norly has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Kabouik has joined #neo900
freemangordon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
freemangordon has joined #neo900
b1101 has joined #neo900
xes has quit [Quit: Going offline...]
kolp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Kabouik has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
mva has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
mva has joined #neo900
jonwil has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [SeaMonkey 2.30/20141013232806]]
svree4 has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
So, I cannot get from MFD16 specification, how does it multifunction (speaker/receiver/vibrator) if it has only two contacts (1 + and 1 -)? Different frequencies applied, alright... At 'resonance' frequency it vibrates, at other frequencies it emits sound. What does 'receiver' mean?
<Oksana>
Does it function like microphone in 'receiver' mode? Alright, it's super-simple magnet+coil speaker-microphone-vibrator... Nice :)
nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Oksana has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Oksana has joined #neo900
Oksana has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 17.0.9/20130911042038]]
Oksana has joined #neo900
<wpwrak>
"receiver" still means "speaker", not microphone. antique telephony jargon.
<Oksana>
Did I miss anything? And what's the difference between 'receiver' and 'speaker', then?
nox- has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<Oksana>
No difference at all, just antique word?
<wpwrak>
well, you call it a speaker if the sound goes into the room and you call it receiver if the sound goes directly to your ear
<wpwrak>
i'll leave it to DocScrutinizer05 to explain all the gory details - he's the audio expert :)
<wpwrak>
but the bottom like is that receiver != microphone, even if the name seem to suggest it
<Oksana>
So, receiver vs speaker is mostly different use-case ?
<Oksana>
And thus different volume, possibly other properties of audio...
<Oksana>
For MFD devices in general, at least, such as audio and vibra, at least; nothing definite about MFD16
<wpwrak>
yes, the physics are also different. and also the sound pressure needed :)
<Oksana>
Why am I so excited about this simple speaker, when there are already stereo speakers, and stereo-out? Well, I expect that stereo speakers are not 'dynamic speakers with magnet and coil', and thus they do not support Telecoil. Besides, having a spare speaker which will not be exposed to dust and sand is also ... interesting.
b1101 has joined #neo900
b1101 has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
Though, I doubt that small MDF16 would be able to couple electromagnetically with the telecoil in the hearing aid. Still, it is one more thing to play around with...
<Oksana>
MFD16*, sorry
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:what is special in that speaker ?
<Oksana>
That it is a vibrator, too. If it is put in instead of a simple vibrator, we get one more speaker in the device. :)
<Oksana>
Considering that it will not have a hole in the case, it will not get attacked by dust/sand/water that much.
<Oksana>
If the device falls into water, the stereo speakers (at least one of them, depending on orientation of the device) will be the first to get wet, while this speaker (hidden inside, like a vibrator) might be able to get a sound out (if the accelerometer detects free-fall in time).
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:will it fit insted of the n900 vivrator or it will be needed to stick to the board ?
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:do you watch si-fi porn too much ??
<Oksana>
Nah, I have not read Science Fiction for a long time. Too long. But when somebody mentions a neat device, I go and see whether it would be reachable from current setup and Linux drivers. Theoretically, it would be. Practically, I would need to find another device which already uses MFD16 inside it, to ask users what does and does not work with it.
<Oksana>
N900's vibration motor was 15mmx4.5mmx5mm
<Oksana>
This one is about 16.4mmx18.4mmx4.5mm A bit larger.
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:then if it works i.e gets approved by docscrutinizer05 we will see ;)
<Oksana>
:)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:yeah i already used that app :p
<Oksana>
Imagine how awesome it would be to have a siren starting when you are in free fall :) Especially when it's triggered in a lift...
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:i think if there is a stronger vivrater out there it coud be better :
<Oksana>
I mean, elevator.
<Oksana>
Stronger? Hmm... Stronger implies power-hungry, heavy and large. And jumping out of the device because the nest was not enough to hold it...
<Nokiabot>
Oksana: well thats really neat lol i.e the siren in a merry go round :p
<Oksana>
Though, larger than that would be difficult to find :) It fits, like, 4 mute-vibrators.
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:stronger vivrator can be used to move the device ;) dont you remember the dancing nokias ?
<Oksana>
Of course, the accelerometer would detect when the free-fall ends, and decide, whether it was hard landing (siren continues) or soft landing (oops, false alarm)
<Oksana>
No. Dancing nokias?
<Oksana>
Or the siren in the device could be silenced by traditional face-palm (remember, how the alarm is silenced, when no GUI is visible?)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:i dont recal the model no but i still got one and it moves according to the tone when kept straight:)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:let it get approved first :p
<Oksana>
:-)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana;insted of the red led in the back can a laser be put there or other place like slide switch or a hole in the chasis ?
<Oksana>
All LEDs in Neo900 are RGB LEDs :)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:no flash is not rgb :p btw i am talking about lasers lol
<Oksana>
And there is going to be complicated colour change for back LED to signify the state of memory-card (whether you can remove it or not) and battery (whether you can hot-swap it or not)
<Oksana>
In N900, there were white LEDs for keyboard, red LED in the back... In Neo900, the keyboard (6), privacy (1), and other LEDs are going to be RGB :)
<Oksana>
Laser...
