avsm changed the topic of #mirage to: mirage 2 released! party on!
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<engil>
\o\
<yomimono>
|o|
<yomimono>
engil: are you in a position to run unpurecamelbot for the meeting, or do you want someone else to lead it in and feed it?
<engil>
I can!
<yomimono>
yay!
<engil>
I woke up for that
<yomimono>
oof
<yomimono>
rough stuff
<engil>
7am, it's okay
<engil>
I know understand the suffering of being Mirage's outreachy intern, poor wiredsister :(
<engil>
s/know/now/
<yomimono>
luckily for her, she's mostly in eastern time these days -- 5 hour time difference is much less painful than 8
<engil>
ha!
<wiredsister>
I'm here!
<wiredsister>
and yes, in eastern timezone
<wiredsister>
less painful
<wiredsister>
morning engil and yomimono
<engil>
morning!
<yomimono>
morning wiredsister! :D
<engil>
I need to fix the bot so it's useful
<Drup>
wiredsister: you don't want to enjoy the charming english weather for your internship ? :)
<engil>
charming
<engil>
*cough cough*
<wiredsister>
charming indeed. I hear you don't have a summer.
<wiredsister>
you cannot fool me.
<engil>
a british summer
* engil
remember almost dying from hay fever a week ago
<Drup>
I do, but still not sure about cambridge :p
<engil>
cambridge in spring, never again.
<wiredsister>
although, if we hammer out dates for this hackathon, I may attempt to brave the weather.
<yomimono>
Cambridge in July is secretly lovely
<yomimono>
don't tell anyone!
<Khady>
how is the summer in Paris different from the one in Cambridge this year Drup?
<Drup>
Khady: if you have to ask, you don't realize how is cambridge's summer :D
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<unpurecamelbot>
I like utf-8
<Drup>
<yomimono>
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<engil>
he likes to write utf-8, reading is fine
<engil>
(the message should contain some emoji, but does not, for some reason.)
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<hannes>
today at lunchtime was british summer... I guess its over now..
<yomimono>
it's summer! We have the windows open in the office and there's no fog coming in them!
<yomimono>
I can see shadows outside and there's some kind of yellow thing in the sky!
<yomimono>
(in addition to the usual gray things. obviously.)
<wiredsister>
I suppose you have to take your victories where you can.
<yomimono>
I can see people walking around *holding their jumpers* instead of wearing them!
<Khady>
Fog and no sun, looks like beijing, but for different reasons
<engil>
is it actual fog ?
<engil>
or pollution induced evil ?
<Drup>
in beijing, polution
<Khady>
It depends if your source is the chinese gouvernement or a foreign one
<Drup>
in cambridge, it's the amount of steam produced by all the tea being made. that's why there is more fog at fixed hours in the afternoun.
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<Drup>
:D
<hannes>
oh damn, there's again such a meeting today.. and I'll have to catch a train in the middle of it
<hannes>
just to let the IRC know, versioned modules: still not sure where they should be needed, but I'm in the middle of doing an experiment (adjusting module type RANDOM) and see why/how/whether they're useful...
<yomimono>
hm, so you'll make a V2 with a new definition of RANDOM?
<hannes>
no
<yomimono>
and same definitions of other module types as V1? or just with RANDOM in it?
<hannes>
no
<yomimono>
cool, I was hoping to be wrong on the internet today :P
<hannes>
I'll adjust what we have and see whether there is trouble in updating it (as thomas and thomas proposed)
<yomimono>
ah, ok
<hannes>
alternatively, we could version function names as well... read_v1, read_v2, read_v1_point_5
<yomimono>
enterprisey
<hannes>
I'm just slow 'coz I want to finish this signing before monday to have an updated paper with working code.. thus random experiment was deferreed to next week
<yomimono>
that's cool, I think many of us who are working at WhaleCo are very busy this week too
<hannes>
yomimono: and sorry for the extensive blurb on the arp thingy on github...
<yomimono>
so if you want folks to share your update pain it may be best to delay until around 22 June :P
<yomimono>
hannes: oh no, very much appreciated; it's not worth it to merge the wrong thing
<yomimono>
I'm a bit PR-happy at the moment because I can finally rebase a bunch of stuff and put it in the wild without making a ton more work for myself later
<reynir>
o/
<yomimono>
hi reynir!
