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<tolstoj>
hi all
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<Yurik>
hi all
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<docelic>
eoy
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<two-face>
hi
<sam_>
hello
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<systems>
hey
<systems>
ocaml support multiple inheritence or single inheritence.
<sam_>
hi
<two-face>
multiple
<systems>
okay, can one do function overloading in ocaml ?
<two-face>
yes
<systems>
yes!!!!
<systems>
so why is ocaml accused of havin low polymorphism , isnt func overload like half of it
<two-face>
the pb is method polymorphism
<two-face>
which is possible now i think
<systems>
i am new to programming, so it hard to me to tell how would that be crippling
<two-face>
ah
<sam_>
ocaml does not have ad hoc polymorphism outside it's object system, which is what i believe most people complain about
<systems>
so my question is that a serious complain ?
<sam_>
i think it's an issue (in the big bunch of other issues), but said that.. i still prefer ocaml over other languages (which i consider to have even more issues)
<systems>
haskell
<systems>
ocaml is attractive to learn, only one implementation, i think i found 3 free books
<systems>
on the net
<rox>
systems: willing to share urls?
<emu>
whaddya mean, only one implementation
<emu>
there are many versions ;)
<sam_>
imho haskell is way too slow for at least any of my purposes, and i prefer strict languages with optional laziness in them, versus lazy languages with optional strictness in them
<systems>
one of them is the oreilly book, i donwload it in both french and english, it was a nice opportunity to revise my french, and learning programming expression in french
<emu>
having a single implementation is only an advantage when you want to change the language a great deal... and which ocaml does take advantage of
<sam_>
i'd consider a single implementation often as an advantage too, but in ocaml's case imho it's a disadvantage
<two-face>
having a signle impl is fine when the implementation is free
<emu>
no, it's not fine when you need a stable language
<rox>
systems: thx;)
<two-face>
backward compatibility is possible
<emu>
but you better hope that's what the implementors desire =)
<sam_>
in ocaml's case, the license of the compiler is too restrictive to have another team start working on it, and the ocaml development team just doesn't seem to be interested in making the needed changes and additions to the language
<steele>
sam_: i what direction should ocaml go in your eyes? do you like some things in needle?
<sam_>
steele, actually.. needle would be very close to what i'd see ocaml would need to go towards
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<Systems>
hmm
<Systems>
so
<Systems>
hmmm
<two-face>
what?
* emu
falls over
<Systems>
:)
<two-face>
are people vim or emacs users in here?
<Systems>
i am sooo anti-emacs
<two-face>
ah?
<emu>
I'm anti-emacs but I use emacs!
<Systems>
why
<steele>
i keep switching every few months
<Systems>
you do lisp
<two-face>
switching?
<steele>
i see a neat feature in some emacs-mode, switch for some time, see that i spend more time customizing fighting with little things that don't work and switch back to vim
<steele>
s/customizing//
* jao
uses emacs and tuareg mode
<two-face>
I think that no editor is ideal
<Systems>
emacs suffers from an identity syndrome
<Systems>
vim is ideal
<emu>
vim has just killed me
<two-face>
no vim is not ideal, it doesn't have dynamic abbrevs
<emu>
I was typing in a webform, and I hit escape
<emu>
and it eliminated all my typing
* emu
moans
<Systems>
no way
<Systems>
vim doesnt delete on esc
<emu>
it wasn't vim
<emu>
it was my vim instinct =) I use vim to write email normally
<emu>
I don't use vim to program becaues the lisp ides for emacs are better
<two-face>
writing mail is very basic activity, editing xml for instance is more complicated
<emu>
only because xml is overly complicated in syntax, but that's another matter
<two-face>
well, could be html as well, and some more complicated stuff
<sam_>
steele, anyway, the main issues i see as problems with caml would be.. lack of ad hoc polymorphism (be it type classes, gcaml, multimethods, ...), lack of module level recursion ("assume foo : int -> int" or something), lack of macros (or some way to extend the language nicely - yes, they have camlp4, but it's very much not integrated with the rest of the language, and the development teams internal fighting of it is pretty disturbing too), and t
<sam_>
he standard library
<emu>
two-face: actually, vim has some really nice commands to reformat paragraphs, and it's not so easy
<emu>
two-face: it even handles > quoted text properly
<mattam>
emu: but indenting is a mess isn't it ?
