flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | Grab OCaml 3.10.2 from http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/release.html (featuring new camlp4 and more!)
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<haskellian> id i want to create a new syntax, like [1,3..10] -> [1,3,5,7,9] do I have to do that "outside" the langage then? or is there some macro-like functiona la lisp?
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<tsuyoshi> there's a preprocessor, camlp4
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<palomer> werp
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<palomer> hello
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<Palace_Chan> I'm trying to use these instructions: http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-3.10/notes/INSTALL to get OCaml installed, and somebody told me that if i didnt want to scatter files around my machine that aren't under the control of the package manager i should use the -prefix option to the configure script..but with default args ?
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<thelema> Palace_Chan: what distro?
<Palace_Chan> ubuntu
<Palace_Chan> hardy
<thelema> why not use the compiled 3.10 for hardy?
<Palace_Chan> thelema, the one directly from the package manager ? If i'm not mistaken i believe it is not version 3.10.2 which i am being asked for in my course
<thelema> ah, ok. Then yes, use ./configure -prefix=(whatever your prefix)
<Palace_Chan> thelema, oh but the "whatever your prefix" part is the one im not sure of
<Palace_Chan> the default appears to be /usr/local
<Palace_Chan> i wonder if that is ok
<thelema> well, my local build of ocaml has prefix /home/thelema/bin/ocaml
<thelema> so it lives in my home dir
<Palace_Chan> thelema, and for you to have done that you just ran the ./config scrip FROM your home directory
<Palace_Chan> or i mean, you would have if you had installed it like this
<thelema> umm, I ran the configure script from the ocaml source directory
<Palace_Chan> with -prefix /home/thelema/bin/ocaml
<thelema> I don't think it matters where the ocaml source sits when you compile it.
<Palace_Chan> so the website gives you a tar.gz which you untar into some directory of choice and then from there run ./config ?
<thelema> yes
<Palace_Chan> does the -prefix arg have to be a subdirectory of the directory in which you run ./config ?
<thelema> no
<Palace_Chan> and for "not scatter files around machine not under control of package manager" do you think that means i am looking to -prefix with a specific packager directory or just to know myself what directory will hold those contents ?
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<thelema> ?? no, -prefix will contain the install to subdirs of whatever dir you give it. You'll have to put the bin dir in your path
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: i've done some ground work for the "openin" integration
<bluestorm> however, it seems i checked the SVN as anonymous, so can't commit right now (svn: Authorization failed) : what is the right way to checkout the repo with commit rights ?
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<bluestorm> (i use svn twice a year so the beginning is always a bit difficult)
<Yoric[DT]> svn checkout svn+ssh://developername@svn.forge.ocamlcore.org/svnroot/batteries
<bluestorm> thanks
<Yoric[DT]> my pleasure
<Yoric[DT]> I think I've mostly solved my problems with ocamldoc.
<Yoric[DT]> Hopefully, by the end of the day, we'll have some actual working documentation.
<bluestorm> :]
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> seems the "syntax" dir is gone
<bluestorm> where do you think we should put it ?
<Yoric[DT]> I've had some problems with the svn.
<Yoric[DT]> So I may have removed things accidentally.
<bluestorm> it was in trunk/syntax, but trunk/batteries/syntax may be a better place
<Yoric[DT]> Problems are now fixed, I just hope we haven't lost anything.
<Yoric[DT]> I concur.
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: i just commited, pa_openin plus some _tag files and such
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<bluestorm> however, i don't know how to write makefile's, so i've kept plain simple shell scripts
<bluestorm> -'
<bluestorm> moreover, my upstream.txt file (from the previous osr_camlp4 attempt) is dangerously alike your .spec format (is it specified somewhere ?), i could probably convert it
<Yoric[DT]> .spec is godi format
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: as for the Makefile, I'll take a look at your script.
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<Yoric[DT]> mmmmmhhhh.....
* Yoric[DT] is starting to believe that it's not possible to inspect the contents of a .ml from ocamldoc when the .mli is available.