<reynir>
Hi!
<reynir>
I remembered the meeting this time (I ususally forget) :)
<hannes>
reynir: \o/
<hannes>
engil: I have to hit my canopy every third day... does yours on unix also suffer from some memory leaking?
<yomimono>
avsm asked me to convey some items on the first point, "quality and test"
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<yomimono>
BEGIN QUOTE:
<yomimono>
Docker containers: There's been a big refresh of the containers hosted at the Docker Hub:
<yomimono>
- OPAM2 is now supported via docker run -it ocaml/opam-dev. This is a mirror of the ocaml/opam namespace, except that OPAM2dev is installed and the local OPAM repository upgraded to the new format (compilers-as-packages). Please try it out and experiment with OPAM2 and report bugs back to the issue tracker.
<yomimono>
- Deprecated: Ubuntu 15.10 (in favour of LTS Ubuntu 16.10).
<yomimono>
END QUOTE, sorry for the spam :)
<reynir>
16.04*
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<yomimono>
is 16.04 the LTS version, not 16.10?
<mato>
It ain't 10/2016 yet :)
* noddy
appears
<yomimono>
...that's a pretty good point
<reynir>
I believe 16.04 is LTS and I don't think 16.10 has been released yet (october) :)
<yomimono>
anything else about the containers on Hub?
<dinosaure>
o/
* yomimono
awkwardly waves but also gestures in a recognizing manner at dinosaure
<yomimono>
next on the agenda we have datakit prototype progress - talex5 or thomasga1, before I pastedump avsm's status did you want to give us an update?
<dbuenzli>
Daniel starts falling asleep.
<yomimono>
OK, in that case BEGIN QUOTE from avsm:
<talex5>
Not sure what this item is about. Work continues on DataKit (currently a 9p interface to Irmin).
<yomimono>
- New VM for ci.ocaml.io setup where we will have the DataKit CI UI for MirageOS.
<yomimono>
- This will be a build pipeline that uses opam-lib and the containers to test incoming Mirage libraries in real time.
<yomimono>
- Two Cambridge interns joining us for the summer in July (Joel and Ciaran) who will hack on the web UI and scheduler, so it's ready before ICFP.
<yomimono>
- TWiOPAM: works now, but not yet hooked up to run regularly. Any thoughts on where to publish this output would be useful -- should we push it to Canopy weekly for Mirage libraries?
<yomimono>
END QUOTE
<thomasga1>
No progress for me.
<yomimono>
I think we don't have Joel or Ciaran here, so possibly we should just move on before dbuenzli dies of boredom
<yomimono>
Mirage 3!
<yomimono>
we had a mail thread where folks put some thoughts about upgrading and API changes
<thomasga1>
Who's the release manager? :-)
<yomimono>
there are some items in the call agenda that are more aimed at process, like that one :P
<yomimono>
I'm willing to do that if nobody else is keen and nobody objects to me doing it
<dbuenzli>
+1
<GemmaG>
Sounds great!
<hannes>
yomimono: +1 you doing it
<thomasga1>
yay!
<noddy>
motion accepted
<yomimono>
...right then
<GemmaG>
Thanks yomimono :)
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<yomimono>
please send me a copy of release managing for random idiots
<wiredsister>
lol
<yomimono>
I'll follow up on the mailing list thread this week
<yomimono>
and keep driving discussion thhere
<mort___>
(here, sorry late, IRC issues)
<thomasga1>
yomimono: it's easy, just do what you want
<yomimono>
any other points/suggestions/bad advice before we move on to solo5?
<hannes>
I mentioned it earlier here
<hannes>
I still don't understand this multiple versions of an interface in mirage-types (and am too stupid to follow last meetings discussions), but wanted to actually try out what it means to update an interface in mirage-types
<hannes>
nevertheless I was deferred by writing some signing code till next week...
<yomimono>
having just gone through this process for mirage-tcpip (a couple of times!), would it be useful if I just wrote up what this is like?
<thomasga1>
I think the role of the release manager is to decide on something about that after discussing with people who have an opinions
<thomasga1>
yes, writing or discussing in person/by email with the people seems a good idea
<mort___>
yomimono: i think it would be useful, yes
<noddy>
i think the question hannes is posing is rather, why have parallel version, not how to upgrade. but that discussion already happened.