<Nokiabot>
I got an idea from a mod i did earlier night on my jxd's screen and i think it would be hard on the n900 as the display is not reachable easisly
<Oksana>
Find a small-ish laser pointer and use it instead of stylus?
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:search for jxd 661 its an oldish sexy looking mp4 player .as it got a power led that runs all the time i scavenged it got a led from a damaged display and strip put wires and stationed them next to display and voila it kinda got that always on lpm display :p
<Nokiabot>
Its just amazing now the lcd is always on without using any additional power
<Nokiabot>
if a led can be put on one side of the display on the neo900 it would be just amazing low poweq mode
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:kinda that btw it would do nothing more then lighting up the lcd faintly ;)
<Oksana>
Or low-power LED display like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_display ? Maybe, you could attach it to hacker bus, and it would even work and show something.
<Oksana>
Depends on laser diode. High-power laser diode would burn paper and wood, at least.
<Oksana>
Though, proper power supply would be required for that...
<Oksana>
And even low-power laser diode can damage eyes, if pointed at them ;)
<Nokiabot>
Oksana dont know about that and that led hack i did is just a mod;)
<Oksana>
LED diode and LED display are safe :) Laser diode (like, in CD-DVD-reader-writer) are not safe.
<Nokiabot>
Has to run.
<Oksana>
Good day!
Nokiabot has quit [Quit: used jmIrc]
<drathir>
led only if not infra red i guess...
<drathir>
and ultra violet one too...
<Oksana>
Yes, infrared led for infrared communication :) All 'human-visible' leds in neo900 are rgb, afaik. No ultraviolet led, as far as I remember.
<drathir>
flash light one short time is fine, but long one exposure eye on it isnt good idea...
* drathir
remember concert with bb flashing notify lights, a lot of ppl that was looks so great...
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
<Nokiabot>
Pooh
<Nokiabot>
Oksana:ping
Nokiabot has quit [Client Quit]
krobelus_ has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
Kabouik has joined #neo900
arcean has joined #neo900
che1 has joined #neo900
modem has joined #neo900
modem has joined #neo900
kolp has joined #neo900
raccoon_ has joined #neo900
krobelus_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
mvaenskae has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
Pali has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: there are no plans to have MTD16 in Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
please don't take every word I say as part of a official specification
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually almost nothing I say here is binding
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless I clearly state otherwise
<kerio>
and *this* is binding
<DocScrutinizer05>
YES
<DocScrutinizer05>
[official statement] only specially marked statements are binding and reliable, everything else is just chat and subject to change or not even hold any relevance
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
all the more when somebody comes suggesting a lightning detector chip, that's much appreciated input but doesn't mean that we will even consider it for inclusion to Neo900
<kerio>
pls add a coffee maker to the neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's kinda binding is e.g. the great block diagrams werner produced (and hopefully will finally publish an improved augmented html version with lots of nice features today)
<DocScrutinizer05>
kerio: sudo make me a sandwich
<kerio>
we can have coffee pour out of the stylus slot
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, and the fresh water tube we'll connect to the AV connector
<kerio>
perfect
<kerio>
we could have a battery/coffee grounds combo
<DocScrutinizer05>
sincw we got thermocouple in stylus, it even can controll the coffee temperature *in cup*. Which other coffeemaker machine can do THAT?
* DocScrutinizer05
runs visiting his patent lawyer
<bencoh>
wait, what ?
<bencoh>
ohwell
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
never hear of the famous battery with nuilt-in coffee grinder?
<DocScrutinizer05>
built-in*
mvaenskae has quit [Quit: leaving]
astr has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
obsed has joined #neo900
<bencoh>
with coffee all over when they explode ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
George Clooney using the one-way batteries, with 5 cups of espresso built in. 19 different flavors available
<DocScrutinizer05>
my poor patent lawyer. Needs to do another unsolicited nightshift today ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually excellent material to base a youtube mock up promo on it
<DocScrutinizer05>
a tiny bit of photoshopping and a new voice synced over it, and done
<wpwrak>
or to start a kickstarter project ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
* kolp
wonders what's wrong with a lightning detector in the neo900 :p
astr has joined #neo900
<wpwrak>
kolp: lame. make it a _charger_ :) when a storm is coming, the neo900 owners go out, extract the pointy lightning antenna, and raise their neo900 to the sky ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
kolp: nothing wrong, except cost (in money, real estate, R&D effort) to benefit ratio
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually your ears and eyes are the better lightning detector
<kolp>
I'd be interested in offline 'weather detection' e.g. when being in the great outdoors far from network coverage
<kolp>
40km is a distance that most of the time cannot be achieved with ears and eyes only
<kolp>
but I understand your point of costs/R&D, etc
<kolp>
GLONASS + GPS is one of the reasons why I look forward to the neo900 -> outdoor stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can add lightning sensor to hackerbus. That's one very good example why we got hackerbus, after all
<kolp>
yes, I'll look into that when the time comes
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're not building phonebloks device since that's a hoax, but we offer hw customization via hackerbus - we even did consider that way before the name Jolla and "TOH" been invented
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
paulk-aldrin has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
~listvalues bloks
<infobot>
Factoid search of 'bloks' by value returned no results.
