ec changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a 𝕯𝖊𝖓 𝖔𝖋 𝕯𝖊𝖙𝖊𝖗𝖒𝖎𝖓𝖊𝖉 𝕯𝖆𝖒𝖘𝖊𝖑𝖘 slash s͔̞u͕͙p͙͓e̜̺r̼̦i̼̜o̖̬r̙̙ c̝͉ụ̧͘ḷ̡͙ţ͓̀ || #ELLIOTTCABLE is not about ELLIOTTCABLE
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<alexgordon> typescript is like a good sandwich
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<ec> a goodwich
<ec> damnit alex
<ec> immediately quit
<ec> what a butt!
<ec> butttttt!
<ec> anybody know Ember
<ec> fix all my code it's broken n i am very frustrated
<jfhbrook> conde's editor used to be in ember
<jfhbrook> they may have since rewritten it
<jfhbrook> cause that was like 2 years ago and the presentation layer was all react + redux
<ec> ours is the opposite
<ec> our editor is hand-written in <canvas>, our presentation layer is Ember, wrapped for iOS by corber/cordova
<jfhbrook> ouch
<ec> and my coworkers are now rewriting half of the Ember part in React so we can stop banging our heads against … whatever-this-is
<jfhbrook> ahaha yeah
<jfhbrook> I uh, frickin' ember
<jfhbrook> it's like
<jfhbrook> the dudes that made it really wanted to be the best of breed batteries included framework
<ec> any chance you know Ember Simple Auth? or Ember Data?
<jfhbrook> and so it does have the batteries included I guess but practically it's all weird and nobody likes it (except the people that made it)
<jfhbrook> nah, idk a lick of ember, never worked on the editor over theres
<jfhbrook> I work on the preso layer here sometimes
<ec> fuckity.
<ec> and yep exactly that
<ec> people who like it _really_ like it
<ec> but nobody agrees with them
<ec> my boss-who-left was one of those Really Likes Ember people
<ec> and kinda blocked any attempts to modernise anything away from it
<jfhbrook> which is, well, a shitshow - kinja originally backbone + marionette + jquery, getting rewritten in nodejs + react and somewhere in the middle rn
<jfhbrook> oh, yeah
<jfhbrook> agree w/ you 100% there
<ec> so that's like … one upside to him leaving … really the *only* upside …
<jfhbrook> hah
<jfhbrook> what are the downsides XD
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<alexgordon> ec: hey
<alexgordon> I was cooking
<ec> lmfao there he is!
<ec> wait how're you seeing messages
<ec> i'm so hungry cook for *me*
<alexgordon> _whitelogger:
<ec> o been a second
<ec> just stay connected it's 2019 who disconnects from IRC
<ec> speaking of which
<ljharb> oh well if i'd known that i'd have dropped a timely sandwich joke
<alexgordon> well I hardly use irc nowadays
Sgeo_ was kicked from #elliottcable by ec [Sgeo_]
<alexgordon> who is sgeo?
<jfhbrook> it is a mystery
<ec> no idea whatsoever, but his joins 'n quits are like, 90% of the noise in this channel in the silent weeks
<ec> if he rejoins, ban him lmao
<alexgordon> ban him/her/it!
<ec> alexgordon: solution is to … not quit! so we can highlight you. and make you IRC more. muhahaha.
<alexgordon> yeah okay
<ec> ugh this is the LEAST useful "bug" report I've ever written
<ec> I'd close this shit in two shakes of a meat's tail, if it were my project
<ec> but like fuck if I know where the hell else to get help …
<alexgordon> although typescript is a good sandwich, I really wish typescript had macros
<ec> have you tried Reason
<ec> it is a superior sandwich.
<alexgordon> yes
<alexgordon> ehhh
<jfhbrook> I thought it had a new worse name now
<ec> have we already talked about this
<ec> get on my ocaml levelllllll, alexgordon
<alexgordon> does reason have macros?
<jfhbrook> that issue seems reasonable to me ec
<alexgordon> tbh I find typescript to be more consistent than ocaml
<jfhbrook> like I wouldn't expect a bugfix necessarily
<alexgordon> but neither are perfect
<jfhbrook> but it seems like a real issue
<ec> has waaaaaay more powerful PPX rewriters
<alexgordon> what I really want is compile time metaprogramming
<alexgordon> turing complete metaprogramming
<alexgordon> like lisp
<alexgordon> what I really want is lisp :P
<alexgordon> typed lisp
<alexgordon> that compiles to js
<jfhbrook> scala has a macro system that I think is supposed to be decent
<ec> that's what PPXes are
<jfhbrook> though I think it's an unstable API
<alexgordon> PPX?
