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<opla2>
how do i define an abstact member that takes two arguments?
<opla2>
abstract member MyMethod : int -> bool WORKs
<opla2>
but
<opla2>
abstract member MyMethod : (int,String) -> bool DONT WORK
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<roconnor>
any tips on writing or simulating non-uniform recursive data types in ocaml?
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<roconnor>
oh it looks like not only is -rectypes not neccessary for non-uniform types, it is actually unhelpful
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<Teme>
Anybody in
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<lewis1711>
is there a function to get the type of something? I have a feeling this is contrary to the type system..
<flux>
lewis1711, nope
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<Anarchos>
hi everybody
<Anarchos>
hi adrien, i finally finish the schema matching for my first order verifier
<adrien>
\o/
<Anarchos>
i will begin to verify and formalize the set theory as exposed in dehornoy's book
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<notk0>
hello, I have 2 functions that depend on each other and under emacs when I evaluate the buffer it ells me that they are not defines
<notk0>
is this normal?
<adrien>
are you using 'let rec f = ... and g = ...' ?
<notk0>
adrien, what do you mean? one is recursive but it does not contain the definition of another inside it
<adrien>
does g call f and f call g?
<notk0>
adrien, yes
<adrien>
so you need this "let rec and" construct
<notk0>
adrien, so the only way is to define g inside f?
<adrien>
no
<adrien>
let rec f () =
<adrien>
g ()
<adrien>
and g () =
<adrien>
f ()
<notk0>
but they are different?
<adrien>
from what?
<notk0>
I get it, and interprets them at the "same" time?
<adrien>
I don't know exactly how ocaml types them
<adrien>
(well, I guess it does its best leaves some things opened and tries to unify later on)
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* roconnor
tries his hand at non-uniform types in ocaml
<roconnor>
does ocaml have type synonyms?
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<flux>
yes. type int2 = int ?
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<roconnor>
ah good
<roconnor>
Polymorphic recursion in ocaml isn't nearly as impossible as some people make it sound.
<flux>
who make it sound impossible?
<roconnor>
maybe these people were talking about sml
<kmicinski>
same questoin
<kmicinski>
*question
<kmicinski>
shouldn't be any more difficult in sml than ocaml
<roconnor>
Okasaki remarks, "[a]lthough Standard ML allows the definition of non-uniform recursive datatypes, the type system disallows most of the interesting functions on such types." (Okasaki, Chris. Purely Functional Data Structures, p. 143).
<kmicinski>
good book, I'm getting that one for christmas :)
<roconnor>
does sml support records with polymorphic types for fields?
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<roconnor>
heh. I google for applicative functors and ocaml, but only found the wrong sort of applicative functors
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<roconnor>
can I parameterize types by type constructors in ocaml?
<thelema>
roconnor: for example?
<roconnor>
type f foo = Int f
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<roconnor>
then list foo = Int list
<flux>
what is Int?
<roconnor>
some type of integers
<roconnor>
I forget what it is called in ocaml
<flux>
well, perhaps something like type t = Int of i | String of s ?
<thelema>
Int looks like a variant declarator
<flux>
(of int, of string, of course)
<thelema>
type 'a foo = Int of 'a
<roconnor>
forget Int
<roconnor>
let's take string instead then
<thelema>
roconnor: I think I know what you're asking for. Ocaml can't do [type 'a foo = int 'a] (where 'a is list / array / set / etc)
<roconnor>
type f foo = string f
<roconnor>
thelema: ya that's what I want
<roconnor>
oh
<roconnor>
maybe I should be using a functor
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<roconnor>
can functor signatures contain fields for type constructors?
<flux>
you mean constructor names?
<thelema_>
you can have a functor (sig type 'a t end) -> (struct type foo = int t end)
<roconnor>
sig type 'a foo end
<roconnor>
this looks fruitful
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<Lajla>
Why, why isn't ; simply an infix operator with type unit -> 'a -> 'a
<Lajla>
Why?