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wiki phonebloks
<infobot>
At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonebloks (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{merge to|Project Ara|discuss=Talk:Phonebloks#Importance|date=April 2014}} {{Infobox mobile phone | name = Phonebloks | image = Phoneblokslogo.png | type = Smartphone | form = Bar | input = Touchscreen display | website = {{Official website|http://phonebloks.com}} }} 'Phonebloks' is a modular smartphone concept created and designed by the Dutch designer Dave Hakkens, primarily to ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Phonebloks is a modular smartphone concept created and designed by the Dutch **designer** Dave Hakkens...<<
* DocScrutinizer05
wonders whether to change professional career completely towards inventing castles in the air like phonebloks. won't generate any usable result but at least earns DocScrutinizer05 a lot of money and maybe even entertains a lot of people
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus: batteries with coffee capsules integrated! OHYEAH!
<DocScrutinizer05>
all the green folks will go MAD at that concept, for humongous amount of waste it produces. Which is already very good PR for the whole hoax ;-)
<bencoh>
(you've got to admit the idea is interesting, even though it's non feasible ;)
<bencoh>
(a "phonebloks"-like neo900)
<bencoh>
openhw blocks
* DocScrutinizer05
kinda feels in a "L. Ron Hubbard" mood
<DocScrutinizer05>
"if *I* were interested in making money, I'd found my own religion" <quote L.R.Hubbard, from a time he still earned his money as writer of stories>
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
((idea is interesting)) just like having cars powered by a mini atomic reactor is an interesting idea
<wpwrak>
google are making a phonebloxy thing that actually makes a bit of sense. you just shouldn't expect it to yield a competitive smartphone ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or like towns on ground of oceans are
<bencoh>
:)
<wpwrak>
but as far as blue sky research goes, they seem to be on a good track. whenever they hit a problem, they throw whatever resources it takes at it until it's solved.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: c'mon, the concept CANNOT make any sense. See just the trouble we run into for simply separating modem from SoC
<DocScrutinizer05>
wouldn't that just qualify as "cellar"?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: the concept makes sense if you consider the smartphone just a platform with a real-life angle. if what you're really are is developing the technology, then why not. maybe they'll then use that stuff in their data centers.
<wpwrak>
cellar and attic, finally united ;-)
<wpwrak>
s/really are/really after/
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I never got the catch how gravity or some substitute for it is supposed to get handled in Dyson sphere. Obviously rotation/zentripedal-force is a lame approach
<DocScrutinizer05>
gravity of central star is negligible
<wpwrak>
make it a dyson swarm of platforms. make them orbit on crossing paths such that they never collide :)
<wpwrak>
depends on how close you get :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
Dyson spheres are the most nonsensical fusion reactor design ever seen
<DocScrutinizer05>
and how you're going to vent the "exhaust fumes" from the star?
<wpwrak>
i already fail to see the use case. use all the energy output of your star - for what ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup, exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
completely nonsensical solution for a problem that doesn't exist
<DocScrutinizer05>
and factually unfeasible as well. Just calculate the amount of material you'd need. Where from you get that?
<wpwrak>
seems to come from the same corner as SETI. listen carefully for ... high-powered AM transmissions ?
<wpwrak>
mine everything that orbits the star ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, at least they also look for FM afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
and phase key shifting
<DocScrutinizer05>
(mine) won't suffice for 0.0001% of what you need
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need the material of another few dozen complete solar systems
<DocScrutinizer05>
incl stars ;-P
<wpwrak>
dunno. the spheres my be fairly thin. also, they wouldn't really be a solid sphere, but as i said a swarm of things
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh well
<wpwrak>
i guess that's when those berserker probes come in handy :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
a swarm fails to qualify as Dyson sphere
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise our solar system already would be sort of a Dyson sphere
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<wpwrak>
just imagine the gravitational forces working on a solid sphere. pretty clear that this couldn't possibly fly
<wpwrak>
so the dysonists have updated their sci-fi
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think the key features of Dyson spheres are: completely closed surface to the outside. Primary "activity" surface is on the inside
<DocScrutinizer05>
wasn't the construction hall in HGTTG a Dyson sphere?
