adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<perry> is there a way to force OPAM to use wget? There seems to be an issue with my system's version of curl
<perry> nevermind.
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<wmeyer> ousado: in OCaml?
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<orbitz> ousado: you want inheritence? Why not just have a collection of functions?
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<invariant> opam 0.9.something has been announced, but following their quick install results in some 0.8.2 version.
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<orbitz> hah
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<ousado> wmeyer, orbitz: this is for a haxe target. I'd like to omit it, but the language wouldn't be complete without support for OOP-style inheritance
<ousado> implementation language will be be ATS/C
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<ousado> hml, that's misleading, target language will be ATS/C, code generation will be done in ocaml
<ousado> and I'd like to have some kind of fast-path for everything that doesn't require dynamic dispatch. basically the disctinction between non-virtual vs virtual methods in C++.
<companion_cube> compiling to ATS? sounds interesting
<ousado> yes, haxe lacks a nice native target currently
<pippijn> compiling to ATS?
<ousado> the c++ target suffers from "Dynamic" which basically forces the runtime to expect boxed, untyped values everywhere
<ousado> pippijn: yes, I want to add a ATS/C backend to haxe
<ousado> the plan is to only support the non-"Dynamic" subset first
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<f[x]> mfp, hello, I am thinking about generating lazy extprot unserialize code, because currently I've got large structures that some readers don't need in full
<f[x]> one trick is partial structure when the needed fields are at beginning
<f[x]> unfortunately it is not always the case
<f[x]> and full unserialize puts a big pressure on gc
<mfp> sounds doable, albeit very tricky
<f[x]> do you think it is worthwhile to try?
<f[x]> yes, no fixed offsets
<f[x]> but probably I can run once and save all offsets for toplevel record items
<mfp> it's doable because the format allows to skip fields, since it always prefixes with the size (or the latter is fixed given the type)
<f[x]> then when accessing field just start unserializing it from given offset
<mfp> in fact, the generated code always does so (skip until the end of the message) when it finds an error
<mfp> but the code generation will be a PITA
<f[x]> we all love camlp4 :)
<f[x]> code generation is always pita if the generated code has to be clever...
<f[x]> more generally - generating anything clever is pita :)
<f[x]> but I have to do something about it or the gc will kill me
<mfp> it's not only camlp4 :), it's also that it's a fair amount of work: you have to define new types with lazy fields (recursively ?), then instead of deserializing you keep the strings around until needed and stuff
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<f[x]> only toplevel fields will be lazy
<f[x]> or accessors
<f[x]> keep one string and needed offsets
<mfp> hmm what about this -> restructuring the readers so that each field is read in a separate function and the outermost one essentially does let field1 = read_field1 r in let field2 = read_field2 r in .... { field1; field2; ... }
<mfp> and then exposing them all, along with some lower-level interface that knows about the format and allows you to get the nth field using one of the generated read_fieldN
<mfp> but it still sounds like a nontrivial amount of work
<f[x]> that's the way to go
<f[x]> to avoid code duplication
<mfp> hmm this would be easier if we had a bottom value; then you could create a message that mirrors the original one, replacing unneeded fields with it (and skipping as needed on deserialization)
<mfp> with it = with the bottom value
<avsm> dont you want lenses for that?
<avsm> a view into the underlying buffer, with get/put functions
<f[x]> mfp, but different readers may want different subsets of fields
<mfp> f[x]: you'd need one message def per wanted subset
<f[x]> yes, not very cool, but easier, yes
<mfp> avsm: would that work with straightforward type definitions for the messages?
<avsm> your parser would turn into a scanner that records offsets in the buffer and creates the lens, which would provide a lazy get
<avsm> for small messages, this would be slower but still more memory efficient in most cases
<avsm> for large message, it's a win
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<mfp> ic, so that'd allow me to reuse the code for both the eager and the lazy message defs
<mfp> f[x]: are the required fields messages themselves? if so, what about skipping unwanted ones with some low-level code and then deserializing using their readers?
<f[x]> no, usually not
<mfp> f[x]: that is, using Extprot.Reader.IO_reader/String_reader functions directly to skip, then reading
<mfp> well, even if they're simple types, you could read them directly with Reader.S.read_xxx
<f[x]> true, but that will likely stop me from implementing nice and shiny general solution :)
<mfp> the downside of course being that you are deserializing everything by hand with no support from the generated code (if none of the wanted fields is actually a message itself)
<mfp> well yes, the general solution sounds great but... it's a lot of work :/ which I cannot do atm.
<f[x]> talking about hacks - is there a way to write a definition - copy of existing ones but without some inner fields - so that those inner fields don't get unserialized but rather replaced with some sentinel value?
