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<baader> i just don't get the hang of FP
<baader> its weird
<Riastradh> Is there anything you find weird in specific?
<baader> the way functions are pattern matching are used is
<baader> or perhaps the imperative way of programming appears to be more 'natrual' to me coz i'm used to it
<Riastradh> Pattern matching isn't really a functional concept -- it just happens to be used in a lot of functional languages.
<baader> yes, hm
<baader> i will not give up tho, i really want to learn this
<Riastradh> God!
<Riastradh> Er.
<Riastradh> Good!
* Riastradh peers menacingly at his 'o' key.
<baader> :p
<phubuh> i remember reading o'caml and haskell guides a few months ago
<Riastradh> Have you ever read SICP?
<Riastradh> (addressed to baader, that is)
<baader> SICP ? no
<vect> anyone here did the icfp (except mattam)
<vect> ?
* Riastradh
<Riastradh> ...with Scheme.
<vect> <- with C.
<vect> :/
<Riastradh> Ew.
<phubuh> a lot of things confused me, which was frustrating. oh well, i thought, and made some things with the parts i did understand. naturally, i started understanding more and more of the stranger concepts, and glancing back on the haskell introduction today, everything just seems so ... obvious. i mean, i want to slap myself for not understanding what i didn't.
<vect> Yeah. I'm a warrior.
<Smerdyakov> vect, it is apropriate to call it "the ICFP contest."
<Smerdyakov> vect, ICFP is an academic conference.
* Riastradh has a very slight chance of going to the ICFP.
<vect> Smerdyakov I Know.
<baader> oh
<phubuh> baader: SICP is the textbook mit uses to teach computing, iirc. it's available on the net for free, google for it.
<baader> thx, i'll take a look
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<Riastradh> It's a _very_ good CS textbook. Though it uses Scheme, most of the concepts can easily be expressed with OCaml.
<Riastradh> And also, though it uses Scheme, it's not a _specifically_ Scheme textbook, but a general CS textbook that happens to use Scheme because Scheme was what the authors considered the ideal language for the book.
<phubuh> scheme's syntax is very fat-free and explicit, which makes it appropriate
<Riastradh> What are you reading to learn OCaml, baader?
<baader> the o'reilly book
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<NewToPython> baader: Also, in case you "waiting for the movie to be released," ;), the SICP lectures on video can be found here: http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/
<baader> :)
<baader> stop making fun of me pls :>
<NewToPython> oh! I hope you didn't think I was! not in the least!
<baader> ok then
<NewToPython> Sorry if it sounded that way!
<baader> no problem, i'm just feeling like a moron w/ ocaml, never had so much trouble learing something new
<baader> i might even start bothering folks on this channel w/ really really stupid questions very soon
<NewToPython> is the O'Reilly book better than the online docs?
<baader> the o'reilly book is available online
<NewToPython> I know.
<baader> erm, then i don't understand your question
<NewToPython> the other docs.
<baader> and the o'reilly book
<baader> oh nice, thanks
* baader bookmarks
<NewToPython> baader: what types of pgms do you plan to write in OCaml? what lang do you use now?
<baader> currently i know and use C & C++, i know other languages aswell but i don't use them
<baader> type of apps, i'm not sure about that yet, i'm planning to create smallish networking apps perhaps w/ a nice GUI, but a GUI is not a requirement
<NewToPython> the "great programming lang shootout" puts OCaml up w/C's speed of exectution.
<baader> i am aware of that
<baader> plus ocaml supposedly offers many other benefits that C doesn't
<Smerdyakov> Heh. Yes.
<Smerdyakov> It doesn't take much to beat C for application programming.
<Smerdyakov> Most languages used by more than 20 people are better choices there. :)
<samx> there's lies, big lies, and then statistics and shootouts
<baader> haha :>
<baader> very true
<NewToPython> the shoot-out author wrote some string routines in OCaml:
<NewToPython> useful links: http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/
<NewToPython> Cset - Character Sets for OCaml http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/cset/
<NewToPython> String Scanning functions (like in Icon) for OCaml. http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/strscan/
<samx> the shootout gives points to different languages, and ocaml is close in point speeds to c's points. it does not mean that the execution speed would be as close percentage wise; it isn't
<NewToPython> samx: you can resort the results, & look only at exec-time, IIRC.
<NewToPython> useful links: http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/
<NewToPython> Cset - Character Sets for OCaml http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/cset/
<NewToPython> String Scanning functions (like in Icon) for OCaml. http://www.bagley.org/~doug/ocaml/strscan/
<baader> actually i'm not only looking for execution speed, its mainly robustness and LOC <-> "what your code actually achives" ratio that i find interesting about ocaml
<NewToPython> baader: if speed is not a critical factor, check out Python
<baader> the speed is an added benefit
<baader> ocaml compiles natively, and that's what i like about it, too
<NewToPython> I was productively coding in Python in 1/2-day of skimming the docs: http://www.python.org/doc/2.2/index.html Python has library-modules for nearly all common tasks, & \
<NewToPython> bindings to several database & GUI's.
<baader> i know python, but i'd like to get the hang of an FP language
<NewToPython> me too. one day.
<samx> one day someone will make an FP language that will be popular. i doubt that it will be ocaml
<baader> it will be F# :)
<NewToPython> samx: why? the OCaml syntax?
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<samx> python, the development team
<NewToPython> how so?