<wpwrak>
btw, any thought on Jolla ? do we love/hate/admire/pity them ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
pity, mostly ;-)
<wpwrak>
good :)
<wpwrak>
i might bump into some jolla folks these days, so i was curious about what to say
<DocScrutinizer05>
they had to sacrifice proper open hw design for a compromise on cost and formfactor
<DocScrutinizer05>
now they're between a rock and a hard place
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a low level closed blob that's based on android basically
<bencoh>
wpwrak: you're free to say what you think ... unless Neo900 assimilates to the Borg, which I didnt know :))
<DocScrutinizer05>
I generally recommend Jolla to all Neo900 prospects who are not that much interested in FOSS properties of the whole system, but want a sleek affordable state-of-the-art device
<bencoh>
I'd rather tend to recommend those a One+One nowadays ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what do you prefer? sailfish or cyanogen?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I for one prefer *linux* ;-)
<bencoh>
I havent tried sailfish UI, and I usually cant stand andro* UIs ... so I'm not really one to talk, and from a software engineer point of view, they're both ugly ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
somebody who doesn't care actually has a tough coice between one+one and Jolla
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
same here, except I tried and didn't like sailfish UI either
<DocScrutinizer05>
I generally don't like UI that's forcefed to me
<bencoh>
regarding UIs, I think what they're doing at nemo (glacier) is quite interesting ... that's the kind of stuff that might be fun on a n9/neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
stopped following roundabout a year ago, or longer
<bencoh>
when they dropped support for n900 ? ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I want my very own window manager and stuff, not being locked in to what some designer thought is "THE UI for the future and for everybody and his dog"
<DocScrutinizer05>
doesn't mean I won't use any existing window/desktop manager, but I want to have a choice, and I don't want a whole system incl all apps depending on a particular one
<bencoh>
that's the kind of thing that you end up never writing :)
<bencoh>
I've been procrastinating hildon/matchbox patches for months
<bencoh>
(mainly because I'm not really sure how to do what I want)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, matchbox is basically X11, so standard. and hildon is FOSS and pretty much tweakable anyway
<kolp>
is that nemo stuff running code or mock-ups?
<bencoh>
(swipe to controle windows, stuff like that)
<bencoh>
kolp: they actually have some code around
<bencoh>
some people even tried it on jolla
<kolp>
nice
<kolp>
what's the 'native' device? n9?
<bencoh>
I think so
<bencoh>
(which is also why I think it shouldnt complain on neo900)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the "we're selling a product consisting of HW, a UI, and a ecosystem/SDK based on that" approach is exactly what I hate
<bencoh>
it's actually not *that* bad when the ecosystem is modular and you can replace everything
<DocScrutinizer05>
it never is
<bencoh>
a bit of coherence doesnt hurt
<bencoh>
yeah I know :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the 2we are doing the Ui and SDK for you" is what allows manuf to keep the hw details closed, and also get away with blobs for system stuff
<bencoh>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you're histage of the manuf, in the end of the day
<DocScrutinizer05>
hostage*
<DocScrutinizer05>
the HUGE unique point of Neo900 is that it's open in that regard
<MonkeyofDoom>
yeah, it's incredibly hard to get people to care about blobs
<MonkeyofDoom>
but blobs-or-open is really what determines the limits of what you can do with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<MonkeyofDoom>
I was kinda excited back in the day about the first kickstarter Ubuntu phone until they finally mentioned in a footnote that they weren't going to commit to open drivers
<MonkeyofDoom>
at which point, fuck 'em :P
<bencoh>
haha :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 UG _not_ delivering a OS is not only a decision due to lack of manpower. It's actually also a policy / philosophy decision. This way we have no way to get away with closed blobs on any level
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's zilch data of whatever form (except the schematics) you need from Neo900 UG to make the device work. Otherwise we couldn't sell the devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
this *guarantees* the device is open
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, except maybe the frimwares you might have to upload to wlan chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even that is already REed afaik
<MonkeyofDoom>
is the wlan chip picked? wl1251?
