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<palomer>
it seems that the match_selected is borked
<palomer>
can anyone help me to verify this?
<palomer>
ie, does anyone want to
* palomer
looks at thelema
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<palomer>
my kingdom for thelema!
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi
<gildor>
Yoric[DT]: hi
<Yoric[DT]>
HI
<Yoric[DT]>
Sorry, Hi.
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* Yoric[DT]
is currently trying to domesticate ocamlbuild's mllib feature.
* Camarade_Tux
just dreamt Yoric[DT] was doing rodeo on a horse named mllib
<Yoric[DT]>
Something like that.
<Camarade_Tux>
I'm still a bit asleep (went to bed a 2pm), so still in dreams =P
<Yoric[DT]>
:)
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<ertai[NP]>
Yoric[DT]: what's the problem with mllib ?
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<thelema>
Yoric[DT]: ping
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<thelema>
Yoric[DT]: bump the version number - with all the rewrites you've done, we're past 0.1
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<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: pong
<thelema>
I'm trying to work through your changes to merge the unicode stuff.
<thelema>
the unicode folder goes in batteries/src/core/unicode, no?
<Yoric[DT]>
We need to decide if UIO gets merged into IO.
<Yoric[DT]>
I think it should.
<Yoric[DT]>
In that case, unicode should probably go into src/core/extlib .
<thelema>
I tried that, but it made a circular dependency
<Yoric[DT]>
(and yes, we've effectively taken over extlib)
<Yoric[DT]>
ertai[NP]: the only problem with mllib is that I need to write the files :)
<thelema>
but if extlib isn't packed anymore, I think I can make this work.
<flux>
are the original authors of extlib still interested in maintaining it?
<thelema>
flux: from what I see on their mailing list, they're not interested in putting much work into its maintenance.
<thelema>
one idea of unicode involves duplicating *all* the string machinery with unicode-character-aware versions, so users can [open Batteries.Unicode]
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<thelema>
also, will it be an option to compile without the camomile dependency (and have batteries minus unicode)? Now that I think about this, we should just require camomile and not give that option.
<thelema>
I was designing for the optional dependency.
<Yoric[DT]>
No, I think there should be exactly two versions of the library: with threads and without threads.
<Yoric[DT]>
In my mind, everything else is compulsory.
<thelema>
I agree.
<Yoric[DT]>
Sorry, friends paying a social call.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll try and come back later.
<thelema>
ok. Thanks.
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<thelema>
note 1 : kill the core folder and move contents up a level
<thelema>
note 2: src/_tags has reference to <layer_1> ?? kill?
<thelema>
note3: there's got to be a better way to structure main module than re-importing Batteries_core module-by-module.
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<beigebox>
i can't find the answer to this question with the first few hits to google. are for loops directly supported by ocaml?
<Smerdyakov>
The manual has a complete grammar, which should answer your question. Such questions are better solved by starting from the manual table of contents than by Google searches.
<Smerdyakov>
The Parts of the manual are named somewhat unfortunately. Part II is the language reference.
<Smerdyakov>
Regardless of the answer, most functional programmers frown on loops. I suggest using higher-order functions instead.
<beigebox>
"most functional programmers frown on loops.." - why is that so btw?
<Smerdyakov>
They encourage imperative programming, which is fundamentally harder to understand than functional programming.
<Smerdyakov>
Also, it doesn't hurt to minimize the number of constructs in your language.
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<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: note1: I'm not sure.
<Yoric[DT]>
note 2: oops, you're right
<Yoric[DT]>
Note 3: I haven't found any better way yet. More precisely, I have found a better way but it requires a myocamlbuild plug-in which I haven't gotten around to implement yet.
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<beigebox>
http://pastebin.com/m4b88b313 i've wrote this code to compute a list of the first n primes. is there any way to make it more ocaml-like?
<flux>
if you hang around for 24h more hours, I'll take a look :)
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<olegfink>
Smerdyakov: does a high-order loop make sense to you?