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: once the packaging is settled, i'll be able to import other extensions from osr_camlp4 easily
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<bluestorm> you were speaking about _tags
<bluestorm> do you think we could create an ocamlbuild configuration module to handle the syntax extensions specifically ?
<bluestorm> we can use pkg_batsynax.extension.syntax right now, but that may be a bit complicated
<Yoric[DT]> mmmhhhh...
<Yoric[DT]> I must admit I was thinking along the lines of [pkg_batteries] activating "standard" syntax extensions.
<Yoric[DT]> And I hadn't given much thought about not-so-standard extensions.
<bluestorm> well we can play with the packaging for that
<bluestorm> right now i have a pkg_batsyntax.syntax activating all the extensions at once
<bluestorm> we might have a pkg_batsyntax.syntax_full, and keep the usual and accepted ones into syntax (with still the ability to cherry-pick with batsyntax.extension.syntax)
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: another thing
<bluestorm> there was a doc/ directory with a nice .pdf
<Yoric[DT]> I think that moved into branches/
<bluestorm> would it be possible to make the .tex available ? it would be easier to keep it up-to-date (and generally putting the sources in the repository is a good idea)
<Yoric[DT]> mmmhhh.... obviously, I was wrong
<Yoric[DT]> Ok
<Yoric[DT]> Do you remember the name of the document?
<bluestorm> hm
<bluestorm> "program.pdf" iirc
<Yoric[DT]> Ah, got it.
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<Yoric[DT]> I'll try and find the source.
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: can't you group all the syntax extensions inside one .cma?
<Yoric[DT]> I also suggest putting the tests somewhere else.
<bluestorm> ok
<Yoric[DT]> Hopefully, the current version of my documentation generator should generate the correct contents.
<Yoric[DT]> If so, I'll just need a few tweaks to get it to only show the modules I want in the index (i.e. not the internal modules).
<Yoric[DT]> And a few appearance tweaks.
<bluestorm> i could probably group them somewhere; i thought the ocamlfind-level grouping was enough, but it's true that if you don't want to use ocamlfind it's not so easy to use anoymore
<Yoric[DT]> What do you mean?
<Yoric[DT]> And we'll be able to release a new version of the documentation :)
<bluestorm> well i intend ocamlfind -package batsyntax.syntax to be equivalent to the inclusion of all syntax extensions at once
<Yoric[DT]> Yeah, it works.
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<bluestorm> (or possibly, two level of "grouping", .syntax and .syntax_full, to have a happy few common extensions easily reachable without too much bloat)
<bluestorm> wich tests were you speaking about ? the test/ repertory (wich was more a testbed for the _tags and we could probably get rid of it), or the test.ml files ?
<Yoric[DT]> test.ml
<bluestorm> actually, for now they serve both at test (though manual testing only, there isn't any automatic mechanism) and kinda-documentation
<Yoric[DT]> Still, I suggest putting them somewhere else.
<bluestorm> ok
<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: you should move things around as you see fit, and i'll reproduce the pattern for the next included extensions
<Yoric[DT]> ok
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<psnively> Hello Camlers. :-)
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<Yoric[DT]> Hello psnively
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: I'm wondering if we're on the right track, there.
<Yoric[DT]> Perhaps we should rather turn these syntax extensions into godi packages.
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<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: in the current state of affairs, they're ocamlfind package, wich is, like, the next best thing before godi
<Yoric[DT]> What I mean is not including them in Batteries.
<Yoric[DT]> Just depending on them.
<bluestorm> and i don't know how to make godi packages
<Yoric[DT]> That's trivial.
<Yoric[DT]> see .spec :)
<bluestorm> well, so that would probably be a good idea
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* Yoric[DT] is currently adding nice frames to the ocamldoc generator.
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<hcarty> Yoric[DT]: You have a trivial way to make godi packages? That's wonderful news.
<hcarty> The last time I read the documentation on the web site it seemed like a large amount of work
<Yoric[DT]> hcarty: well, I've made one and it was rather simple.
<Yoric[DT]> I may have missed something, of course.
<Yoric[DT]> But it was essentially the matter of writing a simple Makefile to serve as glue between ocamlbuild and ocamlfind.
