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<tsuyoshi>
got the cross compiler working
<tsuyoshi>
the ocaml makefiles are nuts.. I had to manually edit every single one to get it working
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<batcoder-7>
hey anyone up ?
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<flux>
tsuyoshi, wish someone integrated the changes into the distribution.. <hint hint> ;)
<flux>
(I compiled that once too, but the changes were hackish and probably lost by now)
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<tsuyoshi>
well.. I'm gonna make a debian package and release it
<tsuyoshi>
not sure if I can sustain enough interest to actually fix the makefiles
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<tsuyoshi>
the compiler is the easy part.. next I want to make packages for gtk and lablgtk
<tsuyoshi>
gtk for windows does not even build without manual intervention.. so I'm gonna have to fix that
<flux>
has anyone given a try to rocketboost, especially on windows?
<tsuyoshi>
what is rocketboost
<gildor>
tsuyoshi: rocketboost = new version of godi
<tsuyoshi>
I see.. never actually used godi
<tsuyoshi>
hrm.. gtk uses libtool
<tsuyoshi>
and libtool doesn't seem to work properly on windows
<tsuyoshi>
of course it doesn't work properly on anything
<tsuyoshi>
I actually don't see the point of shared libraries on windows
<tsuyoshi>
they don't share memory, so all you really save is disk space
<batcoder-7>
is ocaml bytecode reversible ?
<flux>
reversible as in there are java decompilers? I think it is possible, although you will obviously lose a lot of things. for example, ocaml has no reflection capabilities, so all name and type definition information would be lost.
<flux>
actually now that I think of it a bit more, it could turn out to be a big task to do that properly..
<flux>
without the end result using Obj.magic that is
<flux>
for example if there are two isomorphic functions, how would it know that the other can only accept values of type a and the other of type b..
<batcoder-7>
im saying if i distribute an app in ocaml i wonder if i have to worry about it becoming reversed ;)
<flux>
you can already dump the resulting byte code with ocamldumpobj
<flux>
if you compile to native binary, I think the problem greatly increases
<flux>
in principle you can decompile any binary anyway. but not in practice :)
<batcoder-7>
i am doing a web app and a daemon
<batcoder-7>
can you do web in ocaml ok ?
<flux>
sure
<flux>
I've only played around with it, though
<flux>
(with web-programming and ocaml that is)
<flux>
I may have used ocsigen for that
<batcoder-7>
do you do it in bytecod form ?
<batcoder-7>
or native ?
<flux>
well, I didn't really deploy it, so I used bytecode as it's faster to compile etc
<flux>
it wouldn't have mattered anyway
<batcoder-7>
can you do native ?
<flux>
it's a matter of changing ocamlc to ocamlopt when compiling
<flux>
(basically)
<batcoder-7>
i mean can you do native when doing web like is there a library so that it handles with the webserver ok etc ?
<flux>
I don't see why ocsigen wouldn't work as native as well as byte code
<flux>
I think I used ocamlnet
<flux>
it has module nethttpd
<batcoder-7>
yes
<batcoder-7>
a FCGI module as well
<batcoder-7>
and btw i know this is a stupid thing and i hate benchmarks but why does ocaml keep getitng moved down and down on the debain shootout ;) someone get on there an optimize it
<flux>
perhaps people have found some more constructive things to do than optimizing benchmarks ;)
<batcoder-7>
yea itsstill very fast even in its current position
<batcoder-7>
well i need to do a web app and a small daemon style app
<batcoder-7>
i think i will do it in ocaml
<flux>
happy hacking
<batcoder-7>
since it will be distributed and cant be distributed in open source
<batcoder-7>
i would like too but my boss feels if distributed in open source no one will pay for the license
<batcoder-7>
which i guess since there is bills to pay he might have a point
<batcoder-7>
wow ocaml has quite a few web frameworks
<flux>
what kind of application will you be writing, if you don't mind?