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<olegfink>
that is, int -> (int -> unit)
<olegfink>
or something of the sort
<Smerdyakov>
olegfink, it's better for the "minimize number of language constructs" reason, but not the "avoid imperativity" reason.
<Smerdyakov>
olegfink, and, to be clear, I don't consider a use of such a function to be "a loop."
<olegfink>
I implemented one with camlp4, but failed to find a use case for it.
<olegfink>
well, something like iter, but iterating on natural numbers
<olegfink>
as ocaml doesn't have a nice sugar for generating lists, that could make some sense
<Smerdyakov>
Generating lists? What does that have to do with imperative loops?
<olegfink>
Smerdyakov: personally, the reason why I wanted to implement loop is that every time I really have to make a loop in my program I feel like a traitor. So using a more functional syntax (which is still equally imperative) helps me.
<olegfink>
because then I could do List.iter (fun i -> my imperative code) [1..10]
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<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: that's possible with Batteries Included, if you're interested.
<Yoric[DT]>
Except it's
<Yoric[DT]>
iter (fun i -> my imperative code) ( 1 -- 10 )
<olegfink>
what is the type of ( 1 -- 10 )?
<Yoric[DT]>
Enum.t
<olegfink>
so it's not a list?
<Yoric[DT]>
Nope, it's a lazy construction.
<Yoric[DT]>
Essentially, it's a stream.
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<Yoric[DT]>
hi rwmjones_
<rwmjones_>
hi Yoric[DT]
<Yoric[DT]>
How do you do?
<rwmjones_>
I still haven't reviewed those patches have I?
<Yoric[DT]>
Nope.
<olegfink>
so it doesn't have a list like constructor and functionality?
<rwmjones_>
Yoric[DT], yes, I definitely ought to ... but won't be this weekend I'm afraid
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: No, it doesn't have a list-like constructor. It can be built from a list, though.
<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones_: well, as you can imagine, we've carried on without approval from ExtLib, I'm afraid.
<Yoric[DT]>
Whenever we receive word on these patches, we'll try and send more.
<Yoric[DT]>
But for the moment, and despite everybody's wishes, Batteries is effectively a fork of ExtLib.
<Yoric[DT]>
s/is/contains/
<Yoric[DT]>
Whenever the core of Batteries reaches a stable state, this patch business might be easier to carry one. Possibly.
<rwmjones_>
Yoric[DT], sure .. I talked to the other two extlib maintainers about this & they wanted me to review them, which I didnt do, so entirely my fault
<Yoric[DT]>
I understand that people sometimes have better things to do than review my patches.
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<rwmjones_>
beigebox, did you get your question about for loops answered?
<rwmjones_>
Yoric[DT], family stuff, but yes I should look at this nxt week
<beigebox>
rwmjones_: Smerdyakov's?
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, did you get / understand the answer? if not post again
<beigebox>
yeah i'm now wondering about the pasted example - how to make it more ocaml like
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, so greatestProperDivisor is euclid's gcd algorithm? that function looks fine, perfectly "ocaml-like"
<beigebox>
rwmjones_: no it's just a hack to "iterate looking for divisors of n"
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, isPrime is fine, also "ocaml-like"
<rwmjones_>
ah ok, trial division
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, so the problem is with the genPrimes function
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, which is definitely not very ocaml-like ...
<rwmjones_>
you really want haskell-like lazy evaluation here :-)
<beigebox>
i don't know what that is ;)
<rwmjones_>
well, in haskell you'd say "take the first 10 elements of the list of all primes"
<rwmjones_>
because haskell is lazy, "list of all primes" doesn't actually get evaluated (which would take forever)
<rwmjones_>
it just generates as many as it needs until it has got the first 10
<rwmjones_>
beigebox, let me try writing this in ocaml, brb
<beigebox>
quick question... how do i access the elements of an order tuple ?
<olegfink>
ah, this page is actually the reason I thought it's in perl.
<rwmjones_>
olegfink, the perl / POE stuff is weird, but plainly simpler than writing my own IRC implementation in ocaml
<olegfink>
once I wanted to write My Very Own And The Most Suckless IRC bot (in ocaml of course), but having no irc library, well, turned me off a bit
<olegfink>
by the way, is it possible to load camlp4 stuff at run time?