<noddy>
(and i dozed over it :) )
<thomasga1>
noddy: I am still unclear what is the best approach, but I am happy to defer it to people who care/have time to think about it.
<dbuenzli>
What was the result ? Personally it seems dubious to me that you want to version interfaces at the language level.
<hannes>
noddy: did that discussion happen? the result still looks uncertain to me
<GemmaG>
Added to agenda as a resolution appeared unclear…
<dbuenzli>
You are bringing the version problem in the language. This should be left to package managers.
<noddy>
dbuenzli: hannes: exactly, the answer escapes me too. but apparently the question was asked.
<yomimono>
I think a lot of our discussion about where to surface this versioning and dependency information has centered around how painful it is to do certain operations
<hannes>
dbuenzli: exactly my point.
<dbuenzli>
Well I already made that point at least a year ago...
<noddy>
anyone mind doing tl;dr of the summary? why language-level versions, again?
<talex5>
Because once you have several implementations of an interface, and you have to change everything at once, it becomes nearly impossible to make progress.
<noddy>
so instead you ossify the entire api history and carry it forever, and constantly walk the minefied of which-exact-version-of-the-api these libs i need implement?
<yomimono>
I think this is why folks think it's useful to figure out exactly how bad the experience really is by doing it
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<yomimono>
I've been through this a few times -- a bunch of the custom network code I wrote a while ago is now unusable because of mirage-types changes, for example
<hannes>
but will multiple language-level versions help there at all?
<yomimono>
but I don't think it's worth discounting the entire approach for that reason - there are many explanations for why software doesn't get updated
<hannes>
yomimono: it is certainly usable with a mirage-types from that time..
<talex5>
Well, the V1_of_V2 functor is never going to change, so you could carry it forever. But just having the last two would help a lot.
<dbuenzli>
What needs to be understood is how much of this pain is actually due to the way Mirage's interfaces are themselves organized.
<dbuenzli>
Maybe be a bit less functory...
<yomimono>
A lot of this pain also comes from our lack of ability to specify version constraints in `config.ml` IMO
<thomasga1>
I am not sure this issue will be resolved during that meeting, but it clearly need to be resolved
<noddy>
linux kernel has a contract that kernel apis never, ever, ever change. they are only extended. as a consequence, binaries from upper paleolithic work, kernel-wise.
<noddy>
however, linux kernel mimicks a well-understood api mode, something posix-like. mirage can change violently.
<dbuenzli>
And so cruft was created
<noddy>
the greater the change, the more cruft.
<noddy>
so that is the tradeoff.
<thomasga1>
can I suggest that some people gather and write some code, and we see how it works? :-)
<talex5>
noddy: Linux has a bigger problem: clients don't specify which version they want. So changes have to be compatible.
<noddy>
fair point, yeah
<thomasga1>
(under the benevolent supervision of our new release manager)
<mort___>
thomasga1: +1
<yomimono>
hannes has already put himself on the hook for this; I've said I'll write some words
<dbuenzli>
I think it would be useful to e.g. try to turn the tcp/ip stack to the way ocaml-tls was designed, i.e. independent from mirage
<thomasga1>
I am afraid that a rewrite of the tcpip-stack is Mirage 10 instead
<yomimono>
This ties into the larger point of modules defining their own module types, I think
* hannes
hides in HOL4
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<talex5>
tcp and tls both only have one implementation, so they're the simple case.
<dbuenzli>
Well there are turns to be taken at the right moment.
<yomimono>
tcp itself, yes, but there are modules within tcp with >1 implementation
<yomimono>
like the static arp module I sneakily tried to get into master
<noddy>
talex5: but this is exactly the point. if you have foo-a and foo-b, and only foo-a moves to v.PI and boo-b is at v.E, how does that help?
<mort___>
yomimono: i think the lack of version constraints in config.ml is probably an important part of it — the gap between source (`config.ml`), tool-generated source (outputs of `mirage`) and compile/link behaviour (opam constraints and dynamic update when the `make` happens) seems to cause problems afaics
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<dbuenzli>
mort do you suggest the problem is maybe too much meta-programming crap ?