<batcoder-7>
a app to manage dns and mail servers
<batcoder-7>
when i mean manage add delete entires for both
<flux>
ok
<batcoder-7>
but important thing here is for it to be secure light and a good implmentation
<flux>
for that I think ocaml is a great answer
<batcoder-7>
accordign to alot of people i should do the web part in like PHP or something, casue of there super cool frameworks, but i really tink the framework stuff is over rated, if you knwo the language good you can code fast is the way i look at it
<batcoder-7>
typos*
<tsuyoshi>
iirc ocsigen needs dynamic linking
<flux>
really? cannot be used statically?
<tsuyoshi>
so for native compilation you need the natdynlink cvs branch
<batcoder-7>
i mean is execution time pretty good ?
<batcoder-7>
or does this thing add *alot* of overhead nadm ake it as slow as php ?
<batcoder-7>
not that it matters
<tsuyoshi>
the execution time of ocsigen?
<flux>
what tsuyoshi means that if you now need dynamic linking, you will also need bytecode
<flux>
perhaps?
<flux>
and bytecode is easier (but not very easy still..) to reverse-engineer than native
<tsuyoshi>
yeah.. until the next release anyway
<flux>
and the next release should be within a few months, or how was it?
<tsuyoshi>
next release of ocaml is supposed to have native dynamic linking support
<tsuyoshi>
I think xavier said he was aiming for august
<batcoder-7>
os what ocaml or the web thing ?
<flux>
batcoder-7, tsuyoshi is talking about ocaml
<batcoder-7>
oh
<batcoder-7>
what are they adding ?
<batcoder-7>
./ improvong
<flux>
I suppose linking in natively compiled code in runtime is one of the more exciting features
<tsuyoshi>
the dynamic linking is upposed to be the big thing.. there's also a fix for memory allocation problems on amd64
<flux>
I suppose the feature basically eliminates the need for byte code compilation (unless you want things like cross-platform binaries or fast compilation times)
<batcoder-7>
real support for 64 bit ?
<tsuyoshi>
batcoder-7: ocsigen is supposed to be pretty fact but I haven't used ti yet
<tsuyoshi>
pretty fast
<tsuyoshi>
well we've already had 64 bit support for a while now
<flux>
batcoder-7, 64 bit is supported, but there are atleast problems with fedora and its address space randomization
<tsuyoshi>
there's just certain cases where the memory allocation patterns screw up with the ocaml page table scheme
<batcoder-7>
how aout i686 ?
<batcoder-7>
about*
<tsuyoshi>
it actually happens even without address space randomization sometimes
<batcoder-7>
ocaml just compile for i484 right ?
<batcoder-7>
man typos i486
<tsuyoshi>
no
<batcoder-7>
i meant compiles native exe's for
<tsuyoshi>
it supports x86, amd64, ia64, ppc, sparc
<batcoder-7>
does it get the benefits of 64 bit ?
<tsuyoshi>
there is unmaintained code for compiling to m68k and arm
<tsuyoshi>
yes.. ocaml was actually originally implemented on a 64 bit processor
<batcoder-7>
o wow
<batcoder-7>
i talk to alot of people many are not too positive about ocaml but i like it
<batcoder-7>
its been around for a whiile and i dont think its going anywhere
<batcoder-7>
many people call it an edicational language and leave it at that
<tsuyoshi>
I don't really agree with that.. I mean it's not as popular as java or ruby, but a lot of people are using it in commercial settings
<batcoder-7>
yea maybe i was talking to the wrong people ;)
<tsuyoshi>
I think it gets more practical use than most educational languages
<batcoder-7>
the fact that is can be interpreted bytecode and natively compiled makes it superior to any of those other languages
<batcoder-7>
esp. ruby :P
<batcoder-7>
i wonder if they still care about making optimizations to increase speed etc
<batcoder-7>
well i guess they do, most likely not there biggest priority though hmm
<batcoder-7>
tsuyoshi: is there ocaml for embedded systems ?
<flux>
hmm.. I wonder why the dynamic linking support we now have couldn't be used for, well, dynamically linking the libraries? it could help with the "large binary" problem embedded platforms can face
<flux>
I'm not sure if garbage collected environments are a good match to embedded platforms
<batcoder-7>
is the GC is ocaml pretty good ?