<rwmjones_>
olegfink, you mean in the toplevel? yes, very definitely
<olegfink>
for example, is it possible for xavierbot to define, compile and load camlp4 extensions on the fly?
<olegfink>
yes, in toplevel
<rwmjones_>
olegfink, oh I see .. no. We would prevent that anyway because xavierbot is already using camlp4 to disable unsafe bits of ocaml
<rwmjones_>
eg. it disables the 'external' keyword
<rwmjones_>
external magic : 'a -> 'b = "%identity" ;;
<xavierbot>
'external' keyword disabled
<xavierbot>
- : unit = ()
<olegfink>
ah, but apart from security policy it is possible?
<rwmjones_>
(magic 10 : string) ;;
<xavierbot>
Characters 2-7:
<xavierbot>
(magic 10 : string) ;;
<xavierbot>
^^^^^
<xavierbot>
Unbound value magic
<rwmjones_>
olegfink, I guess it's possible, but xavierbot limits you to writing everything on a single line, and writing a camlp4 extension on a single line would be quite ambitious
<olegfink>
camlp4 is one of the funniest computer games I've ever played, but it's a bit pity that it's completely unaware of types (if I knew Haskell I would probably go for Template Haskell)
<olegfink>
heh, good point
<rwmjones_>
is Template Haskell aware of types? I didn't think it was possible
<olegfink>
I was *told* it is.
<olegfink>
I'm too dumb to understand that sort of haskell stuff.
<rwmjones_>
until you know how to parse something, I don't see how you can do any type inference
<thelema>
Yoric[DT]: ping
<olegfink>
for example, I suffer from the fact that my suspension thing is essentially a unit -> (unit -> unit) type map and I can't express this in camlp4
<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: pong
<Yoric[DT]>
rwmjones_ from what I understand, it isn't.
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: it's probably possible to write a Camlp4 with types.
<thelema>
Any response to #1, 2, or 3?
<Yoric[DT]>
And it certainly would be an important contribution to the OCaml community.
<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: Sure.
<Yoric[DT]>
1. While I believe that we may end up with some more directory rearrangements, I tend to believe that "main" and "extlib", "threads", "toolchain"... do not have the same status.
<Yoric[DT]>
So I'd rather not remove core from the directory structure.
<Yoric[DT]>
2. Oops.
<Yoric[DT]>
3. I have ideas to do better but it's complex enough that I'm not going to try this before the first release.
<olegfink>
err, I'm talking shit.
<olegfink>
it's 'a -> ('a -> unit) which now really looks like a type map
<Yoric[DT]>
4. About the naming stuff, I was thinking about not using numbers at all.
<olegfink>
Yoric[DT]: I don't really understand how is that possible
<olegfink>
what I want is probably a way to play with ocaml's type system, while camlp4 lets me do things with syntax
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: ok, that's different stuff, then.
<Yoric[DT]>
But it's probably possible to write a "staged" Camlp4. Each stage being able to take advantage of type information from code already compiled in some previous stage.
<olegfink>
hm, isn't that what metaocaml is about?
<thelema>
Yoric[DT]: I agree that main and the other groups don't have the same heirarchical status, but I don't see the utility of having an extra dir to corral the non-main stuff together.
<Yoric[DT]>
olegfink: different priorities, I think, but essentially, it's similar ideas.
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<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: threads vs. nothreads has an importance, insofar as it contains files with the same names.
<Yoric[DT]>
Oh, sorry, I misread.
<Yoric[DT]>
I agree that, for the moment, it's not important.
<olegfink>
kill me somebody, please
<olegfink>
'a -> (unit -> 'a) it is.
* Yoric[DT]
attempts to savagely murder olegfink with wet trouts.
<thelema>
yes, we should keep that, but maybe the rest of the tree sturcture could get flattened.
<thelema>
a bit. (not completely.
<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: I agree that this should be possible.
