps or something but I've got an interesting error message "This expression has type t but an expression was expected of type <module>.t" They're the same type, one's abstract
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<kido1412> What't the type of OCaml's type system? Does it belong to System F2< ?
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<dtscode> val ratio : int -> int -> float = <fun>
<dtscode> Are the return values always the last -> thingy?
<adrien> yes
<dtscode> Thanks
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<dtscode> So this would be read as ratio takes types int, int and returns a float and is of type fun(ction)
<adrien> yes, you can read it that way
<dtscode> What would be another way to read it?
<adrien> also, if you apply only the first argument, you will have a function int -> float as return
<dtscode> oh really?
<adrien> for instance:
<adrien> # let add = (+);;
<adrien> val add : int -> int -> int = <fun>
<adrien> # let add2 = add 2;;
<adrien> val add2 : int -> int = <fun>
<adrien> (the (+) notation simply gives a function from the + operator)
* dtscode nods
<dtscode> makes sense
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<dmbaturin> dtscode: Arrows associate to the right. 'a -> 'b -> 'c = 'a -> ('b -> 'c)
<dtscode> yeah makes sense
<dmbaturin> Also, arrow is a real type you can use in type annotations and module signatures. let bar (f : int -> int) x = f x
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<dtscode> Yeah I'm reading real world ocaml, and I actually just came to the part describing that :D
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<tobiasBora> Hello !
<tane> hi :)
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<tobiasBora> I have a little question about ocamlbuild : I put in the "After_rules" (in myocamlbuild.ml) this rule : http://paste.ubuntu.com/11624958
<tobiasBora> It should copy the file %.cmo into _server/%.cmo
<tobiasBora> The debug print show me that the copy is done
<tobiasBora> however when I look after in the _build/_server nothing is present...
<tobiasBora> Like if the ocamlbuild function removed it...
<tobiasBora> Do you know how it is possible ?
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<tobiasBora> A funny thing : if I copy the file in %_2.cmo it is not removed, while %.cmo is removed...
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<tobiasBora> The thing is that is the %.cmo file is generated from the last Cmd [...] option, it works,
<tobiasBora> But if the file is generated in Ocaml it doesn't work.
<tobiasBora> (the produced file is removed)
<tobiasBora> Does anyone knows why ?
<tobiasBora> (and knows a better way than putting Cmd (S ["mv"; "file_tmp.cmo"; "file.cmo"]) (which is soooo dirty) ?
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<paarth> Could someone help me understand what I'm messing up here? This involves nested module signatures. Link: http://pastebin.com/agwx8CQF
<def`> First you should avoid cycles
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<tobiasBora> paarth: Your code is strange: A include B and B include A...
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<paarth> so here's what I really want
<paarth> a module A
<paarth> a module B that depends on A
<paarth> however is referenced from outside through A.B, treating A as a namespace
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<paarth> my first thought is to take the functionality in A and demote it to a submodule then provide top-level functions to map to functions in A
<paarth> * top level functions in top-level A to map to functions in A'
<paarth> so def` I'm trying to say that A doesn't actually depend on B (at least not logically)
<def`> 'not logically' :)
<def`> as long as there is a reference...
<paarth> def`, do you think my followup is a sane way of handling it?
<def`> (you're special case could be made working, the compiler is just not aware that A from outside is the same as A from inside)
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<def`> your followup?
<paarth> def`, to take the functionality I've got in A and put it into a new submodule, make B depend on A', and make the top-level A essentially a container with functions that I want at that top level namespace mapping to functions in A'
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<ollehar> solr/elastic bindings for ocaml?
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<ollehar> ok...
<ollehar> just googled for solr
<ollehar> thanks
<ollehar> paarth: why do you include B SIG in a.mli?
<ollehar> oh, maybe that was solved...
<ollehar> did disconnect/reconnect
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<paarth> ollehar, I wanted to be able to reference B as A.B
<paarth> that's a pattern I saw in nocrypto
<ollehar> sure, but you know that b.ml creates an implicit module B?
<ollehar> so you get two B SIG
<paarth> this I did not know. I thought b.ml would satisfy B SIG in a.mli
<ollehar> hm, don't think so. you get two B SIG, one within A SIG and one outside of A SIG
<paarth> is it possible to satisfy the one within A SIG except as a submodule in a.ml?
<tobiasBora> Grrr ocamlbuild makes me crazy
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<tobiasBora> I juste want to add an option "-I myfolder" to "ocamlfind ocamlc ..."
<tobiasBora> When I do "ocamlbuild -I myfolder ..." the -I flag isn't given to "ocamlfind ocamlc", and I tryied "ocamlbuild -cflags "-I,myfolder"" and it's the same thing;..