<batcoder-7>
> is pretty new obviously
<flux>
ocaml gc is pretty new?
<batcoder-7>
i meant i am new
<batcoder-7>
>> == /me :P
<flux>
ocaml gc is quite solid from what I've seen
<batcoder-7>
hmm yea
<batcoder-7>
i have only done a few ocaml things so far
<batcoder-7>
but its only only high performance language i have found that has 3 programming styles
<flux>
not to mention the compiler is very fast too
<batcoder-7>
C
<batcoder-7>
but i am not good at it
<batcoder-7>
python and php though
<batcoder-7>
i have used quite a bit
<flux>
well, ocaml is decidedly different from all of those
<batcoder-7>
but i understnad python pretty good now , it has a clean syntax
<batcoder-7>
yea
<batcoder-7>
i mean i think ocaml leans more toward the functional side
<batcoder-7>
but i kinda like OOP more
<flux>
OOP in ocaml is in my opinion an advanced topic
<flux>
a bit shame, perhaps
<batcoder-7>
i have been doing some little things with it
<batcoder-7>
i mean
<batcoder-7>
it looks like normal oop to me
<flux>
I really like the structural equality of classes, though
<flux>
I suppose if you're used to python that should be the same then
<batcoder-7>
let me re phrase my past experince, my oop experince is like PHP so yea its very simple
<batcoder-7>
yes and python
<batcoder-7>
I could use python or php for this current project alteast the web part but might be fun to use ocaml
<batcoder-7>
switch it up a little
<batcoder-7>
when talking about web people always say performance doesnt matter, php ruby even python people, but i think thats one of the places where it might matter quite a bit
<batcoder-7>
when you have 2,000 request a sec
<batcoder-7>
but i guess buy better or more hardware is an easier solution and if your getitng those kind of hits possibly you have the money to do so
<xevz>
Better hardware is the general solution, yes.
<xevz>
(not the good solution)
<batcoder-7>
yea i mean i kinda like php and python some people either love or hate either one, but i just feel the web world kinda picked the wrong languages to use as their main things
<batcoder-7>
solutions*
<xevz>
Sometimes it's not enough however, look at Twitter. Their struggeling to keep RoR even though it (or at least ActiveRecord) scales VERY bad because of all magic.
<xevz>
I hate both. ;)
<xevz>
I'm a Ruby/Perl man when it comes to scripting. :P
<batcoder-7>
ever heard of CakePHP ?
<xevz>
Yeah.
<batcoder-7>
i am a fan i kinda learned it
<batcoder-7>
but if on a local computer i can tell the difference latency wise
<xevz>
I looked at it, and I thought it looked a bit like RoR, too much magic.
<batcoder-7>
when i make a small application i feel deep down that i have made a super big application lol
<batcoder-7>
yea quite a bit of magic
<batcoder-7>
thats why people use it
<batcoder-7>
iu admit in 20 mins yo uwould be suprised what you can do
<xevz>
And why pages scale bad. xD
<batcoder-7>
i kinda look at it this way the RoR stuff the framework is like your new programming language inside of a programming language
<xevz>
PHP isn't anything near something worth calling "fast", really. There's a reason why PHP accelerators exist.
<batcoder-7>
i would rather just pick what classes i need and use them
<batcoder-7>
yea and they work prtty good
<batcoder-7>
well better then nothing
<batcoder-7>
lol
<xevz>
For Ruby, there's Merb for that. In Perl, we have Catalyst. :P
<batcoder-7>
im not a ruby or perlk fan
<xevz>
For a more lightweight framework for PHP, you could look at CodeIgniter, or the fork of that project (which I think is better planned).
<batcoder-7>
i have used both python and php alot so maybe thats why i am a little biased, php got a bad reputation due to some exploits and people writing bad code
<xevz>
I've worked with CodeIgniter, and it has a lot of shortcomings.
<batcoder-7>
IF i am going to use php i am using cakephp ;)
<batcoder-7>
cause if i am using php that means i dont care about performance and yea
<xevz>
PHP got a bad reputation because it's not an application language as such, it's a template language.