<DocScrutinizer05>
1273
<DocScrutinizer05>
WG7351 module
freemangordon_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<MonkeyofDoom>
I've had a few firmware hangs requiring reboots in the past w/ the N900's wl1251
<MonkeyofDoom>
RE'd firmware for the neo900 chip sounds nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you won't have to reboot Neo900, you always can power cycle the WLAN module without shutting down the whole system
<MonkeyofDoom>
ideally someone would just be very careful putting together the state machine in the firmware ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(REed fw) no idea, I thought for 1251 it been REed
<MonkeyofDoom>
but robustness in depth is good :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
sort of REed at least. but i might be wrong
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway it's not like we had a secret proprietary version of the WL1273 FW we could provide or not provide to users
<MonkeyofDoom>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
we may ship the most recent version of such firmware with the device, if the module manuf provides such FW version to us
<DocScrutinizer05>
but there won't be stuff we 'own' and don't hand out to users
<obsed>
i wonder if replicant would ship those firmwares too
<DocScrutinizer05>
replicant is a FOSS project
<obsed>
ahh right so fsf is quite strict
<obsed>
i dont think any mobile phone wifi chip even exists that meets their requirements hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
they will refer to the original source of the firmware (whatever it is, DL URL on neo900.org or the uSD that ships with device), just like every other FOSS project does
<obsed>
yep
<obsed>
that makes sense
<obsed>
sounds good
freemangordon_ has joined #neo900
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
we *might* need to implement a "please enter IMEI" 'authentication' before you can download such firmware, since it might be restricted to provide it only to owners of the WLAN module
<DocScrutinizer05>
I cannot tell for sure yet, since we haven't seen the contract the WLAN modules come with
<freemangordon>
I used that device to test upstream kernels and whatnot
<freemangordon>
so it is not unexpected
<freemangordon>
ok, lets see if my installation instructions still work :D (cssu-thumb)
<bencoh>
:]
<freemangordon>
oh, how cute, it asks me to install a new kernel :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
makes some sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw did you get around to checking DM3730 SiErr DS if we're thinb-safe on Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
thumb-safe*
<freemangordon>
no
<freemangordon>
...frees 36.6 MB of device memory :P
Nokiabot has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
Kabouik has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I wonder if we *want* thimb for a dvice with 1GB RAM and 512MB NAND and system on eMMC
<DocScrutinizer05>
thumb*
<freemangordon>
sure we want
<freemangordon>
there is only gain
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc thimb is smaller but not necessarily faster
<freemangordon>
we don;t need to be faster
<Nokiabot>
Docscrutinizer05 why woud neox00 need thumb we got twice the processing power na ?? Btw some also say thumb code is inferior etc anyway i didnt notice any degraded perfomance in n900 though . It is actually better not placebo :p
<Nokiabot>
Ah my reply was so late :p
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: think about code cache
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokiabot: on N900 it's fater since we are short on RAM and heavy on IO banmdwidth
<DocScrutinizer05>
faster*
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus thumb binaries are loeded faster^2 since less to read in and less to swap out
<DocScrutinizer05>
runtime only swap makes thumb faster
<Nokiabot>
Docscrutinizer05 so what are the gains on neox00 then ?? I can think of same emmc i/o
<DocScrutinizer05>
on Neo900 we have 4 times the RAM available, so no much swapping expected
<Nokiabot>
With a gb will there be swapp actually needed ??
<Nokiabot>
Aha
<DocScrutinizer05>
while Neo900 might be marginally slower on startup of a non-thumbified binary compared to thumb on N900, it for sure won't benefit from smaller RAM footprint
<Nokiabot>
Haha
<freemangordon>
code cache ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what code cache?
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah CPU code cache
<Nokiabot>
What is code catch
<freemangordon>
yep, cpu code cache
<DocScrutinizer05>
good point
<freemangordon>
I know
<DocScrutinizer05>
how much costs a cache miss?
<freemangordon>
smaller code puts less presure on it
<freemangordon>
as much as reading from RAM :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, but how much is that?
<Nokiabot>
That l2 l3 catche like thingy you taking about @freemangordon
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<freemangordon>
no, l1
<DocScrutinizer05>
:)
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: we have l2 cache, but I have no idea how it is clocked
<Nokiabot>
Haha never heard L1 :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, yes, might make sense. The question rather might be: why NOT use thumb?
<bencoh>
exactly, why not ?
<Nokiabot>
Humm
<freemangordon>
also, iirc 3730 cache line size is 32byts vs 64 on 3430. or was it omap4 with 32 bytes???
<Nokiabot>
Because addition headache of maintaining it :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
wut?
<bencoh>
especially since a time-critical lib could still be built withouth thumb
<bencoh>
-h
<freemangordon>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
bencoh: how's that a problem?
<bencoh>
DocScrutinizer05: it's not, that's my point :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:)
<Nokiabot>
Imean additional headache of maintaining thum so diverting devel power
<DocScrutinizer05>
so, freemangordon please check DM3730 SiErr
<freemangordon>
though while I was measuring REed PA functions performance it turned out that they are slightly faster when compiled with -mthumb
<bencoh>
freemangordon: hmm by the way, does the spec (and/or ABI) say anything about mixing thumb/non-thumb in a same executable ?
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: not, not
<freemangordon>
yep
<bencoh>
or is there a compiler limitation here ?
<bencoh>
what does it say ?
<freemangordon>
no, you can freeoly mix arm/thumb code
<freemangordon>
*freely
<DocScrutinizer05>
not, not?
<bencoh>
neat
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer: I meant "not now"
<freemangordon>
:)
che1 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<freemangordon>
my devel device if working, I am going to have something to eat and will try to find why freshly REed PA -record module asserts :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
((freely mix)) unless you got SiErr
<freemangordon>
afterwards
<freemangordon>
yep
<freemangordon>
though, the cores that are affected by thumb errata are not used in 3730 afaik
<Nokiabot>
If swap put to usb /emmc it will eat IO so neox00 got any plans for dedicated swap chip or like simply a sd inside docscrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's neox?
louisdk has joined #neo900
che1 has joined #neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there's no such thing like "swap chip"
<Nokiabot>
Neo900@docscrutnizer and you named that :bash:
<bencoh>
swap chip ?