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<ollehar> paarth: well, your second error message tells you that you haven't implemented B' (B inside of A). so you can implement it, but then you get B.B SIG
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<ollehar> not sure of your use-case :P
<ollehar> paarth: and you still need to provide an implementation of B inside of A, since it's in the SIG
<ollehar> maybe you want a functor, not sure.
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<def`> paarth: what you want with a namespace like structure is what is done in libs such as core with module aliases
<def`> look them up in the manual
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<def`> and you could probably get that to work by using
<def`> module B = B in a.mli too
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<paarth> def`, you know, that's what I was trying to get working. It just went completely over my head that I needed those in the mli
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<companion_cube> Drup: +1 for glasshouse (didn't read the other Stross nicoo mentionned)
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<ollehar> def`: ah, did not know about that
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<MercurialAlchemi> another vote for glasshouse
<MercurialAlchemi> though Accelerando is mindblowing
<MercurialAlchemi> (but it's a bunch of short stories, not a real novel)
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<companion_cube> see also: Bruce Sterling
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<paarth> naive question: How is it that I can say Core_kernel.* when there isn't a core_kernel.mli?
<paarth> in the source tree*
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<dsheets> paarth, -pack
<adrien> -evil
<dsheets> indeed, it usually causes more headaches than it's worth
<dsheets> and really complicates name resolution logic
<paarth> Is there a non-evil option for constructing a module based on submodules where those submodules are not independently available?
<MercurialAlchemi> hmm, Bruce Sterling, haven't read anything by him since Storm Chasers
<MercurialAlchemi> or whatever that was called
<companion_cube> I only read schismatrice, but it's really good
<MercurialAlchemi> ah, it's an oldie but goodie
<MercurialAlchemi> he has some short stories set in the same universe
<MercurialAlchemi> that was back when cyberpunk was cool
<MercurialAlchemi> Neuromancer and all that
<MercurialAlchemi> Walter Jon Williams has written some good cyberpunk too, if you're into that
<Drup> I didn't knew cyberpunk stopped being cool, it just went mainstream and a lot of crap was produced. :D
<companion_cube> well schismatrix is more a space opera imho
<MercurialAlchemi> think I still have Voice of the Whirlwind somewhere
<companion_cube> a space cyberopera :p
<MercurialAlchemi> Drup: it stopped being cool when people stopped writing proper cyberpunk :)
<Drup> cyperspace opera ? :D
<MercurialAlchemi> well, I don't know, not much opera about it
<MercurialAlchemi> no dogfights in space or idiots with lightsabers
<companion_cube> lots of punk, but not that much cyber :p
<companion_cube> oh, ok
<companion_cube> but still in a large spatial setting with spaceships and all :p
<MercurialAlchemi> yep
<MercurialAlchemi> though still more "cyberpunk in space" kind of thing
<MercurialAlchemi> you even have spaceships in Neuromancers anyway
<Drup> MercurialAlchemi: Surface details feature neither and is still pretty damn good space opera
<nicoo> MercurialAlchemi: I read Accelerando too (and Rapture of the Nerds) and it's really good, yes
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<Drup> (We are totally in #sci-fi-books now :D)
<companion_cube> accelerando is almost too dense, imho
<MercurialAlchemi> nicoo: only problem with Accelerando, it needs a pause button to absorb the concepts
<Drup> companion_cube: I raise you Hyperion.
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<MercurialAlchemi> but at least it moves forward a bit faster than a typical Proust novel
<companion_cube> Drup: I love hyperion
<Drup> I don't understand hyperion
<MercurialAlchemi> the first two are brilliant
<MercurialAlchemi> the last two are useful when it's cold in winter and you need to start the fire
<companion_cube> I don't need to understand everything to love the book :p
<Drup> I read it, I process, and then I realized I didn't retained anything of it
<Drup> I tried several time
<companion_cube> oh.
<MercurialAlchemi> well, I don't claim I understand everything
<dtscode> Why do I not need to do **. for floats? Why can I just do **?
<MercurialAlchemi> (like the buildings going backward in time)
<companion_cube> yeah
<Drup> dtscode: there is no operator overloading in ocaml
<MercurialAlchemi> dtscode: you need to +. for floats as well
<companion_cube> but the characters are nice, the universe is awesome, the storytelling is really good
<nicoo> companion_cube: Sterling's _Difference Engine_ (co-authored with William Gibson) is reaaaaaally good
<Drup> Oh.