<batcoder-7>
ah yea true there too
<batcoder-7>
but it did implment alot of general programming language features
<xevz>
But yeah, bad code (both the C source and PHP code) is part of it too.
<batcoder-7>
i think php6 will make it better
<xevz>
PHP had quite good performance until Zend showed up. :P
<batcoder-7>
really ?
<xevz>
Yeah.
<batcoder-7>
well good is still nowhere near ocaml ;)
<xevz>
Not as fast or Perl, but faster than now.
<xevz>
Yeah.
<batcoder-7>
some people use lua for web stuff
<batcoder-7>
theres cgilua or something
<xevz>
But even O'Caml is a bit slow when interpreted. :P
<batcoder-7>
im not really a fan of that either hehehe
<xevz>
Hehe.
<xevz>
mod_lua exists too, I think.
<batcoder-7>
it does
<xevz>
A friend of mine coded an Lua framework with a dispatcher written in C.
<batcoder-7>
maybe 1 years ago i went through a stage
<batcoder-7>
find this cool langauge use it say your going to write something do it for 3 days then do it all over again with another language
<xevz>
:)
<batcoder-7>
but when you cant disclose the source that closes alot of doors language wise
<batcoder-7>
and im not a fan of zend :P
<batcoder-7>
xevz: but i dont get into the language wars hehe
<batcoder-7>
CakePHP is almost like programming in rails kinda two of the same
<xevz>
Well, there's really no point since O'Caml beats anything. ;)
<xevz>
If I remember correctly, CakePHP was inspired by Ralis.
<xevz>
Rails*
<batcoder-7>
i think its kinda like what python always wanted to be
<batcoder-7>
yea it was
<batcoder-7>
it has routes etc
<batcoder-7>
web helpers etc
<batcoder-7>
xevz: people try to make it a language war but these RAD frameworks can be done in any language
<xevz>
Yeah, mostly.
<xevz>
Maybe not exactly the same way, but there are similar ways for the most things. :)
<xevz>
-the
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<batcoder-7>
xevz: yea
<batcoder-7>
xevz: you ever use any python frameworks ?
<xevz>
No, been some time since I abandoned Python.
<batcoder-7>
xevz: why did you abandon ?
<batcoder-7>
its one of the better slower languages ;)
<xevz>
Was getting frustrated with a couple of things (irregularities in the standard library, syntax, and so on)...
<batcoder-7>
xevz: i think its pretty stblae now
<batcoder-7>
i will never touch ruby
<xevz>
Might be, I'm not going back. :P
<xevz>
Your choice, I guess. I've made my. :)
<batcoder-7>
what do you use ?
<batcoder-7>
you use ruby ?
<batcoder-7>
it might be a fine language but i cant get past that interpreter
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<xevz>
batcoder-7: Ruby or Perl, depending on the task, my mood and what's available. :P
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<yakov>
hello
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<batcoder-7>
xevz: im loosing hope :P perl is a dead language and ruby have you checked how slow that thing is ?
<flux>
batcoder-7 seems to be obsessed with runtime speed ;)
<flux>
perl has one great resource: CPAN
<xevz>
batcoder-7: Ruby isn't THAT slow. And I'm not using it for performance stuff.
<xevz>
Heck, Python and PHP is slower than Perl, please abandon them imediately!
<Smerdyakov>
I don't use any of those, so I'm happy to comply. ;)
<xevz>
Perl is a great tool. Available almost everwhere, it's nowhere near dead (Perl6 is on it's way, althought taking it's time) and CPAN is just awesome. :)
<flux>
also there's the great perl4caml package :)
<flux>
it works!
<xevz>
Didn't know that one. .)
<Smerdyakov>
I need to do a richly-typed regular expression matching implementation in Coq one of these days. Maybe someone already has.
<flux>
atleast for simple stuff
<batcoder-7>
Perl 6 is on the way ?? << lol
<batcoder-7>
we've been saying that to ourselves for like 8 years now ;)
<Smerdyakov>
When you have dependent types, you don't need special language support for anything.
