<whitequark>
or rather, that happens if you use untypeast.
<SomeDamnBody>
but do I have to specify the types of the functions?
<SomeDamnBody>
is there any way around that?
<whitequark>
what do you mean?
<whitequark>
you do need to specify the module type explicitly *somewhere*
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<cojy>
what would be a good reason to use objects instead of first class modules? don't they cover much of the same use case?
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<whitequark>
not really, no
<whitequark>
objects don't have existentials
<whitequark>
first class modules don't have row polymorphism
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<cojy>
hmm, i was thinking you could get the same thing as object's row polymorphism by using the new open variants with them
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<whitequark>
open variants aren't polymorphic
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<vanila>
is the ocaml type system more complex than haskells?
<whitequark>
I don't think so
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<flux>
well, ocaml has subtyping and row-types, though maybe ghc has those as extensions..
<larhat1>
I think it may depend on what haskell you're talking about: haskell 98 or GHC with all its extensions
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<ggole>
There's objects and modules and poly-variants, which are a fair amount of machinery
<ggole>
Neither seem particularly simple.
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<mcc>
So, I was recommended alainfrisch/sedlex by people on this channel, it is great, but it is missing a couple of features I want
<mcc>
I may try to implement these features myself, I guess... does anyone have any advice on what way of going about this would be most likely to get my patch accepted
<whitequark>
Drup is now the maintainer of sedlex, I believe
<whitequark>
so just make it useful
<mcc>
oh huh ok
<mcc>
is github/alainfrisch/sedlex still the place to submit pull requests
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<whitequark>
in worst case they'll be merged manually
<mcc>
ok
<mcc>
what i think i am going to implement is
<mcc>
- some kind of minus operator, i want to be able to match on ` whitespace - "\n" `
<mcc>
- it really would simplify things for me if sedlex would internally track the line number and position-within-line of the current parser position
<mcc>
i'm currently tracking that outside sedlex and it is clumsy
<whitequark>
oh, wait, that's not quite what you want
<whitequark>
yeah. both should be easy to implement
<mcc>
There's a complement already
<mcc>
"intersect"
<mcc>
would probably also get me what i want
<mcc>
because then i could intersect (compl \n) with whitespace
<whitequark>
sure. but I think minus would be useful too
<mcc>
*nod* intersect might be harder to implement anyway
<whitequark>
not really
<whitequark>
should be about same
<whitequark>
take a look at cset
<mcc>
ok
<mcc>
if i figure this out i'll probably be asking some questions about whether i can depend on it in my project (i.e.: if i send someone my project, can they easily set up opam to get my extensions)
<mcc>
now i'm going to sleep now though. ttyl!
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<mcc>
...now
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<jcdyer>
I'm trying to split out my first OCaml app into multiple modules, and running into some linking issues. I've included gtk with -I +lablgtk2 lablgtk2.cma gtkInit.cmo, but I'm getting an error of "Cannot find file lablgtk2.cma during linking.
<jcdyer>
If I remove lablgtk2.cma from the linking command, I get "Reference to undefined global GtkMain"
<Leonidas>
ah, 4.1.0 is not yet released, that's why the binding was not yet updated and hardly anyone ran into this problem.
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<t4nk040>
Leonidas: Thanks for the help, i changed some parts in the zmq ocaml code and it compiles now
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<struk|work>
t4nk040: have you thought about serialization? what's going to be your strategy? (or is it not relevant for your project..)
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<t4nk040>
struk|work: i am using jane streets bin_prot for serialization
<struk|work>
t4nk040: cool yeah I tried that with zmq before worked perfectly fine
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<t4nk040>
struk|work: you tried it before, did you switch to something else?
<struk|work>
t4nk040: well the project I workedo n that needed zmq lost it's steam, on other projects I switched to protocol buffers (w/riak). Both are good choices I think though
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<struk|work>
t4nk040: this was my attempt to make zmq a little easier to work with (a module per messaging strategy, strong typing on the payload, etc.) but I doubt this project even compiles anymore: https://github.com/struktured/mpmw/tree/master/lib
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<mrvn>
\o/
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<_andre>
does anyone know if in async there's any way to close a Reader without having it close the associated Fd.t?