<jfhbrook> oh it's the new-ish powerpoint extension
<jfhbrook> came out in the late 2000s?
<jfhbrook> or is that pptx
<jfhbrook> whatever
<ec> you write OCaml code with particular signatures, that the compiler invokes when it sees particular "attach magic here" notations in the written AST; and then its output becomes the actual program.
<alexgordon> I see
<ec> typed metaprogramming is literally what it is lolol
<alexgordon> not quite what I want though
<ec> liiiiiiike, lesse, what's an example
<alexgordon> I mean the magic of lisp is that it has very loose restrictions on what valid source code is
<alexgordon> (foo bar baz) is valid lisp if you define a foo macro
<jfhbrook> I don't follow
<alexgordon> ocaml has a much more complicated syntax
<jfhbrook> that still looks like lisp syntactically
<ec> ocaml's syntax is so fucking weird
<jfhbrook> see that seems less macro-related and more lisp-related
<ec> but I'll say this for it — it's hella unambiguous
<alexgordon> if you do transformations after parsing then it's got to parse right
<jfhbrook> which is fine! but.
<alexgordon> in lisp parsing is a very low bar
<ec> like there's no line-separators or block delimiters or … anything … because it's so goddamn verbose that it can always determine what anything is, in any context, and where it ends
<alexgordon> but in ocaml...
<ec> er
<ec> its typed?
<alexgordon> yeah I am using reason and ocaml synonymously
<ec> you're not doing text transformations
<alexgordon> is lisp typed? well there are typed lisps
<alexgordon> but usually not
<ec> you're doing *typed* *ast* transformations, in a language with GADTs.
<ec> i.e. ASTs are correct-by-constructions
<alexgordon> yeah yeah I know but if you want to define totally new features you can only do that within the bounds of the existing syntax
* ec nods
<alexgordon> whereas with lisp you can make a totally new syntax
<alexgordon> as long as it uses parens :P
<ec> it's also restricted even more than that, by design — you can only modify *opt-in* parts of the AST
<ec> I've never understood that viewpoint
<alexgordon> I do think there is room for something in the middle
<alexgordon> a syntax that is easier to add type annotations to than sexprs
<ec> like, that's so very extremely not true — all lisp looks the freakin' same; just because it's named `define-syntax` doesn't mean that's *really what you're actually doing*
<alexgordon> but is still "free form"
<ec> drives me a little nuts when Lisp fans talk about the ability to define new syntax.
<alexgordon> that is true
<alexgordon> the grammar doesn't change, but the point is that lisp's grammar is general enough to cover pretty much anything
<ec> come at me when I can add angle-brackets or arrows or `do … end` blocks or literally anything that isn't a veryveryveryslightly different meaning for this particular sexp payload :P
<ec> I will say this — I *love* sweet-expressions
<ec> still maybe hands-down my favourite syntax I've ever seen
<ec> as absurdly cool as ppxes are … haha
<ec> here's a really, really cool example of what OCaml's preprocessor macros can do, though — yes, I'm deadset on convincing you this is cool, lmao
alexgordon is now known as drparse
<ec> so you're limited to syntactically-valid matchers — but Sedlex overrides those into lever specifications in a very clever way.
<ec> it's definitely not as wildly flexible as true macros, of course
<drparse> that is cool
<ec> but I strongly consider that an upside, at least right now
<ec> (ask me again in three years 🤣)
<ec> thing is, the fact that they're opt-in — and that a valid OCaml AST is a valid OCaml AST, period — gives you a *lot* of sanity gains
<drparse> mainly what I want is to be able to import syntax the same way you import a module, I feel strongly that programming languages should work that way :P
<ec> they're arbitrarily composable because of that; editor and other tooling still works …
<ec> hahaha you know I agree
<ec> Paws v.v
<ec> i miss paws ugh
<drparse> nobody understood it xD
<drparse> well I didn't
<jfhbrook> do you know of a good "tour of ocaml" ec? could be fun to flip through on a phriday night
<drparse> phriday?
<drparse> is that intentional or typo xD
<ec> depends what you wanna do with it
<jfhbrook> nothing special
<ec> in a react/javascript/publishing-to-npm setting? or do you wanna learn it For Real™, in more detail, and use it for native stuff?