<NewToPython> (My impression is that they actively maintain it.)
<samx> newtopython, they don't really like to communicate or listen to the 'community', and they rather procrastinate, instead of make solutions to problems that need fixing
<baader> who's 'they' ?
<baader> the python ppl ?
<samx> the inria ocaml people
<baader> hm, i'm not sure i agree on that
<NewToPython> samx: what about a offshoot?
<samx> baader, well, you haven't been using and following ocaml for a few years
<baader> that is true
<samx> newtopython, can't really do an offshoot, because the inria folks are using a restrictive licence
<NewToPython> oic. did they always? e.g., could you fork from an older implementation?
<baader> on the other hand the c++ folks also don't "listen" to anyone, so ...
<baader> neither is sun w/ java
<Smerdyakov> I think there is a pretty good Haskell community.
<samx> baader, c++ and java language standards do not matter, as the communities are so huge
<NewToPython> Ruby's & Python's creators actively work with the community. And Icon is 100% public-domain (no restrictions at all).
<Smerdyakov> Actually, if you want "working with the community," Standard ML is a pretty good choice.
<Smerdyakov> MLton (the current best optimizing SML compiler) has some very eager-to-please developers.
<baader> isn't haskell pure functional ?
<Smerdyakov> Yes
<Smerdyakov> Standard ML isn't, of course. :)
<samx> smedyakov, yes, many different standard ml developers have seemed pretty willing to talk with people. unfortunately they don't have a community to talk with :-)
<Smerdyakov> samx, not true. The MLton mailing list has had a lot of chatter recently, and I was recently able to get a pre-written library for elaborating SML code from a professor I e-mailed based on a comp.lang.ml post he made.
<NewToPython> I'm glancing at http://caml.inria.fr/license/QPL.txt which parts are problematic?
<samx> smerdyakov, i've subscribed to mlton mailing list for about a year now, and i think it has seen about 10 messages in total -- yes, five of them within the last week :-)
<Smerdyakov> Bottom line: SML has quite an adequate community, especially weighting average skill level of members.
<Smerdyakov> The average Python user is barely about "script kiddie" level, while the average SML user is a computer science PhD student. :)
<baader> dont get me wrong, you kinda make it sound as if my choice trying to learn ocaml is not a good one ?!
<Smerdyakov> s/about/above
<samx> nywtopython, if you ever followed the trolltech discussion a couple of years ago, it applied to qpl
<Smerdyakov> baader, I'd recommend Haskell for learning functional programming, actually.
<Smerdyakov> baader, then take your pick of SML or OCaml.
* baader ponders
<baader> why would i want to learn haskell and then sml or ocaml ?!
<samx> smerdyakov, you can bet that in absolute numbers there's more phds and phd students using python, than ml.. in percetages, of course not.. most people not studying in academia would not have dealt with functional languages. it does not mean that they don't know what they are doing
<Smerdyakov> samx, it means that the average SML user is "smarter" than the average Python user in some reasonable sense, I'd argue.
<NewToPython> & a large pool of naive users has its advantages too, e.g., unearthing bugs.
<samx> smerdyakov, why would one care about smartness of an 'average' user? my code won't change based on the iq of the average user of the language i'm using.. most useful library code isn't mind bogglingly complex.. actually most real life code require very little algorithmically complex code
<Smerdyakov> samx, I guess raw number of smart users would really matter... but it _is_ nice to be confident that you can have an intelligent conversation with pretty much any user of a language. :)
<NewToPython> & eventually, some go on to earn a PhD.
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<samx> smerdyakov, you mean like the intelligent conversation the ocaml dev team and the ocamlp4 developer have had for couple of years now ? :-)
<Smerdyakov> I'm on the SML side of the fence, and I wholeheartedly agree that OCaml suffers from excessive closedness of community and development.
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<baader> aside from all those 'religious' and 'community politics' things, why would i learn haskell before sml or ocaml ?!
<Smerdyakov> You already know imperative programming. Using Haskell will force you to learn functional programming with no imperative crutch.
<baader> hm yes
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<baader> i'll stick w/ ocaml for now, i think
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<joejoejoe> how comments are defined?
<joejoejoe> how are comments defined?
<joejoejoe> nvm
<baader> (* comment *)
<joejoejoe> yeah i looked it up in my old ml notes
<joejoejoe> thanks though
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<Riastradh> Can method definitions use partial application?
<mrvn_> If you fully type them
<Riastradh> i.e. is this legal? -- bar : int -> int and I do method bar_m = bar will some_object#bar_m 5 call bar with 5?
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<mrvn_> Riastradh: should.
<Riastradh> OK.
* Riastradh kicks and screams at ocaml.org.
<Riastradh> Why is it always down?!
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<lus|wazze> why dont you smply use caml.inria.fr?
<Riastradh> It's not the same site.
<lus|wazze> yeah but what does ocaml.org offer that caml.inria.fr doesnt?
<lus|wazze> ah well
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<afkts> gotta go no
<Riastradh> Is there any way to write syntactic extensions to OCaml without camlp4?
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<vegai> hmm, I wonder how hard it would be to take the bittorrent implementation from mldonkey...
<vegai> ...and create a standalone bittorrent client.
* vegai takes a peek.
* Zadeh wonders what mldonkey is, and what it has to do with ml and donkeys
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<mrvn> It implements the donkey2K P2P protokol ion ocaml
<Zadeh> ah
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