* noddy
wishes irc had the `edit` function
<mort___>
dbuenzli: too much — or not enough? ;)
<hannes>
...every problem can be solved by adding a layer of abstraction... oh dear
<mort___>
i think that the toolchain we have is still evolving
<dbuenzli>
It may even be wrong.
<mort___>
i think that the suggestion that (aiui, noted above) hannes and yomimono give this a go and see what actually happens is a good one
<djs55>
I think the mirage tool executing opam is a bit odd (and prevents opam calling mirage calling opam and deadlocking)
<yomimono>
So let's try and make a more right thing :)
<noddy>
djs55: wee need universe hierarchies
<yomimono>
possibly the right thing to do is have each mirage unikernel distribute its own opam file with depopts
<mort___>
dbuenzli: i think that for you to convince me it's wrong, first you'd have to convince me what right is
<hannes>
djs55: mirage calling opam is for sure (and being discussed over) a bad idea for several things.. (which needs some clever solution, but IMHO that does not include a V42)
<mort___>
djs55: yes; given the `make depends` target, why does it do that?
<dbuenzli>
I think that djs55 is quite pertinent I find it strange that you have to fiddle with opam.
<dbuenzli>
mort: that's not the way things work.
<hannes>
..and off to the train station
<reynir>
\o
<mort___>
yomimono: i think that having each unikernel distribute some deployment metadata in a well understood format would be entirely sensible
<dbuenzli>
otherwise we can never make criticisms before having solved the problem.
<yomimono>
I agree with djs55, and maybe now that we have functoria it's a good time to think of a more intelligent second thing to do with the mirage tool
<mort___>
dbuenzli: not asking for solution, asking what "right" would look like. equivalently: to tell me something is wrong suggests you have a well specified problem…
<yomimono>
dbuenzli, mort: take it DM please
<yomimono>
er, to DM
<noddy>
dungeon master?
<yomimono>
yes
<mort___>
(sorry)
* thomasga1
roles a dice
<yomimono>
I don't know whose thac0 is what
* noddy
jumps around with a sword
<noddy>
mine is -1
* mort___
has several swords. discussion for a different time…
<thomasga1>
well, having a better way to handle opam/mirage interactions is clearly a good idea
<yomimono>
so I think most folks agree that we have a lot of, um, opportunity in california business speak
<thomasga1>
it was a good hack at the time :p
<noddy>
all: question: do you seriously think it will be possible to maintain V_N_of_V_succ_N functors?
<noddy>
if so, then it might be a workable.. compromise? attempt?
<yomimono>
noddy: I don't know what that means?
<dbuenzli>
Ugh
<noddy>
instead of the platform implementing all the historic api versions, having small shims to downgrade
<yomimono>
Oof, I think I don't want to write them
<noddy>
hence, hacking around version incompats is as easy as slapping the downgrade shim onto the current version
<talex5>
I plan to try this with mirage-net-xen, but currently busy with DataKit.
<noddy>
if _not_, then lang-lev versions are completely wrong -- imho
<noddy>
if yes, then it could word because cruft is isolated.
<noddy>
</dungeon master>
<yomimono>
I think that proposal has a big problem once you really do want to remove something. (And it also increases demands on the developers of libraries.)
<mort___>
noddy: i doubt it. but i'm also not sure that simply specifying exact versions at the language level is great either as no-one ever gets upgraded then. (but perhaps that's not a bad thing?) but that's why trying it out is required.
<noddy>
why don't we try moving fast, breaking things, instead?
<dbuenzli>
+1
<noddy>
it's easer to start ossifying, than to stop
<mort___>
because so very many things break, all at once, and then someone's on the hook to fix them all
<noddy>
wait
<mort___>
we're not deploying a single app usually, we're "deploying" a large ecosystem of libraries
<noddy>
waitwaitwait
* yomimono
waits
<noddy>
but if you write V_succ_N, DON'T IMPLEMENT IT, then things continue working??
<noddy>
(rather, move the implementation to succ_N and leave N just in types)
<mort___>
not sure i understand what that means?
<thomasga1>
noddy: the sequence of events is: 1/ I update mirage-types to make a API breaking change 2/ I need to update all the implementation of that signature 3/ I need to change the mirage tool to be sure that we pull the right versions of signature/implementations.