<Nokiabot>
Aha dedicated flash chip i mean
<Nokiabot>
And neox00 sounds definately better than 900 :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
we won't worry about swap, with 1GB of true fast RAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, it sounds like closet cleanser
<bencoh>
:D
<Nokiabot>
Haha i told earlier 1 gb is huge
<Nokiabot>
Then there need to be a thumb repo for nxx0
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf nxx0?
<Nokiabot>
Damm n900 neo900 @docscrutinizer05
<Nokiabot>
I dont know of any thumb infra for now
<DocScrutinizer05>
please leave that to repo maintainers!
<Nokiabot>
Aha
<Nokiabot>
Good luck !
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh! strt your own repo if you don't like the existing ones!
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't tell devels what they have to do
<Nokiabot>
Best of the day : microsofty today announced a package manager for win 10 after virtual dextop and other stuffs !
<Nokiabot>
BWAWAWA
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 anyway will be compatoble with all N900 repos
<Nokiabot>
Docscrutinizer05 lol i am talking of repos like extras maemo ssu like repos anyway leave that topic
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what? me too
<Nokiabot>
Na only the bullsitery i utterd @docscrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
can't parse
<Nokiabot>
Dont need to :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
and starting to feel hungry and thus grumpy
<DocScrutinizer05>
bbl o/
<Nokiabot>
Night guys
<Nokiabot>
bbl/o
Kabouik has joined #neo900
<Nokiabot>
bbl o/
<Nokiabot>
Kabouik?????
<Kabouik>
Nokiabot ?
<Nokiabot>
Kabouik :good night
<Nokiabot>
:P
<Kabouik>
Thanks, good evening to you Nokiabot
<Nokiabot>
Thanx :)
Pali has joined #neo900
mvaenskae has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Nokiabot has quit [Quit: jmIrc destroyed by the OS]
silviof has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.0]
b1101 has quit [Quit: b1101]
paulk-aldrin has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
paulk-aldrin has joined #neo900
b1101 has joined #neo900
arcean has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
jonwil has joined #neo900
silviof has joined #neo900
<kolp>
(diagram) two SIM slots?
xes has joined #neo900
astr has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
b1101 has quit [Quit: b1101]
b1101 has joined #neo900
b1101 has quit [Quit: b1101]
astr has joined #neo900
louisdk has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Svetlana has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
Alright, alright, I was just dreaming :) About MFD16. Multi-functionality is nice to dream about...
<Oksana>
"actually excellent material to base a youtube mock up promo on it" :)
<Oksana>
"when a storm is coming, the neo900 owners go out, extract the pointy lightning antenna, and raise their neo900 to the sky" Do not forget ground-wire, because the excessive electricity has to go somewhere. The battery cannot swallow the whole lightning, only a tiny part of it. :) And make sure you (human) are not part of the ground-wire ;)
fw190 has joined #neo900
norly has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
"you can add lightning sensor to hackerbus." Hmm... Would be interesting.
<wpwrak>
Oksana: (ground wire) the new fashion with tin foil hats will be to have a long tail, preferably made of copper ;-)
<wpwrak>
and people will be encouraged to do a lot of physical exercise, so their skin is sweaty and thus conductive :)
<Oksana>
Long copper tail... Actually a good idea; I think that most of the lightning will go to the ground by copper, then, thought the human might get a little shock, still.
<Oksana>
Two SIM slots, yes. You (user) can choose which of them is for cellular modem and which of them is for NFC chip.
<Oksana>
Wait, why is eMMC 32GB? It should be 64GB? Update?
<DocScrutinizer51>
huh?
<kolp>
Oksana: are you on the N900 page?
<Oksana>
Yes. Interactive html page is ... confusing.
<DocScrutinizer51>
and that diagram is supposed to have 64GB eMMC
<Oksana>
Do you mean that *bold* is N900 specs, and not-bold is Neo900 specs ?
<DocScrutinizer51>
THAT indeed is confusing
<DocScrutinizer51>
told wpwrak :-P
<Oksana>
*eMMC (32 GB; THGBM1G8D8EBAI2)* Note: size still to be confirmed.
<Wizzup>
that is confusing :)
norly has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
norly has joined #neo900
<wpwrak>
okay okay, will be fixed in the next release :)
<Oksana>
Why does the diagram turn white when images are disabled? Ah, background image. Because some elements are too complicated to be crafted in HTML-CSS-colours. Alright :)
<wpwrak>
the diagram is an xfig drawing. i wouldn't want to make diagrams in CSS ;-)
<Oksana>
Well, if it was just rectangles, CSS-coloured HTML-divs would have fared well enough.
<Oksana>
But it is more complicated than that :)
nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
nox- has joined #neo900
<Oksana>
Good morning!
<DocScrutinizer51>
is that some automatism?
<drathir>
hi...
<DocScrutinizer51>
hi
<jonwil>
IMO SVG is the way to go for a diagram like this
<Oksana>
Not automatism, just running along and reading the channels :)
<Oksana>
SVG can be good... And it can be ugly. XFig can export SVG. What would it look like?