<Yoric[DT]> That and a description file.
<Yoric[DT]> Now, I may be wrong, of course.
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<hcarty> Yoric[DT]: If it works even just enough for basic package creation then it is a good example to have
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<Yoric[DT]> Okay, the new documentation seems to work.
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<Yoric[DT]> bluestorm: what's the upload process at the moment?
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<flux> tsuyoshi, heh, it appears one plugin is using audio buffer for dynamic memory allocations..
<flux> (iriverify.c)
<flux> but I suppose that's not feasible if the ocaml plugin in question would like to play audio also :)
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<flux> many of the plugins appear to be riddled with ifdefs..
<bluestorm> Yoric[DT]: scp
<bluestorm> iirc it's in /home/groups/batteries/htdocs/doc
<bluestorm> yes it is
<bluestorm> .../doc/batteries-0.docdir
<Yoric[DT]> ok
<Yoric[DT]> Thanks.
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<Palace_Chan> following the ins. on http://caml.inria.fr/pub/distrib/ocaml-3.10/notes/INSTALL to set up OCaml on my platform, there is a step which reads:
<Palace_Chan> From the top directory, become superuser and do:
<Palace_Chan> umask 022 # make sure to give read & execute permission to all
<Palace_Chan> make install
<Palace_Chan> In the ocamlbuild setting instead of make install do:
<Palace_Chan> ./build/install.sh
<Palace_Chan> oh sorry for the copy paste
<Palace_Chan> i just don't want to make a mistake at this point
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Have you tried GODI?
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, Not really, but this is the final step in the installation of this and is, i believe, all i need for now
<Palace_Chan> i just don't get the "In the ocamlbuild setting instead of make install do: ./build/install.sh"
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: GODI is a very nice tool for building OCaml and several related tools and libraries
* Yoric[DT] concurs with hcarty.
<hcarty> I highly recommend it if you aren't using your distribution's packages
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<hcarty> (Assuming you are on some form of Linux or perhaps OSX)
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, yes i am not using my distros packages because i am asked to use version 3.10.2
<Palace_Chan> and ubuntu distro is at 3.10.08 i believe
<flux> is there an easy way from godi-packages to other packaging formats, such as debs and rpms?
<Camarade_Tux> flux, I don't think so as godi is using sources
<yziquel> debian is at 3.10.2. sort of surprised that ubuntu isn't.
<Palace_Chan> i later have to get omake
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Then I definitely would recommend using GODI. I am under Ubuntu, with everything installed under $HOME and it works very well
<Palace_Chan> which i hear is good to go right off the package manager on ubuntu
<Camarade_Tux> Palace_Chan, then godi
<flux> camarade_tux, yes, I meant that for generating for example deb source packages
<flux> which basically are packages with a debian/rules and other related files
<hcarty> yziquel: OCaml is, sadly, not very well maintained in Ubuntu at this point
<flux> so there could be a generic debian/rules for all godi packages
<Palace_Chan> i did this already though i selected a -prefix directory so i could clean my system from this
<yziquel> hcarty: ok...
<hcarty> yziquel: Though you could probably rebuild the source packages from Lenny or Sid easily enough
<hcarty> "you" being me or anyone else
<Palace_Chan> in other words this is not under control of my package manager however to backtrack i would just need to remove the top directory from which i built ocaml and the -prefix directory with my man, binaris, and that
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: That is true
<Palace_Chan> lenny has the latest version, also intrepid repository
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: But GODI provides other advantages over building OCaml by hand
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Either way will allow you to have a basic OCaml installation though
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, right, thanks for the heads up as i will turn to GODI if this doesnt work, im just at the final step though
<Camarade_Tux> then just do as the INSTALL file said
<Camarade_Tux> Palace_Chan, btw I'm a slackware user and usually build _everything_ by hand, except ocaml and I'm using godi for this
<Palace_Chan> Camarade_Tux, so, did you get godi off a package manager perse ?
