vect changed the topic of #ocaml to: OCaml 3.07 ! -- Archive of Caml Weekly News: http://pauillac.inria.fr/~aschmitt/cwn, ICFP'03 http://www.icfpcontest.org/, A tutorial: http://merjis.com/richj/computers/ocaml/tutorial/, A free book: http://cristal.inria.fr/~remy/cours/appsem, Mailing List (best ml ever for any computer language): http://caml.inria.fr/bin/wilma/caml-list
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<Eglin> hrm... perusing the tutorial link from the topic...
<Eglin> the authors notions of functional vs imperitive languages are funny
<Eglin> er, his definitions, rather
<Eglin> "in a functional language, functions are first-class citizens."
<Maddas> Eglin: I found http://www.cs.caltech.edu/courses/cs134/cs134b/book.pdf quite good and helpful
<Eglin> bah... I hate pdf's :)
<Maddas> Why?
<Maddas> Anyhow, google will munch it to HTML for you if you want.
<Eglin> yeah, but the formatting leaves something to be desired
<Maddas> Yup.
<Eglin> I dislike pdfs because the idea is retarded
<Maddas> What idea?
<ayrnieu> because PDFs exist for printing, and I always want to read everything online. A format better designed for that (HTML, Texinfo) would help.
<Eglin> yup
<Maddas> I find PDF a very decent format to read.
<Eglin> garbage
<ayrnieu> I despise them for reading online.
<Eglin> same
<Maddas> I don't read online. I download them and read them.
<Maddas> (Or do you mean "on the computer?"
<ayrnieu> no searhing, constant troubles with sizing and page-turning.
<Maddas> )
<Maddas> It has searching.
<ayrnieu> eh, of course I mean 'on the computer'.
<Maddas> I never had any problems with page-turning and sizing.
<Eglin> the fundamental design goals of pdfs are at odds with those of the user
<ayrnieu> Maddas - no decent searching. No outside-of-a-GUI-viewer searching.
<ayrnieu> Maddas - but the horrible navigation makes up for what searching you have.
<Maddas> Horrible navigation?
<ayrnieu> Maddas - I do not find online documents sensibly broken by the page.
<Eglin> Information formats should make data _more_ accessable, not less.
<Eglin> Adobe wants to protect their content, so you suffer
<Eglin> It is crap, and I despise that so many people foolishly buy into their garbage
<ayrnieu> nevermind that my 800x600 monitor can't view any PDF readably without multiple in-page movements.
<Eglin> yup
<Eglin> thank God someone else out their agrees w/ me! I'm usually all alone on this one
<ayrnieu> indeed, only Adobe's PDF-creating software (such that they have) gives the format any benefit over postscript.
<Eglin> even that is arguable
<Maddas> PDF was not designed to be viewed with low-resolutions, I agree with that.
<Eglin> lex et al have their own followings
<ayrnieu> but since I find creating print-only documents as uninteresting as reading print-only documents, I probably don't have a decent opinion on authoring tools -- except that I'd rather use Texinfo or LaTeX or Lyx and convert.
<Eglin> *tex et al
<Eglin> agreed
<Eglin> PDF should be a presentation tool, not a document format
<ayrnieu> Maddas - I can read HTML just fine on my Palm, and many useful authoring formats translate to HTML -- I can't even read PDF on my one computer. Perhaps this overly biases me against that format.
<Maddas> ayrnieu: It certainly would.
<ayrnieu> not as conveniently, at any rate. I just wish that people would write in LaTeX or something and convert that instead of inventing new worse formats every five years.
<Maddas> I use LaTeX and generate PDFs from that.
<Eglin> at any rate... before I started my rant... What salient point were you going to point me toward?
<Maddas> me?
<Eglin> yeah...
<Eglin> what is in the caltech book?
<Maddas> None, I just wondered why you don't like PDF.
<Maddas> A (IMO) nice O'Caml tutorial.
<Eglin> ah, cool
<Eglin> will sheepishly d/l it, then :)
<Maddas> But if you don't like PDF/the converted HTML, feel free not to use it!
<Eglin> hehe
<ayrnieu> indeed, I like the O'Caml book off of www.ocaml.org
<Eglin> will look into it.
<Eglin> thanks
<Eglin> Just decided to look into ocaml today
<Maddas> I really prefer the PDF version, since the HTML (the CSS to be more specific) is broken on certain browsers
<Eglin> Kind of feel like I should be proficient in at least one functional language...
<Eglin> and nobody writes lisp/scheme bindings anymore
<ayrnieu> and nobody familiar with O'Caml or Haskell really considers scheme much of a function language -- and nobody considers Lisp one at all.
<Eglin> oh?
<Eglin> please explain?
<ayrnieu> Lisp deserves its own category =) Learn a bit more about O'Caml and see what you think
<Maddas> ayrnieu: You might have a hard point defending that against Riastradh.
<Eglin> easier to rule them out of the imperitive class... so they must be functional :)
<Maddas> There's also logical languages
<ayrnieu> more useful distinctions exist.
<Eglin> I'm thinking that logical languages fall into the functional class
<ayrnieu> Don't think that way.
<Eglin> How (in broad terms) does ocaml compare w/ haskell?
<Eglin> ick... the tutorial @ merjis.com in the title is awful
<ayrnieu> Haskell mostly has lazy evaluation and only strictness by data dependency -- which it uses to force an ordering on IO code. O'Caml mostly has strict evaluation.
<ayrnieu> I can offer opinions, but I don't really know how to respond to your question.
<Maddas> Also, Haskell is pure.
<Eglin> fair enough... not a very straightforward question
<Eglin> Maddas: How can it interface with non-pure stateful libraries, then?
<Maddas> You're asking the wrong person :)
<Eglin> fair enough
<Eglin> I doubt I worded the question correctly, anyway
<ayrnieu> Eglin - it probably keeps stateful library functions in the IO monad.
<Maddas> I would think they use monads, but I don't know anything about monads, so I'd better shut up.
<Eglin> so, you just mean it doesn't generally have ! functions
<ayrnieu> I don't follow you, sorry..
<Maddas> Eglin: I didn't like the merjis.com tutorial either, that's why I pointed you to the other book.
<Eglin> lisp used to use method! notation to indicate side effects, IIRC
<Eglin> Maddas: cool... thanks.
<ayrnieu> Scheme has that, yes.
<ayrnieu> No, Haskell has plenty of side-effecting functions, it just forces them to reside within the IO monad -- which means that an artificial dependency gets run through the program and orders every invocation of an IO function.
<Eglin> that makes sense... thanks
<ayrnieu> artificial data dependency, I mean. Some people like to think of the program accepting the entire state of the world and returning the entire state of the world, with modification-in-place as a proven-safe optimization.
<Eglin> just wondering how a "pure functional" language could have bindings against c-type langauges
<Eglin> didn't really consider i/o... same dealio, though
<Eglin> ayrnieu: Makes sense.
<ayrnieu> Haskell has many academic papers on such topics, and lots and lots of compiler smarts to make the language work.
<Eglin> I'm sure
<Eglin> farewell, all. thanks for the tips
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<two-face> hi
<Maddas> hi
<karryall> salut
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<z> hi
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