<Oksana>
wpwrak mentioned that diagram was done in xfig. What would SVG export look like?..
<DocScrutinizer51>
well, a 'good morning' 10 min after your last post looks weird
<DocScrutinizer51>
~ugt
<infobot>
i heard ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
<wpwrak>
i could export as svg. but i wonder how that would mix with the CSS. CSS loves pixel coordinates ...
<wpwrak>
and if you want to scale, there's the PDF
<Oksana>
SVG would work with pixel coordinates, as well. The difference: you can select text in SVG.
<Oksana>
And PDF would not be interactive...
nicksydney has joined #neo900
<wpwrak>
hmmm. just trying it. pixel coordinates yes. but very different pixel coordinates :)
<wpwrak>
also the fonts don't look quite right
<wpwrak>
and at least with chromium, no selectable text
<DocScrutinizer51>
honestly
<wpwrak>
dunno whether this is fig2dev not supporting inclusion of text as text in svg, or chromium not knowing how to use it
<DocScrutinizer51>
enjoy that great interactive 'spec' !
<wpwrak>
same issue with firefox. i think i'll stick with PNG :)
paulk-aldrin has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
<wpwrak>
fonts look better in firefox, though. so svg also adds font issues to the mix. always nice to have ;-)
<Oksana>
:) Where can I see experimental SVG version? Oh, and bug: Ring Switch tooltip is too small-transparent.
<wpwrak>
and konqueror doesn't seem to like svg at all - i just get a white screen. nicely uncluttered, though :)
<Oksana>
height:64px; Shouldn't it be more like 128px for Ring Switch tooltip?
<Oksana>
White... To see the diagram, I have to enable both colors and images.
<Oksana>
Usually, I have both colors and images disabled (Firefox). Nice :)
<wpwrak>
btw, the png still looks okay at 200% magnification. gets a bit silly at 500% though. but if need that zoom level, then you'd probably not mind the few distortions.
djang0o has left #neo900 [#neo900]
<wpwrak>
(enable) i usually enable everything that's not outright offensive, so it's probably a genuine limitation of konqueror, not a settings issue
<Oksana>
:)
<wpwrak>
(64 px) apparently not :) the whole PNG is 893 pixels high
<Oksana>
Does konqueror have a bug with transparency?
<wpwrak>
the size is chosen such that you get more or less everything on a HTDV-sized monitor. there may still be a bit of scrolling, depending on real screen size, type of browser, and so on.
<wpwrak>
(konq) dunno. i don't use it much these days. the bits i tried looked reasonable, but that doesn't exclude problems elsewhere
<Oksana>
I am speaking about height of tooltip. It's difficult to read.
<Oksana>
Because while first two lines of this tooltip are on good white background, the rest is barely visible on transparent background.
<Oksana>
Ring Switch tooltip
<wpwrak>
hmm, not sure what you mean. what browser are you using ?
<wpwrak>
and there should be no transparency on the pop-ups. not sure if these are what you call "tooltip" or if your browser shows something else
<DocScrutinizer51>
I checked the whole thing in konq
<DocScrutinizer51>
worked
<wpwrak>
yes, should be find in chromium, firefox, and konqueror
<wpwrak>
finE
<DocScrutinizer51>
otherwise it wouldn't be public yet
<DocScrutinizer51>
i think there been 5percewnt transparency on popups
<wpwrak>
no idea about IE and iBrowse (safari ?). but i tried to stay clear of browser-specific tricks.
<DocScrutinizer51>
mentioned that
<wpwrak>
i removed that transparency, so they're 100% opaque now
<Oksana>
((Clear of browser-specific tricks)) Good!
<DocScrutinizer51>
afk
<Oksana>
((Cached)) Checking
<wpwrak>
17.0.9 ?? wow :) that must be old. i gave 32.0.3
<wpwrak>
#s/gave/have/
<Oksana>
The problem still here. Mic Itf, too.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer51: (caches) no, i removed the transparency long before moving things to their current place
<Oksana>
What's the best way to share an image? Without advertisement, and with one-day (or less) expiry?
<Oksana>
CPU and WLAN, for example, are nice.
<Oksana>
Kbd scan isn't nice.
<Oksana>
Vibrator is not nice, either.
<Oksana>
I mean the tooltips for these elements.
<wpwrak>
ah, firefox went to an accelerated versioning scheme. so 17.0.9 is ... about a year old.
<wpwrak>
found an old 3.0.19 :) things look weird there indeed. they're not just a little off but completely messed up
<wpwrak>
seems that pop-ups that pop upwards don't work there
<wpwrak>
let's see if this is fixable ...
<wpwrak>
seems that overriding CSS settings with more specific settings doesn't work there
<wpwrak>
i.e., overriding #v2 li:hover div div with #v2 li:hover div.t_v2_Ring_switch div
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: please don't try to fix stuff to oblivion
<Oksana>
:)
<Oksana>
If I am lucky, I will get Firefox 24 soon. Within a month... It's just like chargers: wait until you forget why you were waiting for it.