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<vbmithr>
Leonidas: I completed a binding to nanomsg too (github.com/vbmithr/onanomsg/
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<bluebelle>
When constructing values of which type defined using GADT, sometimes (specifically, when a type variable is unused in the resulting type) I get (Constructor <poly>) as the value. Is it normal?
<ggole>
This is because printing in the toplevel is type driven, but the type says nothing about what the argument might be
<bluebelle>
ggole: Ah I see, thanks
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<ggole>
A clear example is type any = Any : 'a -> any
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<Leonidas>
vbmithr: nice :-)
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<Leonidas>
I'm waiting for cohttp to be fixed to use your websocket-lib
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<badkins>
I'd like to experiment with some concurrent programming in ML - is anyone familiar with both Core Async and CML in SML who might comment on some pros/cons?
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<Drup>
can anyone propose unusual piece of ocaml syntax/typing (for some tests) ?
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<Drup>
badkins: CML seems to be message-passing based
<badkins>
I'm watching John Reppy's presentation on CML at ICFP in 2009 here: http://vimeo.com/6628118 I'm guessing that uchicago page is simply abandoned, but maybe CML work is simply part of SML/NJ now
<Drup>
the website I linked is still marked as the official page on wikipedia
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<Drup>
badkins: regardless of the semantic, CML seems quite poor and not well documented
<Drup>
what do you want to experiment exactly ?
<badkins>
initially, a simple http server
<Drup>
that's not the funniest choice ever, but why not. Use lwt.
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<badkins>
I know nothing about lwt - would that be your choice?
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<ingsoc>
still early days for me with ocaml and type-inference seems really cool. Why is this not in things like java and c# ? Apologies if this is a stupid question with an obvious technical reason
<Drup>
No reason.
<Tekk_>
ingsoc: it's in C++
<Tekk_>
and I believe C#
<ingsoc>
and has anyone got any real information on how ocaml compares to other languages performance wise, as one of the main reasons I am learning it is a high performance sequential execution
<Drup>
It's pretty limited and broken in C++, due to the fact that they don't have a real type system
<ingsoc>
well I have not looked at newere versionso of c#
<Drup>
ingsoc: sequential performances are very good
<ingsoc>
so maybe this has been added but afaict typical code is littered with types
<Tekk_>
ingsoc: lies, damned lies, and benchmarks
<Tekk_>
if tends to hover in the same area as C and C++ though afaik
<ingsoc>
well i know benchmarks canskew results
<ingsoc>
that's why i was asking if anyone had a kind of feeling compared to other languages
<ingsoc>
like how much slower real world is it than java or c++ or python etc.
<S11001001>
ingsoc: to answer the inference question for yourself, try solving this inference problem in C#: infer the argument and result types of this C# method:
<ingsoc>
i mean, any experience of comparing something they had already implemented in another language
<ingsoc>
oh yeah, they have generics for that
<ingsoc>
where you can specify a typed array
<ingsoc>
is that what you mean ?
<S11001001>
ingsoc: not really
<S11001001>
ingsoc: pretend you are a C# compiler
<S11001001>
ingsoc: you are aiming for the ocaml ideal of most general signature
<Tekk_>
well obviously x has to be whatever the equivalent of IContainer is
<Tekk_>
and I'd say that you have a generic for y, so you need to be using the generic syntax :)
<S11001001>
you must solve for α, β, γ: α Blah(β x, γ y) {return x.Append(y);}
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<Tekk_>
ah
<Tekk_>
I've got it
<Tekk_>
compiler error: no such method: Append.
<Tekk_>
all the C# stuff uses .Add I think :P
<S11001001>
Tekk_: how would it tell there isn't such a method?
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<Tekk_>
S11001001: simple. you didn't define any other classes
<Tekk_>
so I can only look in the standard library
<Tekk_>
and afaict there are no classes with the Append method in the standard library
<pippijn>
global type inference would be interesting
<pippijn>
in C#
<Drup>
Tekk_: you are missing the point.