<Lajla>
Can't you change this/
<Lajla>
can't you take people hostage demanding that they change this? =(
<Lajla>
It consumes my soul that it isn't, it festers within the deepest crescents of my mind.
<thelema_>
; is syntactically special
<thelema_>
partly so that one can do [a; if x then y else z; b; c]
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<Lajla>
Ah, okay.
<Lajla>
tHat is a good point.
<Lajla>
Then it no longer festers in my mind.
<Lajla>
THat was a lot less time consuming that holding people hostage, I have to say.
<thelema_>
glad to help
<Lajla>
so you see
<Lajla>
violence is not the answer.
<thelema_>
I've had my issues with ; (and if/then/else) in the past
<Lajla>
The pen, or at least, the IRC channel, is more powerful than the sword, however phallic the latter may be.
<Lajla>
Why with if then else?
<thelema_>
[if x then a; b else c] is invalid syntax, but [if x then let () = () in a; b else c] is valid
<Lajla>
Hmm, is the former invalid?
<Lajla>
[if x then ( a ; b) else c], is that invalid too?
<thelema_>
yes, the [else] isn't allowed after a ;, unless there's parentheses
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<Lajla>
Well
<thelema_>
your syntax is allowed
<Lajla>
that is more because it otherwise matches differentl
<Lajla>
It assumes (if x then a) ; (b else c)
<Lajla>
And (b else c) makes no sense
<thelema_>
exactly
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<Lajla>
I know my stuff.
<Lajla>
ACtually I understand less of OCaml than Sarah Palin does about counting to 20.
<lewis1711>
i am wondering if there is any "theoretical" stuff on the type system. I'm sure it has something to do with mathematics
<Lajla>
lewis1711, it's actually a restriction of SYstem F's type system.
<Lajla>
Whch is not the crappy Dutch ""trance"" artist, but rather some mistaken attempt of stupid people who lived in the bizarre idea that their conceptualism had any saying on foundational recursion theory.
<Lajla>
No doubt they voted republican.
<kmicinski>
lewis1711, read "Types and Programming Languages"
<Lajla>
These people are not like us, they live in the bizarre idea that whipping children is good.
<lewis1711>
Lajla: ferry has had his moments..most of it is crap but he struck gold once or twice
<lewis1711>
but yes, reading about system f
<lewis1711>
kmicinski: right, will look for that
<kmicinski>
you won't understand system f unless you read a lot beforehand
<Lajla>
Meh.
<Lajla>
System F can be applied to a lot of things besides a lambda calculus.
<kmicinski>
System F is buillt upon a lot more theory, if you read a bit before that, system f and the other related calculi will follow
<Lajla>
THere's not a lot stopping me from applying to to stuff like f(x) = x^3 + 2x^2 + 3x
<Lajla>
lewis1711, some would argue that Out of the Blue was the part where it all went wrong.
<lewis1711>
ha
<lewis1711>
Moonman - Don't Be Afraid is still a classic, IMO
<Lajla>
lewis1711, I would recommend you download it illegally and instead send a bread case filled with canine defaecation to the author with a note attached saying 'You won't earn money for selling information that for 99% was discovered by others from me'
<lewis1711>
my uni library has it
<Lajla>
It is a more oeconomical solution I would say.
<lewis1711>
hhaha
<Lajla>
I wouldn't recommend anyone by the way to try this at home, entering a channel as a total newbie, starting to educate the established users all the while injecting anarchist and innapropriate remarks.
<kmicinski>
Your Uni library is a good source
<kmicinski>
but that book's got some good material
<lewis1711>
kmicinski: that's a pretty big ass book. was really after an article or something just to get a feel for it.
<kmicinski>
lewis1711, it's an easy read
<kmicinski>
lewis1711, ML has its roots in mathematics, if you can't stand the theory it's probably not for you
<lewis1711>
I should hope i can, since i am doing a degree in maths. not very well mind you
<lewis1711>
but am getting there
<Lajla>
Wasn't ML originally a theorem proving language o some other language?