<wpwrak>
naw, looks doable. will make the CSS a bit bigger. but nothing overly terrible
<wpwrak>
normally i would say "upgrade your browser", but just 1 year isn't all that old. i have older stuff where i'm annoyed if something doesn't work
<Pali>
shit I'm getting cyclic HTTP redirects on TMO
kolp has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Pali>
opening NSA chrome browser...
<wpwrak>
Pali: (cyclic redirects) with which browser ?
<Pali>
rekonq
<DocScrutinizer05>
already enough info for searching and configuring/patching drivers for: LIS302, BMS150, BMG160, BMP180
<Pali>
NSA chrome browser working
<bencoh>
:]
<bencoh>
did you run it in a vm ?
<wpwrak>
let's see how rekonq fares here ... DocScrutinizer05: toldya redirects were trouble :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
forget it
<DocScrutinizer05>
tmo is not neo900.org
<Pali>
no :-( but I will preapre scripts+infra for starting apps with KVM
<wpwrak>
aah ! right
<wpwrak>
ETOOMANYSITES :)
<Pali>
and chromium-browser (which I have) is still open source
<Pali>
nice diagrams!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have some *nasty* rewrites for static.maemo.org
<wpwrak>
rekonq should work fine
<Pali>
hm... N900 has ECI chip?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: IRQs of above lsted sensors are sorta ... non-standard
<Pali>
so there is way to implement support for eci headets for n900?
<wpwrak>
Pali: that's a whole subcircuit. a box is sometimes more than one chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
N900 has hardware labeled "ECI", yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, should work
<Pali>
some nokia ee told me that on n900 it is not possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
did he say why?
<Pali>
somewhere I have email with details...
<Pali>
going to find it
<DocScrutinizer05>
pretty please forward
<wpwrak>
that would be *very* interesting indeed, now that we (think we ... well, joerg) figured out how it works ;-)
<Pali>
"But anyway, there is no needed hw in N900, so no driver either."
<DocScrutinizer05>
I suspect it's just a "oohnoes, it will fail to implement the 2.7kR termination, it's only 2.2kR"
<DocScrutinizer05>
Mokia said USB hist is "totally completely impossible on N900" either
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokia, even
<Pali>
"The Jack itself is similar [N95], I mean the connector pinout. But in N900 there is no HW for ECI. In N95 and N9 there is."
<DocScrutinizer05>
host*
<DocScrutinizer05>
BS
<Pali>
maybe nokia do not know hw parts which are in n900...
<wpwrak>
i think one of the next things i'll want to do is color-code upper and lower. maybe get rid of heritage for it. seems that this will become useful soon. (e.g., i just wondered whether ECI and NFC might be on the same board)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I compared N9, N95 and N900, there's no differneces that couldn't get handled in one way or another
<wpwrak>
Pali: neo900 could start complaining about your forgetfulness when you've moved > 2 m if stylus is neither inserted or has been used recently :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's just a GPIO (with IRQ option) that's 1 when stylus pluged in and 0 when not
<Pali>
wpwrak :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: stylus/finger detection in touch panel is poor
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly when you're using fingernail
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is basically indistinguishable from stylus
<DocScrutinizer05>
microB *tries* to tell apart finger from stylus. Fails more often than succeeds
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: solution: optimize the UI such that it's truly impossible to use with fingers :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: can you help me out spotting the basic functions for accessing hw in that ECI kernel driver?
norly has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Pali>
how will battery hotswap work on neo900? will it have another battery which will power device when main is unplugged?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: we have a two voltage level sensors and a ADC input for mic line on N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
(battswap) no, only some huge buffer capacitor, *iff* we can implement it
<DocScrutinizer05>
biffer capacitor shall suffice to power CPU and other *core* components for 0.2s..0.5s
<Pali>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
while stuff like LCD backlight, WLAN, modem, all suffer brownout and need restart
<DocScrutinizer05>
modem can survive a 0.5s brownout and recover
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yes, just adding the app note ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
wlan will need fw reload, the complete treatment
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: hm?
<wpwrak>
(app note) ... done. will be in the next version. Pali: thanks !
<Pali>
LIS302DL accelerometer has two interrupt lines?
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, for etk8foo8
<DocScrutinizer05>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(lis302) yes
<wpwrak>
SMIA95
<DocScrutinizer05>
even in N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet the kernel devels ignored that
<DocScrutinizer05>
"don't need that. too complicated"
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, Nokia's LIS302 driver not even uses filters
<Pali>
"The LIS302DL may also be configured to generate an inertial Wake-Up and Free-Fall interrupt signal accordingly to a programmed acceleration event along the enabled axes. Both Free-Fall and Wake-Up can be available simultaneously on two different pins." from datasheet
<DocScrutinizer05>
that kernel driver is nice skeleton, but unfinished
<Pali>
I think that pavelm wrote some parts of lis driver
<DocScrutinizer05>
Pali: I know the datasheet, almost as good as the bq27200 one