<xevz>
I did say it takes its time.
<flux>
well, perl6 has gone a long way in 8 years
<xevz>
Yeah.
<batcoder-7>
i am not obsessed with runtime speed or i would use pure c or something but i do like a small leverage
<Smerdyakov>
I predict DLSs embedded in dependently-typed languages will take over from Perl, Python, Ruby, shell scripts, etc..
<xevz>
And I'd rather it taking some time than getting a language which are are completely useless. :P
<Smerdyakov>
s/DLSs/DSLs
<batcoder-7>
Ruby is 60x slower on average then C
<batcoder-7>
python is 20x
<batcoder-7>
so python is 3x faster then ruby
<batcoder-7>
and python is considered slow :D
<flux>
I don't think many complained that the original bittorrent client was slow, and it was in python
<flux>
so that's one application that does something arguably useful, and speed didn't matter
<batcoder-7>
its still slow ;)
<batcoder-7>
i like python
<batcoder-7>
i use it prolly the mosto f any language
<batcoder-7>
flux: just to play devils adovocate utorrent is 50x better ;)
<flux>
could be, I use rtorrent which is actually written in C, but I don't notice speed differences :)
<batcoder-7>
rtorrent is cli ?
<flux>
..actually rtorrent is in my experience more stable than btdownloadcurses or whatever, which is a bit trange..
<batcoder-7>
i was going ot use it once
<flux>
it is ncurses based
<flux>
(maybe, but that's what it looks like)
<batcoder-7>
flux: and i do like the fact that ocaml is fast
<batcoder-7>
and really wont take me that much longer to program in then say python
<xevz>
batcoder-7: That's because Ludde (the guy who wrote microTorrent) is an optimizing freak. :P
<batcoder-7>
yea
<batcoder-7>
i just really dont like ruby
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<batcoder-7>
the high ram and low performance == to me that the author really ddidn't know what he was doing ;)
<batcoder-7>
they've had over 10 years to fix too
<Smerdyakov>
batcoder-7, I think you're living in Lala Land. Those don't matter for most uses of "scripting languages."
<batcoder-7>
Smerdyakov: true
<batcoder-7>
But ocaml could be considered a scripting language and it doesnt suffer those problems
<batcoder-7>
Smerdyakov: btw most web host wont host ruby stuff anymore ;) well alot of them anyways
<batcoder-7>
they overload like no other
<flux>
anymore? did they ever?
<batcoder-7>
alot did right when the whole phenomenon hit or w/e
<batcoder-7>
that means on the same server python could atleast fit 3x more traffic ;)
<batcoder-7>
and rails adds more overhead as well
<batcoder-7>
i'm just messing with you guys performance doesnt really matter, hardware is cheap BUT its nice to use a fast language sometimes
<batcoder-7>
i love PHP + CakePHP
<batcoder-7>
but its still much faster then rails ;)
<Smerdyakov>
My web language will compile to run as fast as hand-coded C would.
<batcoder-7>
there could be MUCH worse is all im saying
<batcoder-7>
no language is ideal
<batcoder-7>
but php is a decent language for what its designed for
<xevz>
Of course all languages suck.
<xevz>
Some sucks less.
<xevz>
PHP is not one of them.
<batcoder-7>
lol theres worse man ;)
<batcoder-7>
some say perl is worse :P
<xevz>
Yes, but there are also a lot better stuff out there.
<batcoder-7>
perl to me is a general purpose php :P
<batcoder-7>
php is strictly for web
<xevz>
Well, Perl is generally hated because only 5% percent of everyone who codes Perl KNOWS the language.
<batcoder-7>
if you know rails you could pick up cakephp and not even really have to learn much
<xevz>
Other use it like every other language they've ever tried.
<batcoder-7>
much the same
<xevz>
Another thing with Perl is that it does basically nothing to help you design your code. You need to do that yourself. This is something people think of as a bad thing. Personally, I love it.