<f[x]> I could probably easily tweak error-handling code to continue unparsing instead of error out
<mfp> I think so
<mfp> it could be done by defining some hardcoded bottom type in the extprot message def lang
<mfp> and the corresponding deserialization code would just skip the field with Reader.S.skip_value and return e.g. Obj.magic 0
<mfp> oh wait
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<mfp> if you can use a separate message definition, you can as well change the type of those fields to type dummy = Dummy
<mfp> just needs a special hardcoded deserializer for it that skips the actual value
<f[x]> nice
<mfp> easy to do, and still (mostly) keeps type safety, you just have to make sure the message definition is the same as the original one modulo the type of the unwanted fields
<mfp> which could even be checked by extprotc given some new construction like message foo = partial original_message { foo : int; unwanted : dummy; this_one_wanted : whatever }
<mfp> and to wrap it up, unwanted can be removed from the generated type definition
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<f[x]> imagining better syntax: message new = original without x,y,z :)
<f[x]> ok, dreaming
<f[x]> back to work
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<thomm4> hi. can someone give a rough estimate of the size of the complete ocaml platform, in mbs?
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<orbitz> thomm4: AFAIK the ocaml paltform isn't complete
<thelema> orbitz: I don't think thomm4 is referring to the ocaml labs project, but instead to a complete install of ocaml
<orbitz> oh
* adrien abhors platforms and SDKs, these anger me
<thelema> which of course depends on your platform
<thelema> err, architecture
<orbitz> what do you consider 'complete'?
<adrien> I had a prefix which was 1.5GB and I think that included several source tarballs
<thelema> orbitz: I'd probably only count the standard distribution; what you get from 'make world' in the compiler dir
<thelema> maybe 'make world opt'
<thomm4> ah, i was hoping for it to be much smaller.
<adrien> 1.5GB was with *many* things installed
<thomm4> I'm on a quota here and the sys admin isn't budging on space.
<adrien> my current prefix is 900MB, probably with some tarballs and still many libraries
<orbitz> thomm4: what is your quota?
<thomm4> i think i could get by with just the compiler, a profiler, some basic libraries.
<adrien> if you want to build ocaml, use /tmp, install to your HOME, it won't take a lot of space
<thomm4> i have about 300 mb free.
<thelema> I have a full install of batteries and ocaml 3.12 in <200M under a 64-bit linux system
<thomm4> thelema, really?
<thelema> old batteries
<adrien> ocaml 3.12.1: 170MB uncompressed
<adrien> that's around the biggest you'll get
<thomm4> ok, i'll give that a shot.
<thelema> thomm4: yes, it's not really that large
<thomm4> thanks.
<thelema> which reminds me that I should install a newer version on the cluster.
<thelema> and about 85MB of that is camlp4
<thelema> 9 MB for labltk
<thelema> 62 MB of binaries
<thelema> hmm, ocaml binaries aren't too slim.
<thomm4> so.. the packages labltk, camlp4 and the emacs package should be enough for a minimal setup?
<adrien> thomm4: unstripped? .opt binaries too?
<thomm4> adrien, I'm not sure what you mean.
<adrien> erf, that was for thelema, sorry
<thelema> thomm4: I'm indicating which packages could be removed without impacting major functionality
<adrien> labltk can be skipped fairly safely
<thelema> adrien: yes, unstripped and opt
<adrien> camlp4, it depends
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<thelema> 36MB of the executables are camlp4 and its variants
<thomm4> ok.
<thelema> new batteries needs no camlp4
<thomm4> i'm a haskell refugee, i don't otherwise know much about ocaml. or its setup.
<tac-tics> thomm4: heh, a refugee, you say?
<thelema> thomm4: it may be interesting building ocaml from scratch with a low quota
<thelema> I'm just listing the installed file size
<thelema> the build directory fpr 3.12.1 is 323MB
<thelema> although again 191M of that is camlp4. You'd probably have to hack the makefile to disable camlp4
<adrien> it's not really doable
<thelema> I dunno
<adrien> but /tmp has no quota usually
<thelema> :)
<adrien> thelema: no, you don't need to do anything to disable camlp4
<thomm4> tac-tics: yeah, haskell's a nice language, but it has some features I don't entirely like, that ocaml lacks.
<adrien> it's a simple matter of -no-camlp4
<thelema> adrien: ah, nice.
<adrien> or -nocamlp4
<thelema> adrien: never tried it.
<adrien> it became available with 4 I think
<thelema> adrien: ah, ok.
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<thelema> I don't think I've ever build 4.00 myself; ocamlbrew has always taken care of it for me.
<adrien> as far as I'm concerned, I had to add -no-ocamldoc, -no-ocamlbuild, -no-I-can't-remember-what
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<thomm4> dang, ocamlbrew went over the quota.
<thomm4> now is the time for stupid puns about straw breaking the caml's back.
<thelema> yes, you'd have to tweak it to use /tmp or to disable camlp4
<thomm4> is Batteries especially large?
<thomm4> the source file looked quite small.
<thelema> no
<thomm4> of course, it's installed ocaml 4.00 and not 3.12
<thomm4> installing*
<thelema> batteries is about 40MB to build, and about 15MB installed
<thomm4> ok, camlp4 is the main thing to avoid.
<thelema> yes
<thomm4> it's not asking me if i want to install it.
<thelema> thomm4: yes, you'll have to build this by hand to disable camlp4
<thelema> it's rarely disabled
<thelema> but also not necessary for most packages.
<thelema> (although it is quite necessary for core)
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<adrien> core is pretty huge however iirc
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<thelema> true.
<orbitz> big cajones
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