<Drup> dtscode: well, there is no ** on ints, that's all :)
<dtscode> Drup: This isn't about operator overloading
<companion_cube> nicoo: meh, stop teasing me
<nicoo> MercurialAlchemi: Yes
<dtscode> ah
<dtscode> thanks Drup
<companion_cube> open a blog and list books on it, now
<nicoo> companion_cube: I should actually do that on my GoodReads account :3
<Drup> nicoo: but, the Difference Engine is by baggage!
<Drup> :<
<nicoo> Drup: That the point
<companion_cube> sounds a bit too much like the naive AI technique of old
<MercurialAlchemi> the Difference Engine's universe was really good, but hell if I remember anything about the plot
<MercurialAlchemi> if there was one
<nicoo> Drup: _The Difference Engine_ tells you of a world were Babbage's computer worked. Steampunk panopticon
<nicoo> Formal logic
<nicoo> companion_cube: Is that enough teasing ?
<companion_cube> ohoh, nice
<Drup> ahah, that sounds awesome :D
<companion_cube> uchrony? do want
<adrien> paarth: we tend to "do it by hand" currently, i.e. Foo_bar instead of Foo.Bar
<companion_cube> nicoo: now hurry up and write this blog post
<MercurialAlchemi> hm, I thought he had a working design, but not the money to build such a monstruosity
<MercurialAlchemi> an uchrony where ocaml is popular, that'd be something
<MercurialAlchemi> we could call it "The Inference Engine"
<nicoo> Oh, also Palminpest is really good
<MercurialAlchemi> nicoo: don't know that one
<companion_cube> what's the Stross books you were recommending again?
<paarth> adrien, Foo_bar is still available for user access, correct?
<MercurialAlchemi> "In the Cities of Coin and Spice and In the Night Garden introduced readers to the unique and intoxicating imagination of Catherynne M. Valente. Now she weaves a lyrically erotic spell of a place where the grotesque and the beautiful reside and the passport to our most secret fantasies begins with a stranger’s kiss."
<MercurialAlchemi> hmm
<adrien> paarth: what do you mean "user access"?
<companion_cube> nicoo: the laundry something?
<paarth> adrien, let's say you're building a library. In the situation you've described a user of that library will be able to access the Bar submodule as Foo.Bar but also as Foo_bar. Is that right?
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<adrien> no
<adrien> what I meant was that instead of having bar.ml and packing inside Foo, we would have foo_bar.ml
<adrien> it's a bit too simple but it easy to deal with and to understand
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<Drup> It's also not that good
<Drup> you should use module aliases instead
<Drup> We should really walk away from "underscore as namespace separators"
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<Drup> it's semantically ugly and it prevents some use of the tooling
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<adrien> I need to get more up to date with the most recent ocaml versions; I had completely forgotten about module aliases
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<Drup> adrien: You are so old.
<Drup> :]
<adrien> /kick Drup
<t4nk822> After quite some time of using ocamlgraph I am still not so satisfied: how can I just get an arbitrary node from a graph? Or a list of all nodes?
<adrien> damn, forgot to get that +o
<paarth> Drup, that's exactly what I needed. Thanks all!
<Drup> t4nk822: To get an arbitrary need, use the Choose functor
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<Drup> for a list of all nodes, you can easily compose that function with fold_vertex
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<Drup> (the Choose functor is in the Oper module)
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<ollehar> any other languages like koka with side-effect inference?
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<Drup> (still going to read that word with a m instead of a h, though)
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<ollehar> problem with opam on slackware 13.1
<ollehar> cudf MD5 don
<ollehar> don't match
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<ollehar> using ocaml 3.12.1
<companion_cube> Drup: too abstract
<companion_cube> I'm not in the mood for cryptic haskell
<ollehar> asch, have to sleep
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<struk|work> argh..."make cold" broke all of a sudden in the opam sources because this url now gets redirected and thus md5sum fails..https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/33593/cudf-0.7.tar.gz
<Drup> struk|work: I got that fixed 3 days ago
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<struk|work> Drup: what branch? I am trying to work of 1.2.2
<Drup> it means the inria forge reseted the privacy setting AGAIN
<struk|work> *off
<struk|work> ah darn
<Drup> grrr
<struk|work> I am going to work around with a git clone using v0.7 tag, for now
<Drup> like, once was not stupid enough
<struk|work> surprised I didn't see this before as I run make cold like 5-10 times a day lately :)
<Drup> struk|work: remind me tomorrow in the afternoon if it's not fixed.
<struk|work> will do
<struk|work> Drup: lol: https://scm.gforge.inria.fr/
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<Leonidas> struk|work: hey, it works!
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<afahim> anyone here uses ecaml?
<afahim> slash, i'm trying to install ecaml, I have it in a .opt file. how would you recommend I install it to my computer?
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