<Camarade_Tux> no, downloaded from godi.camlcity.org
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: GODI is a package manager for OCaml
<Camarade_Tux> flux, hum, getting lost, as I just said, I'm not using debian or even a system with rpms, or with dependancies so ...
<Palace_Chan> thanks, so i always have that option
<Palace_Chan> the only step on the manual build i would like to ask about is: make install
<Palace_Chan> In the ocamlbuild setting instead of make install do:
<Palace_Chan> ./build/install.sh
<Palace_Chan> it's the wording, it says "instead of make install" right after make install..
<Camarade_Tux> it depends on how you compiled ocaml : did you use "make world" ?
<Palace_Chan> yes
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<Camarade_Tux> so it's the part with "make install"
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<Palace_Chan> Camarade_Tux, so then the ocamlbuild setting part is if i had done the ./build/fastworld.sh
<Camarade_Tux> yes
* Camarade_Tux finds the hardest part in making bindings to C++ programs is not writing C++ bindings but actually understanding the C++ source 0_o
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<Palace_Chan> whoa on the step of "become superuser and do: umask 022 then make install" i did: sudo umask 022, prompted me for password and then said "sudo: umaks: command not found"
<Palace_Chan> what could that be ?
<Camarade_Tux> umask
<Camarade_Tux> you made a typo ;p
<Palace_Chan> oh gosh :( im way off
<Palace_Chan> thanks
<Camarade_Tux> np, I can make much bigger typos and not notice them during hours ;)
<Palace_Chan> whoa, i did it again with "sudo umask 022" and copy paste to make sure no typos: sudo: umask: command not found
<Palace_Chan> although if i do: umask 022 with no sudo nothing happens
* Camarade_Tux can't say a thing, he's always running as root (yes, there's a reason)
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: The instructions are telling you to switch to root, then run those two commands
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: so "sudo su" followed by the commands
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, oops so running them with sudo isnt equivalent to switching to root ?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: In this case, I don't think it would be
<Palace_Chan> interesting let me give that a try
<Palace_Chan> wonder if i can get out of superuser mode to run the make clean in the end (i dont like running in root mode all the time out of fear ill screw something up...)
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: You should be able to
<hcarty> Though make clean isn't really needed
<hcarty> Where prefix are you installing under?
<hcarty> s/Where/What/
* Camarade_Tux really thinks C++ rocks as the most unreadable language, worst than whitespace
<Palace_Chan> /home/palace/ocaml
<Palace_Chan> i made a directory for it
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Then you don't need su or sudo
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<hcarty> Palace_Chan: You probably shouldn't do the installation as root if you are installing in your home directory
<Palace_Chan> yea, ok i suppose i finished this, i did the emacs make install step too i wonder if that sets up the so called tuareg-mode or ocaml-mode or something like that all it says is "OCaml editing mode and interface for debugger"
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, yea i used root only for the umask two steps
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Thaose two steps are the installation
<hcarty> s/Thaose/Those/
<Palace_Chan> :(
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: It's not a huge problem
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, but what is the 'problem' ?
<hcarty> It just makes it more difficult to work with later
<hcarty> You now have files own by root in your home directory
<Palace_Chan> because i have to become root for some things ?
<Palace_Chan> ah i remember back when i had feisty on another machine i suffered from a lot of root ownership on my home dir
<Palace_Chan> any commonly used files like maybe config files now root ?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: You can either leave it as-is, or remove the installation prefix and run "make install" again as your user rather than as root
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Everything under /home/palace/ocaml installed by "make install" is likely now owned by root
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, so binaries, libs and that...hmm that might be a problem
<Palace_Chan> but would i have to start all the way from ./config in the process to recreate the -prefix direcotry (step 1 of all the process)
<Yoric[DT]> 'night everyone
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<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Did you run "make clean" yet?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Or anything else in the OCaml source directory after running "make install"?