<kmicinski>
It was a metalanguage for LCF, yes
<Lajla>
Well, there is more mathematics than one, I mean, type theory and all that is as distinct from infinitesimal calculus as the latter is from marine biology.
<kmicinski>
lewis1711, it's not that kind of math, usually
<kmicinski>
usually in an undergrad set of courses you learn through calc, diff eq, a few courses in abstract algebra, and real analysis, with maybe a course in complex
<kmicinski>
none of that will really prepare you for this type of math, except perhaps the tolerance of proofs and emphasis on theory.
<Lajla>
lewis1711, what kmicinski is trying to say is that he's elitist, but all in good pardon because I am too.
<lewis1711>
sure. I meant that maths doesn't bother me
<kmicinski>
Lajla, not at all, I'm not saying I *know* it :-)
<lewis1711>
not that I know it already
<Lajla>
kmicinski, well, surely your interest in it places you heaps and bounds above the vulgate?
<kmicinski>
Lajla, no, interest doesn't help you
<kmicinski>
I'm interested in playing the drums well
<kmicinski>
doesn't mean I can actually play
<lewis1711>
the vulgate? where on earth did you learn english Lajla? (I am assuming you're a non-native speaker with that name)
<Lajla>
kmicinski, well, it does place you heaps and bounds above those interested in the triangle.
<kmicinski>
Not at all
<Lajla>
Ehhh.
<Lajla>
Discovery channel
<lewis1711>
don't lie. it was reading robinson crusoe.
<kmicinski>
My math program is heavily based in topology
<kmicinski>
those people know loads more than I do
<Lajla>
I'd reckon I'm reasonably adapt at unifying semantically devoid nonsense with an astute and remarkable literaly gramamtical quality.
<kmicinski>
and not much about this stuff
<Lajla>
All this in bad spelling.
<Lajla>
lewis1711, discovery channel is much worse.
<Lajla>
I watched it a lot when I was a kid, because I was bored.
<lewis1711>
yeah, that sentence doesn't make sense;)
<Lajla>
It does.
<Lajla>
It's just badly spelt.
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<Lajla>
But that was in the day that Discovery channel still wasn't full of mythbusters.
<kmicinski>
You can be elitist all you want, it won't help you unless you can pass
<kmicinski>
But I will say that once upon a time I thought I could learn the system f stuff quickly from some web article
<kmicinski>
and my hopes were quickly dashed ;)
<Lajla>
kmicinski, depends on what you call 'System F', how it works, or all stuff proven from it?
<Lajla>
I mean, I can say that I know ZFC because I know all the axioms, wow.
<kmicinski>
Lajla, how it influenced modern programming languages ad can be used to reason about them.
<Lajla>
kmicinski, I am actually unimpressed with system F or typed shit in general.
<Lajla>
typing is just a fancy way to say 'the grammar isn't context free'
<kmicinski>
You'd better be real prepared to make that claim
<Lajla>
I am ready, master.
<Lajla>
Actually not.
<kmicinski>
otherwise you'll have to argue with someone like Smerdyakov
<Lajla>
I'd probably get my arse theoretically whooped.
<kmicinski>
the bad part about saying things like that
<Lajla>
But really, I don't see what a type system is more than a way to make the grammar no long context free.
<Lajla>
But it adds 'concepts' to it.
<Lajla>
Because you 'conceptually' shouldn be able to add integers to strings or whatever.
<Lajla>
Well, I say to thee, I will, just because I can.
<kmicinski>
there's a whole part of mathematics behind it
<kmicinski>
you can do things with dependent types, etc...
<kmicinski>
stuff I shouldn't talk about.
<Lajla>
Yeah, I know that.
<Lajla>
But in the end.
<Lajla>
It still only results into having a grammar that isn't context free.
<kmicinski>
I still wouldn't say "I know that," that's all :)
<Lajla>
Yeah but that's still the only actual effect it has, that the grammar isn't context free any more.
<Lajla>
THerefore, I choose to eschew such bizarre and praetentious terms as 'dynamic typing' and all that and simply speak of context free programming languages and those who are not.