<batcoder-7>
well let me say one thing
<batcoder-7>
that is the downfall of php
<batcoder-7>
it has that same theory
<batcoder-7>
and thats why theres soo much crappy php code floating around
<batcoder-7>
python is much much more strict as is ruby
<batcoder-7>
so that doesnt happen quite as bad
<xevz>
Yes.
<xevz>
But, that fact alone does not make the language any less good.
<batcoder-7>
im letting you knwo thats why alot of people hate php
<batcoder-7>
for not being strict
<xevz>
In my opinion, it only makes the language better.
<batcoder-7>
your one of th few who thinks that ;)
<xevz>
I don't really see why it's a drawback.
<batcoder-7>
casue it allows alot of people ti write osme really bad code
<xevz>
If you can't write good, structured code without supporting wheels you shouldn't code. :P
<batcoder-7>
or somehting that is not as universally read by others
<batcoder-7>
xevz: well i agree but thats why many people hate php
<batcoder-7>
around 98-04 ther was some realllly bad code floating around
<batcoder-7>
some good too
<batcoder-7>
but php5 changed that quite a bit and php6 will take out all the old stuff so yea will fix alot of stuff too
<xevz>
I would, however say that PHP almost introduces you to write bad code.
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<batcoder-7>
lol
<batcoder-7>
your just a biut biased
<batcoder-7>
which is fine :P
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<xevz>
magic_quotes_gpc, E_NOTICE turned of almost by default (depending on which example configuration you're using), three or four functions doing almost the same thing, only all but one do it _wrong_ and do so without complaining. :P
<batcoder-7>
but it allows you to us any coding style
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<batcoder-7>
thats all removed in php6
<xevz>
I was delighted to hear magic_quotes_gpc is out of PHP6.
<batcoder-7>
i will give php credit for what its worth, its introduced some pretty good stuff here and there
<batcoder-7>
cakephp is a great rails alternative maybe a bit better
<xevz>
Anotheng thing, which both PHP and Perl suffers from, is old, bad, easily findable guides and articles. :P
<xevz>
Another*
<batcoder-7>
php.net is the main reason why php is still alive
<xevz>
I don't know how many guides out there teach people to use mysql_fetch_array.
<batcoder-7>
becasue it hass soo much docs
<batcoder-7>
yea man as i said php5 OO and using a framework like cake or using PEAR or the zend framework wil be pretty good thats all im saying ;)
<xevz>
Well, the framework shouldn't do (and don't do) _everything_. You will need to know the language to use the framework. This includes all quirks and other stuff...
<batcoder-7>
xevz: even code igniter form what it looks like is pretty nice
<xevz>
Code Igniter is really a piece of junk. xD
<batcoder-7>
i use php5 latest version most of these problems are no longer a problem
<batcoder-7>
i mean from what i read it looks ok
<xevz>
It got so many design failures, I don't know where to start. But it makes life with PHP a bit easier.
<batcoder-7>
i like cake better becasue it allows m to use rails without having to use Ruby ;)
<xevz>
Well, it completely discards $_GET for one thing.
<batcoder-7>
give cake a try
<batcoder-7>
that is if your in the mood for rails
<xevz>
No thanks.
<xevz>
Too much magic, as with Rails.
<batcoder-7>
by most php people cakephp is much better then code igniter , Mozilla uses it and MIT and yale :P
<batcoder-7>
yep
<batcoder-7>
but thats when your in a rails mood
<batcoder-7>
rails mood == you want magic
<xevz>
And well, I would prefer the real deal before some PHP copy, because the language is so much prettier. xD
<xevz>
For Ruby, I would use Merb though.
<xevz>
(if I was forced to write a web application in Ruby, that is)
<batcoder-7>
i think php using php 5 OOP syntax and coded looks looks very good
<batcoder-7>
xevz: im just saying it really depends how you do things
<batcoder-7>
ruby is stricly OO
<batcoder-7>
as is Python so it takes away some freedom as you mentioned before
<batcoder-7>
but i kinda look at OOP as an extensionm in some ways to imperative
<batcoder-7>
functional is something that is compeltely different
<xevz>
I see OO as a container of sorts.