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<hcarty> Palace_Chan: If not, then all you would have to re-run is "make install"
<hcarty> And you shouldn't have to worry about any umask settings
<Palace_Chan> i did run make clean
<Palace_Chan> from the top directory
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Then you would most likely have to run most, if not all, of the steps again
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, ugh, i guess ill just stick to as is
<Palace_Chan> i mean you said it's not a big problem
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Another option would be to change all of the installed files so that they are owned by your user
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: It shouldn't be a big problem no
<Palace_Chan> right isnt that an easy chmod thing ?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: chmod -R myuser.myuser *
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: From the installation prefix
<Palace_Chan> yes i just went to my prefix directory and ran ls -l
<Palace_Chan> and root owns bin, lib, and man directories
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Actually you would need "sudo chmod -R myuser.myuser *"
<Palace_Chan> what is the -R for ?
<hcarty> Since the files are presently owned by root
<hcarty> "R"ecursive
<hcarty> Otherwise it would only affect the bin, lib and man directories but nothing underneath
<Palace_Chan> so from within the prefix directory..would that effect be trasnmitted through into the bin,lib, and man directories too ?
<Palace_Chan> ah i see, the -R is to dig into them too
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<Palace_Chan> hcarty, would'nt i want to use chown maybe ?
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<Palace_Chan> hcarty, i just realized that apparently i have to work off the bin directory and run things like ./ocaml for the toploop is that normal ?
<Palace_Chan> i've seen in other terminals that anywhere in bash you can just type ocaml and itll start the interactive top loop
<psnively> Is it on your $PATH?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Yes yes, chown sorry
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<Palace_Chan> psnively, probably not, but even then i guess ocamlc and all such tools would have to be in my path
<psnively> Yep.
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Just add $prefix/bin to your path
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, so add the full bin directory to my path ?
<Palace_Chan> guess i have to do that in the .bashrc file if i want it to be preserved
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<hcarty> Palace_Chan: If you are using bash for your shell, then "export PATH=/path/to/install/bin:$PATH"
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: And yes you would have to add it to your bashrc
<hcarty> For persistence
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, why the export ? i thought i would add to the .bashrc: "PATH=$PATH:/home/palace/ocaml/bin"
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: For .bashrc that is correct
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: If you want to have it set in an existing, pre-bashrc-update session then you would need the export command
<hcarty> Actually... no, you likely still need to export PATH
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, i do ?
<Palace_Chan> so then what would the line look like in .bashrc
<hcarty> export PATH=$PATH:/home/palace/ocaml/bin
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, oh same thing just with export
<Proteus_> is anyone from the ocaml-java project in here?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: Yes
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, k let me give it a try
<Palace_Chan> argh it didnt work
<Palace_Chan> ohw ait
<Palace_Chan> got it, a typo again
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: You can also install rlwrap (sudo apt-get install rlwrap) and use it to make working with the ocaml toplevel much nicer
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, my emacs still opens .ml files in BS mode (DOS mode)...can i safely get ocaml-mode from my package manager without conflicting with my build right now ?
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<Palace_Chan> rlwrap ? what does that do ?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: rlwrap allows you to edit things you type like you can at the bash prompt
<Palace_Chan> cool
<hcarty> Without it or a similar tool, ocaml does not allow using the arrow keys or similar to move around or see previous commands
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<Palace_Chan> so after this manual build i did from INRIA is it safe to get ocaml-mode or tuareg-mode for emacs ?
<hcarty> Regarding emacs, I'm not sure - those packages may require OCaml
<Palace_Chan> hmm
<hcarty> You can try
<Palace_Chan> i guess ill try
<haskellian> http://hpaste.org/10142 why is my scanl returning a functin and not the accumulated list?
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<hcarty> haskellian: Because it takes 4 arguments and you gave it 3?
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: It looks like tuareg-mode, at least, has ocaml as a dependency
<hcarty> Palace_Chan: You can download it from http://www-rocq.inria.fr/~acohen/tuareg/ and do the installation manually in your home directory. Instructions are in the download.
<Palace_Chan> hcarty, yep i guess
<haskellian> duh :) thought it would complaing then
<hcarty> haskellian: Why should it complain?
<haskellian> 3 args instead of 4? anyway is there a tailrecursive way to accumulate with which I dont have to reverse the lsit before returning it?