<yomimono>
I think I'd need to see an example of this to form an opinion
<noddy>
i mean, what's the difference? the underlying code is evolving. leaving the versioned api hanging around doesn't really solve the issue of including all that code in a single, working unikernel?
<thomasga1>
the step between 2/ and 3/ can be veryyyy big and tedious.
<thomasga1>
which usually we don't do 1/ to not start the cycle.
<djs55>
and that's because we can't have version constraints as yomonino mentioned I think
<thomasga1>
I don't like putting version constraints in the module names at all. But I don't like not being able to move at all worst.
<yomimono>
which is because of the way we express the dependencies in mirage as djs55 mentioned
<mort___>
noddy: i think: underlying code is released as different version of component library; opam constraints are used to pull that in. but all the other tools have no visibility of that (per thomasga1 comment)
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<thomasga1>
(would be nice to be able to edit IRC sentences)
<mort___>
all: i know this is important but i'm not sure it'll be solved right here and now, and there are several other agenda items to cover — perhaps this could be taken to (eg) the list, or an issue? (full editing capabilities available!)
<thomasga1>
next!
* yomimono
pounds gavel
<thomasga1>
(I need to run soon)
<yomimono>
next up is solo5 which I bet mato and djwillia are super pumped to tell us about
<yomimono>
and ricarkol :)
<yomimono>
and anyone else I missed :P
<mato>
Ok, solo5. Good progress over the last couple of weeks. Mirage/Solo5 now has a (simplistic but working) scheduler.
<yomimono>
is there a best repo to watch for folks who want to keep up with what's happening there?
<mato>
yomimono: djwillia/solo5, I try to concentrate the issues there. But that tracking issue is your best bet for now, I'll keep updating it as I go along.
<yomimono>
mato: great, thanks!
<mato>
The other repos are djwillia/{mirage-platform,mirage,...}
<mato>
gemma (seems to have left) was asking about timing for publishing a blog post (co-authored with djwillia) about porting mirage to solo5
<yomimono>
gemma had to run but she'll get the notes here, so any answer would be appreciated I think :)
<yomimono>
the agenda notes this might be co-timed with the hackathon, so maybe it's a good time for me to paste an update from her on that?
<mato>
i think we should have a formal initial release of Mirage/Solo5 in place before we publish any blogs
<mato>
otherwise users have no "version" to target
<yomimono>
fair enough!
<mato>
my eta for that is to have things as ready for merging as possible the week before the hackathon
<mato>
and then ideally thrash out the merge to upstream while dan and myself are in cambridge
<yomimono>
that sounds like an excellent plan to me
<mato>
okay, let's go with that then. djwillia?
<djwillia>
mato: yes, sounds good to me, looking forward to it and followup on slack to help with items
<mato>
ack
<djwillia>
mato: thanks for putting together that list
<yomimono>
there's also a note here about "sync up with OPAM 2.0 items" - not sure what needs discussion here?
<djwillia>
mato: and all the awesome work you've been doing!
<yomimono>
+1!
<mato>
yomimono: as "release manager" i'll be asking you for opinions on how/where the solo5 bits should be merged, once we're closer to that point
<yomimono>
I deserve that
<mato>
:-)
<mato>
ok, done with solo5 if no one has any questions i think.
<yomimono>
next up - thomasga1, 4.03 flambda testing?
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<thomasga1>
none
<yomimono>
I saw that hannes has been adding 4.03 tests to some repositories; we could start doing that more generally
<thomasga1>
I have tried to use the new lto branch (to do dead-code elimination in native mode) but it didn't compile
<yomimono>
aw :(
<yomimono>
I want that branch.
<thomasga1>
Pierre pushed a patch so I should try it again, I'll try to do that at one point
<yomimono>
Cool. If anyone else gets time first, do send a mail to the list :)
<thomasga1>
`opam switch 4.04.0+forced_lto`
<yomimono>
it would make a great followon to hannes's posts about where the bytes in unikernels come from
<thomasga1>
(it's in the main repo)
<mort___>
thomasga1: i just tried typing that and build failed too
<thomasga1>
you might need to `opam update`, Pierre's patch was merged recently
<mort___>
failure looks like some shell nonsense, possibly because i don't already have the switch directory in place
<yomimono>
OK, sounds like that's probably all for flambda, save some hackery that we can save for lateer
<yomimono>
people are probably curious about the hackathon so I'll paste Gemma's update:
<yomimono>
BEGIN QUOTE:
<yomimono>
Current planned venue is Darwin College, Cambridge. Looking at spreading it over 2 days (Thurs 14th and Fri 15th July). I’ll take it to the mailing list, but if anyone is travelling far to get to Cambridge and will require a night/a few nights accommodation please let me know so I can look into rooms. Met a few people at the FP meetup in London last night who are also interested, so we might have some new people.