<two-face>
emu: it is not about formating, it is about autoinserting tag with respect to the DTD
<emu>
mattam: indenting what?
<mattam>
emu: code ?
<emu>
I dunno. I've chalked up my problems with vim indentation to my ignorance of vim, and I use emacs for code anyway.
<two-face>
emu: why don't you use the viper-mode ?
<emu>
what for? I don't mind emacs keybindings
<two-face>
ah ok
<emu>
C-M-f and family
<emu>
yummy
<nkoza>
sam_: and lack of dynamic binding? :)
<sam_>
nkoza, counted that as part of the 'lack of ad hoc polymorphism'
<two-face>
nkoza: there is a patch, but it is highly unsafe
<steele>
lack of dynamic binding outside the object system, right?
<sam_>
oh, and lack of namespaces (as suggested by someone in the mailing list a while ago)
<two-face>
but implemented with camlp4
<sam_>
and for the standard library.. lack of type safe marshaling, the in/out_channel implementations, bunch of smaller issues, and overall the fact that it's pretty much impossible to get any modules/methods added to the standard library, so that everyone has their own 'Pervasives2', 'Unix2', 'String2', etc.. while the 'openess' of standard libraries are usually the _strength_ of one/few implementation languages such as perl and python
<steele>
yeah, i guess everybody has their own String.of_list ;)
<nkoza>
lack of introspection?
<two-face>
RTTI as well
<steele>
that would be a part G'Caml, but i wonder what implications that would have on performance
<emu>
G'Caml?
<sam_>
yes, somekind of meta object protocol, reflection or whatever would be cool of course, but i think the above issues would be much more important
<emu>
well typed programs never produce errors? wowie
<sam_>
oh, add extensional record type to my list too
<sam_>
and official support for the revised syntax
<sam_>
i better stop now ;-)
<two-face>
revised syntax is useless
<whee>
lies
<whee>
I can't stand normal syntax.
<sam_>
why is that?
<two-face>
you have to
<whee>
it requires thinking.
<two-face>
one languge one syntax, period
<whee>
some of the areas are ambiguous and I don't want to think about goes with that half the time
<sam_>
yes, one language one syntax. drop the current syntax.
<whee>
two-face: that's not what camlp4 says :p
<two-face>
whee: camlp4 is not ocaml :)
<whee>
I'd vote for dropping the current syntax and revising it in some way
<whee>
it can't hurt to have a formal review and design process
<two-face>
there is no vote for dropping anything
<two-face>
people are exagerating, ocaml is not perl
<whee>
the camlp4 developer gets a lot of flak from the core ocaml team because they don't even want to consider the syntax as an issue
<sam_>
yes, the message is "in the ocaml community, your voice does not matter" :-)
<two-face>
i read no real voice about the syntax issue
<whee>
I find myself using haskell more often now just because of its syntax
<whee>
it's just easier to work with sometimes.
<sam_>
i can live with the syntax, though it has a bit too many gotchas.. but the "in the ocaml community, your voice does not matter" extends imho far beyond the syntax issue
<two-face>
your voice matters, just file wishes in the bug tracker
<whee>
and watch them get shot down :p
<sam_>
and watch them be ignored by the developer team on the mailing list
<two-face>
have you ever tried once at least?
<sam_>
nope, but i've seen many others who have
<two-face>
some have been granted
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<kev_>
any of you know any good references for doing proofs with EML?
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<rox>
anyone knows why ocaml.org is down?
<rox>
or rather if it will be up anytime soon
<jao>
i read in the mailing list that they're looking for a new maintainer