<haskellian> anyway: a tailrecursive function, last thing it does is return this func is not tail recursive:http://hpaste.org/10143 but it doesnt grow the stack does it?
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<Myoma> haskellian: this isn't haskell
<Myoma> non tail calls must build up stack
<Smerdyakov> What does "this isn't haskell" have to do with it?
<haskellian> it has to in haskell too no? but waht i am wondering is if i do the reverse-list call on the end, does that make it grow the stack?
<Myoma> Smerdyakov: Somone used to haskell might assume ocaml works similarly
<Smerdyakov> Myoma, I don't understand what difference you're alluding to.
<Myoma> lazy vs. strict evaluation
<Smerdyakov> How does that come into play here?
<Myoma> Smerdyakov: since 'haskellian' might have prior experience with lazy evaluation and have a different intuition than required for thinking about ocaml code ...
<Smerdyakov> Do you have any reason to believe that is happening in this case?
<Myoma> I thought it was probable
<Myoma> Smerdyakov: Was it a really cruel thing to say or something? I am not sure what you're getting at
<Smerdyakov> It just seems completely unrelated to the conversation.
<haskellian> well could someone elngighten me about the reverse-scanl-thing?
<Myoma> wouldn't you rather figure it out ?
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<haskellian> i cant
<haskellian> anyway is there some apply function?
<haskellian> ah wait see i dont have to write apply even
<haskellian> oh well this is prettier bu t not trec:
<haskellian> let rec scanl func id list =
<haskellian> match list with
<haskellian> | (x::xs) -> (func id x) :: (scanl func (func id x) xs)
<haskellian> | [] -> [] ;;
<Proteus_> I'm interested in modifying the ocaml-java project to get ocaml running on the dalvik JVM being used in the new android platform for phones. The thing is, Dalvik is a stripped down VM and I'm not sure if it's even possible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_virtual_machine however, if it is possible and people are interested it'd be pretty great to have ocaml as the only other option to java on these phones.
<Proteus_> thoughts?
<haskellian> very nice, i lack the knowledge though
<haskellian> i am doing an app for android(in java duh) though
<haskellian> any news on when the first ones ship?
<Proteus_> the HTC Dream comes out in a few months
<Proteus_> I think
<Proteus_> then t-mobile and samsung are releasing phones early next year
<Proteus_> I'm relearning java just to write some android apps. I'd really consider writting iphone apps if apple released their sdk for non apple platforms. In either case, I'd rather be writing ocaml code than java or objective-c
<haskellian> i thought samsung used symbian, didnt they ever or they have changed?
<Proteus_> I think you're right
<Proteus_> look up the Open Hanset Alliance and the list of their members
<Proteus_> samsung is on it
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<haskellian> true, they owned a part of symbian before nokia bought up everything, guess they changed since then
<haskellian> symbian is microkernerl though, brings back that old debate a little
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<haskellian> hmm motorola also joined
<Proteus_> So yeah, I'd love to get ocaml running on dalvik but I don't have the skills necessary to do it myself
<psnively> Dalvik?
<Proteus_> the jvm that android uses. android being google's open source mobile phone software
<psnively> Ah.
<psnively> Seems like it'd be better to target OCaml to a specific (C) mobile API, like Symbian, to me.
<Proteus_> android is for smart phones, designed to compete with the iphone, which will have sold 10 million units by the end of the year
<Proteus_> android has support for playing movies and opengl
<Proteus_> I don't think symbian even has a smart phone yet
<psnively> Yeah. But if the only way to develop for it is to target a non-Java ME VM, I question how far it will go.
<Proteus_> it compiles regular java se code
<Proteus_> how far do you think the iphone will go when the only way to develop for it is with objective-c?
<psnively> I guess my point was "If the only way to target it is from Java..."
<Proteus_> there's already an ocaml-java project
<psnively> Well, that already isn't the only way to target it.
<psnively> Ocaml-Java performance is, predictably, abysmal.
<haskellian> The most common operating systems (OS) used in smartphones are:
<haskellian> Symbian OS from Symbian Ltd. (65% Market Share Sales Q4 2007)
<Proteus_> symbian is rapidly losing marketshare
<Proteus_> yeah, I know
<psnively> I just think that a successful smartphone API is going to have to be essentially a C interface.