<pippijn>
remove all the types, see how far you get
<Tekk_>
Drup: yes I am. it's often so much more fun to :)
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<S11001001>
ingsoc: anyway think about that for a while.
<Drup>
depends, in this case, you are just trapping the discussion into unnecessary pickyness.
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<S11001001>
ingsoc: and let me know when you come up with an answer :)
<ingsoc>
S11001001: well, unless there is only one object/class with and Append method and that method has only one method signature then it cannot be inferred accurately to a specific type
<ingsoc>
if there is more than one then there will be any number of combinations of possible types ?
<ingsoc>
based onthe method parameters
<S11001001>
ingsoc: a large combination
<S11001001>
ingsoc: and even if there is only one, you may be quite surprised at the choice
<ingsoc>
ok, so why is this different in ocaml
<ingsoc>
ahhh
<Drup>
because there is no equivalent of "method overload"
<ingsoc>
ah i see
<ingsoc>
yeah
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<ingsoc>
so you are already limited in scope to search
<Drup>
(there are other reasons, but this is a big one)
<ingsoc>
as in the number of combinations
<S11001001>
ingsoc: even if you could not overload a name within a class, you would still have this problem in C#, because use of the same name and arity in other classes counts as "overloads"
<ingsoc>
well yeah I wqas thinking along those lines but then I thoguht ocaml has OOP too (although have no idea how it is implemented)
<Drup>
yeah
<ingsoc>
I am literally just starting out with the top level
<Drup>
ocaml's OOP is a weird one, so we should let this explanation to future work :D
<Drup>
but basically, there is no notion of class into the typesystem, only what you could call prototypes, typed structurally.
<ingsoc>
ok so it is simply down tot he design of the languages and their semantics as to how effective type inference can be. i.e. ocaml was designed with the expectation of being able to infere typoe
<ingsoc>
S11001001: so does OOP work then, or is this different OOP to how I would recognise in a traditional imperative OO language ?
<ingsoc>
so how does*
<Drup>
ingsoc: " ocaml was designed with the expectation of being able to infere type" there is that, and there is other less-respectable reasons like lack of knowledge of type systems by the designers of the languages.
<Drup>
In C++, they just introduced "auto" because, in practice, most of it can be infered, even if not all.
<ingsoc>
so, in addition to more up front thinking from the ocaml designers to aid inference, ocaml also has just a more sophisticated type system and compiler than a lot of other environments
<Drup>
ingsoc: you could say that
<Drup>
(be careful, the compilers for C++/java/C# are *very* sophisticated)
<Drup>
(just that typechecking is not their main concern :p)
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<ingsoc>
really surpised a statically typed language can compete with a super dynamic langauge like python on code brevity
<ingsoc>
Drup: yeah I hear ya
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<Tekk_>
ingsoc: why's that?
<Drup>
ingsoc: it's a very classic misconception due to some other statically typed language that are ... less brief. :p
<struk>
Drup: translation: java/c++/C# gives statically typed languages a bad rep
<Drup>
C# probably less so than the two others.
<struk>
Drup: yeah well it is the 3rd iteration of an OO language based on C
<Drup>
(but arguably, c# is not a statically typed language anymore)
<struk>
Drup you mean that "var" construct, or something else?
<ingsoc>
Tekk_: Maybe it is because I am comparing how c#/java compares to python in my experience and how although catching a certain number of bugs at compile time, I always found that static typing definitely had quite an impact on code size all the manual explicit type entries and for things like having to use delegates to pass functions to other methods, having to use interfaces to be able to operate on a common type polymorphism.
<ingsoc>
and yeah seems c# i getting more and more dynamic manhole escape facilities
<ingsoc>
is*
<Drup>
struk: I don't know c# very much, but it was my understand that you could use dynamic typing everywhere if you wanted to
<ingsoc>
i have not done anything with it for years
<ingsoc>
you didn't used to be able to
<Drup>
ingsoc: yeah, that exactly what I was saying :D
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<ingsoc>
S11001001: Drup: Hannibal_Smith: thanks for the info