<batcoder-7>
yea
<xevz>
Inside the OO design pattern you can use imperative or functional programming, whichever you want. :P
<batcoder-7>
but yea perl is ok as well my debain system has used it for a very long time
<batcoder-7>
but i am not gonna nock php either, its brought in alot of money too
<batcoder-7>
knock*
<xevz>
Yeah, that's the only reason I ever touch the thing nowadays. .P
<batcoder-7>
lol
<batcoder-7>
you keep acting like its horrible ;) code in it really good you will like it
<batcoder-7>
i only use PHP when i am in a Rails Mood
<batcoder-7>
cakephp is like a port of rails
<xevz>
I've used PHP for six years, I know the language.
<xevz>
Doesn't mean I like it. :P
<batcoder-7>
well you dont have to like it but just dont hate :P
<xevz>
Why not?
<batcoder-7>
i dont really like perl but i dont hate it
<xevz>
Well, that's up to you.
<xevz>
I'm more of a "hate or love" kind of person. :P
<batcoder-7>
casue its still a solid language with alot of apps built with it that have done alot of good
<xevz>
Sure, as long as I don't need to touch the code of those applications.
<batcoder-7>
php python ruby aint going no where
<batcoder-7>
not sure about perl but yea :P
<batcoder-7>
xevz: im a framework person now, if i dont need something very specific and i can use cake or somehting write some clean magic code why not ? geti t done 10x faster
<batcoder-7>
hopefully this ocaml web framework is ok
<xevz>
I use a framework when I feel the need. :P
<batcoder-7>
now want ot know something i think is the stupidest thing ever
<batcoder-7>
gtk.php.net
<batcoder-7>
i would never use that
<xevz>
Oh, that horrid thing. xD
<batcoder-7>
nor do i think many people do
<batcoder-7>
yes becasue PHP was not designed to do those kinds of apps
<xevz>
That, OpenGL for PHP and so on is just plain wrong.
<batcoder-7>
so yea it doesnt handle that stuff very well
<batcoder-7>
people with too much time on there hands
<batcoder-7>
they should be making things better in php for what php is designed for
<batcoder-7>
that looks like it could really help performance
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<batcoder-7>
ocsigen.org is not working for me hmmm m
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<batcoder-7>
is there any MVC web frameworks for ocaml ?
<batcoder-7>
not to sure if this oscigen is mvc hmm
<jlouis>
why would you prefer MVC? There sure must be a better way.
<jlouis>
Continuations comes to mind...
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<Associat0r>
F# with MVC
<batcoder-7>
MVC is ust osmething i find to be pretty good
<Associat0r>
or monorails
<batcoder-7>
also ocamlnet looks really mature
<RobertFischer>
Whoa, what're people talking about?
<RobertFischer>
Sounds like my kind of conversation. :)
<RobertFischer>
OCamlNet isn't an MVC framework, is it?
<batcoder-7>
no
<batcoder-7>
itsn ot even really a framework
<batcoder-7>
just a library that has connections and implmentations os ALOT of protocols
<jlouis>
RobertFischer, the usual: Web application development
<batcoder-7>
isthere any MVC framework for ocaml ?
<batcoder-7>
just wondering
<batcoder-7>
is oscgigen mvc what kind of style of organization does it use ?
<RobertFischer>
Sorry, when I asked about OCamlNet, I meant to ask about Ocsigen.
<Associat0r>
btw did anyone here try felix?
<RobertFischer>
There's also Ex Nunc, but it's all in Italian, so I've got no idea about it.
<batcoder-7>
i jus looked at that
<batcoder-7>
doesnt look mature at all
<batcoder-7>
looks liek its either ocamlnet or ocsigen
<batcoder-7>
im sure it uses somehting similar to mvc to seperate stuff
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: Let me know how ocsigen goes for you (robert at smokejumperit.com)
<RobertFischer>
I've been looking for good reviews of it from people who aren't the developers.
<batcoder-7>
ah yea
<batcoder-7>
well i need to write an app i will look at it
<batcoder-7>
but ot be honest ocaml + ocamlnet + about 5 different libraries of choice osunds like a good idea too
<RobertFischer>
I've been thinking a lot about web application development and static typing. Trying to duplicate Rails in OCaml is not the way to go.