<yomimono>
END QUOTE
<yomimono>
also, GET HYPE
<dbuenzli>
HYPE is HYPED
* mattg
is HYPED
<yomimono>
YEAAAAAAAAH
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<yomimono>
we have also at the end of the agenda an "outreachy" header, but no items under it!
<wiredsister>
haha
<yomimono>
outreachy is pretty great!
<wiredsister>
yay outreachy
<mort___>
has wiredsister's fine blog post been mentioned enough yet?
<yomimono>
no! thank you for pointing that out!
<wiredsister>
yes, I did a blog thing about syslog.
* mort___
bows politely
<wiredsister>
general question about something I'm thinking on:
<wiredsister>
so an issue was posted asking for a "killer example" of syslog
<wiredsister>
which might be something for me to work towards
<wiredsister>
which I'm not sure would be the best example, but it's not a bad idea
<wiredsister>
so a question for me would be, what would be a great blog post + example using syslog? I was thinking maybe something involving docker for hype value and practicality.
<wiredsister>
like, "How to make a syslog unikernel drunk and blindfolded!"
<wiredsister>
something catchy for the kids.
<yomimono>
something cool with types and structured messages and js visualizations maybe? kids love GUIs
<mort___>
hm. not sure i understand (i rarely do). i think i interpret that issue as: could we have a webserver that posted apache-style log entries via syslog
<yomimono>
or like "replicate this $6000 SIEM in one easy step"
<mato>
wiredsister: I'd go for something like start X unikernels, all logging happily to a syslogd unikernel
<wiredsister>
yeah, an integrated example would be best
<wiredsister>
okay, cool. I'm going to paste this convo to this issue and keep the discussion going there.
<mato>
wiredsister: for the hackathon i'd also like to have unikernel-runner (my run unikernels as docker containers glue) working with solo5, so could then help you to "dockerize" the example.
<mato>
wiredsister: please ping me in the issue (@mato) so i get notifications, thx
<wiredsister>
sounds like a fun time
<wiredsister>
will do
<wiredsister>
thanks mato
<mato>
i have to run
<wiredsister>
was outreachy mentioned because of new applicants yomimono?
<mato>
see you all later
<wiredsister>
I don't know when the next round starts applying
<yomimono>
hm, I don't think it's for a bit yet.
<wiredsister>
okay
<yomimono>
later mato, thanks for coming :)
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<yomimono>
"The next round of Outreachy internships will have an application deadline on October 17, 2016, and internship dates from December 6, 2016 to March 6, 2017. "
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<yomimono>
so we're a ways out - tell your friends!
<engil>
unpurecamelbot: commit done
<unpurecamelbot>
done
<engil>
unpurecamelbot: bye
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<yomimono>
thanks engil :)
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<thomasga1>
thanks, bye all
<noddy>
we need a dance bot for the ending credits
<reynir>
So hackathon will be 2 days?
<yomimono>
assuming it's possible to get the venue for them.
<reynir>
\o/
<yomimono>
:D
<reynir>
I took a week off work to go to england that week - the way I see it, more hackathon the better
<mattg>
something for hannes - i made some progress on https://github.com/mirage/mirage/issues/442 at the weekend, and it is a couple of copyright notices away from being a PR
<mattg>
finally...
<yomimono>
ah, excellent!
<yomimono>
another test case for updating mirage-types, and a rather large one too
<yomimono>
everybody seems to like clocks.
<mattg>
yes, next step is to use the right clock in all the things
<yomimono>
let us know if there's any way folks can help out :)
<wiredsister>
I have to sign off. Ping me always for grunt work/ help.
<wiredsister>
bye nice camels
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<mattg>
I'm sure there well be plenty yomimono
<yomimono>
I'm off to enjoy the English summer in a brief moment of dryness! thanks again all.
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