<Yoric[DT]>
For the moment, I'm still working on the build system, though, so I'm not making this a priority.
<thelema>
also, it seems that any new code is going into the extlib folder.
<olegfink>
I write a simple type map from a third attempt and yet want to discuss things like metaocaml.
<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: that may not last forever.
<thelema>
(i.e. the Labels stuff jumped there)
<Yoric[DT]>
i.e. toolchain has some contents
<Yoric[DT]>
(but yes, Labels is typically ExtLib-style stuff)
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<Yoric[DT]>
thelema: we'll need some policy regarding what goes into which directory.
<thelema>
somehow I feel that extlib (including modifications to its files) should go in extlib, and anything else in a separate folder.
<thelema>
more like sub-projects.
<thelema>
(or batteries)
<thelema>
*of batteries
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<Yoric[DT]>
Well, for the moment, things we've put in ExtLib are things which could fit as ExtLib patches.
<Yoric[DT]>
With the possible exception of Unicode, now that I think about it.
<thelema>
in the end, we'll end up with a bunch of (hopefully) focused projects that get referenced by a batteries.ml and packed into its .cma
<thelema>
I agree that the unicode ropes don't really fit as patches to extlib
<thelema>
and other things will not fit as well: any crypto we include, network stuff, etc.
<Yoric[DT]>
Agreed.
<Yoric[DT]>
The first release of Batteries is essentially beefed-up ExtLib, though.
<thelema>
speaking of release, still approx Oct 10?
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm not completely sure.
<Yoric[DT]>
I've undertaken large modifications of the build system (essentially, I'm dumping just about anything from the Makefile and putting it into myocamlbuild.ml).
<Yoric[DT]>
That's bound to break the documentation generation.
<Yoric[DT]>
That and the fact that I have a deadline on Oct 15.
<thelema>
what don't we have?
<thelema>
so we need the docs
<Yoric[DT]>
You mean missing features?
<thelema>
I have a beginning on unicode.
<Yoric[DT]>
Ideally, I'd like
<thelema>
which should be ready (again) to merge
<Yoric[DT]>
* a little more Unicode (not sure it's a small change, though, so maybe not for this release)
<thelema>
the transcoding?
<Yoric[DT]>
(yes)
<Yoric[DT]>
* type_conv
<thelema>
you want it, you got it.
<Yoric[DT]>
transcoding?
<thelema>
yes.
<Yoric[DT]>
* possibly small stuff such as Ref.Cap and other Mutable.Foo.Cap, although that can probably be added at a later stage without breaking anything.
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<Yoric[DT]>
Well, please do.
<Yoric[DT]>
By all means.
<Yoric[DT]>
ertai[NP]: ping
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<Yoric[DT]>
As for your ready-to-merge code, I'll add it as soon as I've fixed the build system.
<thelema>
Hopefully I won't have to restructure my patch again. I'm getting better with git, though...
<Yoric[DT]>
Normally, at worst, you'll have to change a _tags file.
<Yoric[DT]>
The directory structure won't change anymore, at least not for the first release.
<Yoric[DT]>
Right now, my problem is auto-generating .mllib files.
<Yoric[DT]>
To be sure that everything we need is linked into the final .cma .
<thelema>
you had a nice find script in your makefile before, that doesn't suffice anymore?
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<Yoric[DT]>
It's not foolproof.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'd like a more generic solution.
<thelema>
do you realize that you're engineering for a 2.0 release?
<Yoric[DT]>
That thought has crossed my mind, yes.
<Yoric[DT]>
You have a point, though.
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<Yoric[DT]>
I have a weird "Reference to undefined global" error.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm linking against a .cma which contains unit Batteries_core.
<Yoric[DT]>
However, I obtain Reference to undefined global `Batteries_core' .
<thelema>
I got something similar to that when extlib was both internal and external to batteries.
<Yoric[DT]>
Mmmhh...
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll take a look at that.
<thelema>
other than that, I don't see any batteries_code.mlpack
<Yoric[DT]>
There's a batteries_core.ml .