<haskellian> how come? i thought it was really good? and it is open source now or soon
<haskellian> what is it loosing to then? it still has a majorit of the market...
<psnively> Even the iPhone API being in Objective-C doesn't hurt that much--it just means that you have to have some means of locating and invoking methods through the Objective-C metadata.
<Proteus_> they want the security of managed code
<psnively> And why doesn't Apple, I wonder?
<Proteus_> plus, the point is to have a totally open platform. The android appstore is built around the philosophy of youtube
<psnively> Anyone can develop for the iPhone, so that's a red herring.
<Proteus_> you have to have a mac system to use the sdk, which is why I'm stuck with android anyway
<psnively> Don't get me wrong; I'd love to have OCaml on mobile devices. I just want REAL OCaml, not warmed-over OCaml.
<Proteus_> well, of course
<psnively> Granted the SDK isn't portable. That hardly qualifies as a show-stopper. Consider what you have to do to develop for the XBOX-360 or PlayStation 3.
<Proteus_> all show stoppers for _me_
* psnively shrugs.
<psnively> Are you telling me you can't find a Mac mini on eBay? :-D
<Proteus_> I'm a poor college student
<Proteus_> I treat myself to a fresh mango now and then
<psnively> Ah so desu ka. Gotcha.
<psnively> Android rocks. :-D
<psnively> So yeah. Maybe OCaml-Java is the short(est) path (for now). I just have a tough time imagining that it'd actually be usable.
<Proteus_> I'm hoping that by jumping on an open platform like android with some cool apps, I'll get enough money to afford.... well, 'things' - like an osx system to rewrite my apps for the iphone
<psnively> Yep. Leverage, baby.
<psnively> It makes perfect sense.
<Proteus_> I'm hoping to maybe sell some minigames made from free parts like Ogre3d, bullet, OpenAL, etc. on Steam or something. I haven't figured out how to actually get a game on there though. I'm hoping to write large parts in ocaml.
<psnively> Hmmm. We should talk more. I've been thinking about games in OCaml for some time, and I've done some work on adding functionality to LablGL and kind of kept OCaml-SDL running on Mac OS X.
<psnively> Personally I'm slightly more drawn to http://horde3d.org than http://ogre3d.org, but meh. Both seem like fine engines. Totally agree re: Bullet Physics!
<Proteus_> I'm still new to it all. I'm hoping to experiment with what would become major subsystems on a pc game inside little android apps
<psnively> I think that's a great idea, and again, Ogre3D is an awesome engine. Don't let me distract you. :-)
<Proteus_> I'm really interested in procedurally genereated geometry, music, etc.
<psnively> Wow. OCaml-Java is a lot more robust than I realized. I just ran the toplevel in my browser. That's... weird. LOL
<Proteus_> I don't really care what renders things as long as it's fast and it works
<Proteus_> hahaha, yeah.
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<Proteus_> and it's not unusably slow
<psnively> Well, yeah, on all the devices you care about you'll basically be dealing with OpenGL ES with some level of hardware support.
<psnively> Yeah, hmmmmm. I'll have to come up with some code to throw at it.
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<Proteus_> I was talking about ogre3d verses horde
<psnively> Right. My point was that both ultimately talk to OpenGL (ES?), and on mobile devices you'll be a lot more concerned with the hardware than which engine you're using (probably).
<psnively> So yeah, you get to worry about other factors: community, documentation, sample code, etc.
<psnively> To a first approximation, both "work" and are "fast."
<Proteus_> my impression was that ogre has a better community
<psnively> That certainly seems to be the case today.
<psnively> Horde3D seems to be a bit leaner and meaner, but also newer, less well-documented, and (at the moment) harder to build on Mac OS X.
<psnively> At least that's my impression at the moment.
<Proteus_> ogre has solid python, lua support thanks to SWIG - I've been wondering if SWIG could make a good ocaml binding
<psnively> So hmmmmm... OCaml-Java to Java to Android...