<Lajla>
And until someone comes with an awesome regular programming language, I feel kind of okay.
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<kmicinski>
you're viewing it from an automata based way
<kmicinski>
you can't reduce ML to something like that
<kmicinski>
otherwise you'll have to argue with extremely smart people
<Lajla>
=(
<Lajla>
That was never my greatest aset.
<Lajla>
Only arguiing with stupid people.
<Lajla>
But still.
<Lajla>
You can still capture everything a type system does by just saying that it doesn't make the grammar context free any more.
<Lajla>
And just say that things that are badly typed are 'ungrammatical'
<Lajla>
And be done with that.
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<lewis1711>
I guess, then what is the motivation for system F in general?
<Lajla>
I am also the kind of guy by the way who says that in a 'dynamically typed' error (+ 2 "Yo") is a valid operation. It just has an I/O side effect.
<Lajla>
I see no difference between that and (display "Blablabla" (current-error-port))
<kmicinski_>
If you're going to argue about ML, you'd better read everything in Pierce's book first
<kmicinski_>
;-)
<kmicinski_>
(at least)
<Lajla>
lewis1711, the motivation is I guess that simply typed lambda calculus is a paaaaain. =(
<Lajla>
kmicinski_, I would concede that I am an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about though.
<kmicinski_>
me too.
<Lajla>
I guess idiots do not think alike then. =(
<kmicinski_>
actually, Smerdyakov has a good comparison of ML vs. OCaml
<kmicinski_>
*SML
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<lewis1711>
I have purely functional data structures somewhere
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, "simply-typed lambda calculus is a pain"?
<Lajla>
What is a purely functional data structure?
<kmicinski_>
it's a book
<Lajla>
Ahhh
<Lajla>
I don't read those.
<Lajla>
That's for educated people.
<Lajla>
I watch TV.
<kmicinski_>
Lajla, they've got it in movie form now
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, yes.
<Lajla>
kmicinski_, no way.
<Lajla>
I should check it out.
<lewis1711>
is it as good as Erlang: The Movie?
<kmicinski_>
oh geeze.
<lewis1711>
Hello Joe, Hello Dave..
<lewis1711>
or for Ocaml... Bonjour Jean, Salut Jacque..
* Lajla
insere le bastille dans le derrière de lewis1711.
<Lajla>
Or is that inseres?
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, in what sense?
<Lajla>
French was so long ago. ;_;
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, it is not context free.
<lewis1711>
I don't know french, but I know enough to say "you wish"
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, so?
<Lajla>
lewis1711, I thought you were french.
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<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, neither is untyped lambda calculus.
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, well, if you do not find that not a pain.
<lewis1711>
if I was french I would be louis1711
<Lajla>
Then I cannot convince you, all personal.
<lewis1711>
lewis is an anglo-norman name
<Lajla>
At some point, debating taste will end up with personal axioms.
<Lajla>
but, if you vote republican.
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, from the fact that you wrote "simply-typed," I inferred that you meant that untyped lambda calculus is better off. Is that the case?
<Lajla>
you can try to convince me that my taste is bad.
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, well, it's turing complete.
<Lajla>
I think that's okay.
<Lajla>
But I more meant
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, and also not context-free.
<Lajla>
that System F is better off.
<Lajla>
Less hassle.
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, in what way?
<kmicinski_>
oh geeze, being turing complete,..., is just not all that difficult
<Lajla>
Okay
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, no context-free language enforces lack of dangling variable references in lambda terms.
<Lajla>
maybe I should stop saying stuff that might offend people and make them angry and praetend they are 'asking quaestions' while they in their mind already shot before they did so.
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, that's an interesting scenario, but it's not what's happening with me.
<Lajla>
Smerdyakov, freud begs to differ.
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, I'm genuinely confused by what you were saying about lambda calculus.
<Lajla>
Well.
<Lajla>
Let me take that back then
<Smerdyakov>
OK, it's a deal.