<thelema>
are you using the threads version? There's no for-pack on batteries_core_threads
<Yoric[DT]>
No, non-threaded.
<Yoric[DT]>
Let me commit the last version.
<Yoric[DT]>
committed
* thelema
pulls
<Yoric[DT]>
Oh, I'd forgotten to commit the tests.
<Yoric[DT]>
Just committed.
<thelema>
any reason to have any mllib files in version control? Don't they get generated as part of the build?
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah, now they are.
<Yoric[DT]>
For a few versions, they weren't.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll need to fix that.
<Yoric[DT]>
Mmmhh...
<Yoric[DT]>
Batteries appears twice.
<Yoric[DT]>
Well, that wasn't the problem.
<thelema>
any chance of filtering out .#*.ml from mlpacks?
<Yoric[DT]>
What do you mean?
<Yoric[DT]>
Mmmhhh....
<Yoric[DT]>
I think I found the problem.
<Yoric[DT]>
It seems to be the order of files in the .mllib .
<thelema>
the .mllib needs a topo-sort?
<Yoric[DT]>
It seems so.
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm trying to topo-sort it myself to check.
<thelema>
I'm surprised it was in order before...
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<Yoric[DT]>
Me, too.
<thelema>
emacs makes .#<filename> temp files while editing. I now have .#uIO in my batteries.mllib
<Yoric[DT]>
I'll try and do that next.
<Yoric[DT]>
Yes, the toposort was the issue.
<Yoric[DT]>
:/
<Yoric[DT]>
Which means that I'll have to toposort the .mllib anyway.
<Yoric[DT]>
Which means that I'll have to resume work on auto-generating it from OCaml.
<thelema>
I guess there just wasn't enough testing.
<thelema>
to find the toposort errors
<Yoric[DT]>
Yeah.
<Yoric[DT]>
Good that we did some more :)
* thelema
wants to merge code from jane street's core
<Yoric[DT]>
As always, I'd rather depend on the code than merge it.
<Yoric[DT]>
But yes, some of Core's modules are definitely going to make their way into Batteries.
<Yoric[DT]>
My first priority being type_conv.
<thelema>
no META in core. :(
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<thelema>
I take that back, it does use ocamlfind.
<Yoric[DT]>
Yep.
<Yoric[DT]>
At least the GODI version does.
<thelema>
it seems to depend on sexplib, type-conv and bin_prot
<Yoric[DT]>
Yep.
<Yoric[DT]>
All three of these are worthy nominees, too.
<thelema>
If we're depending on external code, where's the editorial process? We're going to end up with n versions of List.fold_right
<Yoric[DT]>
We're not going to give access to every version of List.fold_right .
<Yoric[DT]>
I'm going to have to leave now.
<thelema>
bye
<Yoric[DT]>
'night
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<palomer>
module Entry = Entry <--what could this possibly do?
<palomer>
Module GtkEditProps.Entry <--where is this module located??
<palomer>
can't find it anywhere
<thelema>
Palace_Chan: if some other module was opened, that module's Entry gets imported into the current namespace (accessible by other modules there)
<thelema>
grr...
<thelema>
palomer: see above
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<thelema>
palomer: GtkEditProps.Entry is in gtkEditProps.ml
<flux>
olegfink, iirc savonet project has an irc module for ocaml
<palomer>
but I want to start it when the entry gets focused
<palomer>
how do I do that?
<thelema>
I imagine you'll have to dig through the widget source (in GTK) to find the completion hook and somehow duplicate that action in ocaml on_focus
<thelema>
it looks like there's an 'activate' signal
<thelema>
look at the source of gtk_entry_set_completion
<palomer>
entry#activate?
<palomer>
that's when you press enter
<thelema>
sorry, not activate
<palomer>
focus_in ?
<palomer>
thelema, wouldn't it simply be easier to trigger the entry#changed signal?
<thelema>
gtk_entry_set_completion should hook the user's keypress
<thelema>
does that work?
<palomer>
it hooks entry#changed
<palomer>
I believe
<palomer>
since pressing left/right doesn't trigger the completion
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