<batcoder-7>
yea i know
<batcoder-7>
ive got too used to the rails style and magic <<
<jlouis>
magic has no place in proper programming
<batcoder-7>
maybe MVC is good for somehting like a blog or shopping cart
<batcoder-7>
but yea hmm
<batcoder-7>
jlouis: yea i know
<batcoder-7>
this project i am starting now will be a massive project
<batcoder-7>
so ocaml might be a good option
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<batcoder-7>
i need to reallly plan out exactly how i want to do this
<jlouis>
prototype. Throw away.
<batcoder-7>
hmm i dont want to prototype i dont think hmm, just gonna plan it out really good and go with it
<xevz>
batcoder-7: MVC is quite good for any large web application.
<xevz>
I love the separation of stuff in it. :)
<batcoder-7>
xevz: i will let you and RobertFischer battle that one out
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: Do it one small step at a time. Your plans will be worthless fairly quickly.
<xevz>
batcoder-7: :D
<batcoder-7>
MVC is not a huge some super comnplicated concept just keeps data views and loguc seperate
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: I'm actually with xevz: MVC is the best general-purpose architecture for web apps that I've ever encountered. Grails adds in the ideas of "jobs" and "services", and I think you're pretty much set.
<batcoder-7>
you could set something liek that up in any language
<batcoder-7>
wonder how i would setup a good mvc enviroment in ocaml hmm
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: I think the biggest trick is the view mojo. Without dynamic typing, the idea of a view "just being a script" is pretty much out. Ocsigen has some interesting ideas that way, though.
<batcoder-7>
one thing i REALLLY like about rails was the mvc and the routes those are the only 2 things i care about
<batcoder-7>
otherwise i dont car baou eails
<xevz>
For the view, I think TAL would be a nice match.
<batcoder-7>
localization was pretty good too
<batcoder-7>
but im sure theres stuff in ocaml for that somehwere
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: Routes are based on reflection, which OCaml doesn't have. So your controllers would have to provide that functionality somehow.
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: That's assuming you want to go the routes.rb approach. I'm thinking it might be better to have the routing information be an aspect of the controllers themselves.
<batcoder-7>
a centralized index that everything gets routed through
<xevz>
RobertFischer: They are not that different, other than taglib use a special tag while TAL is attached to already existing tags and in many cases modifys the tag it is attached to...
<RobertFischer>
xevz: Got it. The problem is inline expression language stuff. You'd have to do some kind of transform on the view to make it into OCaml code in order to do that....
<xevz>
RobertFischer: Yeah, XML + XSLT -> O'Caml -> compilation would be one way to do it.
<batcoder-7>
if i coulf have routes a good way to go MVC and a good library for localization >> it would be great lol
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: A centralized routing system is okay, but the infrastructure to support something like that in OCaml would need to be built. Like I said, the routing script idea relies heavily on reflection, which isn't available in OCaml.
<RobertFischer>
batcoder-7: If you want Rails, do Rails.
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<fbvortex>
I'm trying to use Julien Signoles' calendar library ( http://www.lri.fr/~signoles/prog.en.html ). On a system with findlib, I've compiled it and installed it "successfully" in the sense I get no errors and my ocaml version is recent enough. However, anytime I try to actually use it, even after I've loaded it using #use "calendar" or #load "calendarLib.cmo", I get "undefined reference to global 'Calendar'" errors. What might I be doing wrong?
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<flux>
fbvortex, #use "topfind" #require "calendar" open Calender;; after that: week (now ());;
<flux>
you can stick that #use "topfind" to ~/.ocamlinit
<fbvortex>
flux: the sequence you gave is exactly what I had tried (though I just tried now () rather than week (now () )). I keep getting the reference to undefined globar 'Calendar' error.
<fbvortex>
global, rather
<fbvortex>
I am using a few-months old version of Ocaml, 3.09.2, but when calendar is compiling it says this is a new enough version