<Lajla>
and substitute, the reason behind system F was to extend and solve some problems with simply typed.
<Smerdyakov>
I'm sure no one can disagree with that.
<Lajla>
Where the most clear differene would be that system F introduces quantifications over types.
<Lajla>
Well
<Lajla>
there you have it.
<Lajla>
THat will be my more formal way of saying 'a pain'
<Lajla>
You have to pardon my immaturity, I am quite, quite, quite, young.
<Smerdyakov>
I grant thee pardon.
<kmicinski_>
It's okay, everyone was slightly less mature when they were younger
<Lajla>
Without buying an indulgence even, it's like the word of JEsus versus the Catholic Church.
<Lajla>
I like to see myself as being born with the advanced mind of a 14 year old, and haven't aged a bit since.
<Smerdyakov>
kmicinski_, not necessarily fitting that description.
<lewis1711>
I am not even sure what cr is meant to mean
<kmicinski_>
Smerdyakov, oh, sorry, I was under the impression your ideas with Ur/Web were to be made into a startup
<Smerdyakov>
kmicinski_, yeah, I've said that. It's all very wishy-washy right now.
<kmicinski_>
well, good luck
<Lajla>
lewis1711, I remember by the way, there was this NewsRadio episode where Max said 'To hang out is for the vulgate, in here we lounche'
<Lajla>
I think that was the first time I heard that term.
<lewis1711>
lounche?
<lewis1711>
that's not an english word
<Lajla>
REally?
<Lajla>
How do you write it.
<Lajla>
My spelling has the level of a republican who writes his own speeches.
<kmicinski_>
even republicans are using spell check these days, you know.
<kmicinski_>
(but such politics have no place on IRC channels ;-)
<Lajla>
I thought that computers were considered illegal in the Republican Faith.
<lewis1711>
do you mean lounge?
<lewis1711>
as in to laze about?
<Lajla>
lewis1711, I have no idea.
<Lajla>
Yeah.
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<lewis1711>
you almost made me insecure about my english
<lewis1711>
I actually googled lounche
<lewis1711>
you bastard
<Lajla>
My English is really quite bad, I'm just good at embedding countless sentences and relative clauses into each other thereby giving of a fake impressoin of having mastered the highest of literary styles.
<Lajla>
I like my languages how I like my porn, without context and going quite deep.
<Smerdyakov>
Lajla, I think some of us here would appreciate it if you'd stop trying to get a rise out of people, attract attention to yourself, etc..
<Lajla>
SEe, this is the part where I end up goolging a thesaurus 'get a rise out of', is probably not good but I'm not sure what it means.
<Lajla>
ahh, I see.
<Lajla>
Sure.
<schmx>
Smerdyakov++
<lewis1711>
...did you just increment something in an ML chatroom?
<krktz>
:DD
<krktz>
succ Smerdyakov
<kmicinski_>
does anyone have any pointers to papers on row types?
<kmicinski_>
I haven't heard of them
<schmx>
lewis1711: Smerdyakov is mutable, no?
<lewis1711>
haha
<Smerdyakov>
kmicinski_, I expect the context in which you heard the term leads to an easy recipe for finding more information.
<oriba>
row type sounds like sql
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<kmicinski_>
Smerdyakov, I just saw them on Ur, but I'll look through your papers
<kmicinski_>
sorry
<kmicinski_>
I didn't *mean* not to give credit to their inventor ;-)
<Smerdyakov>
kmicinski_, papers usually give references to past work on the subject, and I think mine doesn't deviate there.
<kmicinski_>
I understand.
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<kmicinski_>
sorry, should have read you first.
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<lewis1711>
I notice most ocaml code uses 2 space indentation. is this an "official" rule or just a common convention
<lewis1711>
?
<thelema_>
lewis1711: convention
<thelema_>
if/then/else usually doesn't get nested so deep
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<thelema>
similarly with loops. most people don't indent let...in x
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<lewis1711>
aiight. I'll keep with my usual 4. looks fine to me