<jfhbrook> more I wanna come out being like, oh, that's what ocaml is actually like
<jfhbrook> so more the latter I guess
<ec> for the latter, there's a book that I've *repeatedly* heard called "the single best programming textbook". like, for/in any language. and it's true as fuck. also, free.
<jfhbrook> damn
<ec> RWO, Real World OCaml
<jfhbrook> better than the rust book? :)
<ec> here's the beta: https://dev.realworldocaml.org/
<jfhbrook> the rust book is very fun
<ec> ugh I'm so behind on Rust
<jfhbrook> but I only got a few chapters in
<ec> shoulda learned it years ago!!!
<jfhbrook> yeah me too
<jfhbrook> cargo really impressed me though
<jfhbrook> and I suspect that the borrowing mechanics, while weird, are powerful and neat
<ec> if you don't wanna Go Ham, though, RWO can be … overwhelming. it's clearly for experienced programmers who wanna move fast and think hard. if you want something more approachable as a JS dayjobber, I suggest just starting with the Reason / ReasonReact tutorials.
<ec> they intentionally kinda smudge over the differences at first.
<drparse> after using typescript for 18 months I feel that it's really really good but I think there is a simpler and better language that could be inspired by it
<jfhbrook> https://dev.realworldocaml.org/guided-tour.html this looks about right
<drparse> it does suffer a lot from having to implement all of JS's warts
<ec> I did the first few chapters of RWO spontaneously, in the passenger seat, on the drive to StrangeLoop a couple years ago
<ec> so like, it's very doable for you, I'd guess
<ec> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<drparse> typescript is like a zillion times better than python I was using before tho
<jfhbrook> day job is python
<jfhbrook> python is /ok/
<drparse> omg it's so nice to do e.g. function foo(x = []) {}
<drparse> I guess that's a JS thing
<jfhbrook> I mean you can write def foo(x=[]): in python
<jfhbrook> I assume in both cases that's not a factory tho
<drparse> you can write that if you want to be sad
<jfhbrook> like x = some_mutable_object is a footgun in python
<ec> jesus drparse lol
<drparse> ?
<ec> jfhbrook: I remember how hugely confused I was by that
<ec> when I first used Python for something
<drparse> I did have the idea way back to make a compile-to-python language to fix the stupid shit like no multiline lambdas
<jfhbrook> aha, yeah
<ec> like wtactualfuck
<ec> is that behaviour
<ec> jesus
<ec> I still use it as my "python is weird, don't." schpeil
<jfhbrook> I learned python in college like over a decade ago and my old code there is super super shitty
<jfhbrook> it's pretty funny
<ec> schpiel?
<drparse> haha yeah and they went to all the trouble of python 3 and WONTFIX'd it
<ec> Ruby > Python 4ever
<drparse> guido lost it somewhere around the py3k transition
<drparse> totally fucking lost it
<jfhbrook> I don't know that it's a thing that needs fixing it's just a kinda annoying consequence of the model
<jfhbrook> well he legit quit
<jfhbrook> idk if you heard about that
<drparse> yeah he did now
<ec> nope
<ec> what happen
<jfhbrook> uh, some random pep was the last straw for him and he was like, this isn't fun anymore
<jfhbrook> "What comes next? Dunno, you'll figure it out, glhf"
<drparse> he ragequat because of the := operator
<jfhbrook> yeah
<ec> k i'm off to play videogames in the middle of the workday because Ember makes me want to kill myself
<drparse> anyway python is almost dead to me
<jfhbrook> I feel that ec I was showing my boss my cows in minecraft
<jfhbrook> python is my daily driver
<jfhbrook> scala is fun but I'm not very good at it
<ec> I'll never stop loving JS, tbh
<jfhbrook> burn the clutch consistently
<ec> untyped, warty 'n all
<jfhbrook> and I caaaant' stoooop lovin' youuu
<drparse> ec: stay here and talk about programming languages bro!
<ec> nah too stress wanna die
<ec> catch me some day when I actually experienced work/life balance that day and have, like, a single spoon left to give.
<ec> o but do stay around
<ec> room is vaguely sometimes chatty again, it's nice, did miss
<ec> OH HEY
<ec> who is locks?
<ec> does anybody know/remember?
<drparse> :D
<ec> b/cuz I'm pretty sure he's an admin in this Ember chat I'm depending on
<drparse> he worked on chocolat
<drparse> a bit
<drparse> I'm not sure he wrote any code
<drparse> but he did tech support
<ec> does locks#7240 on Discord look like the same person to you?
<drparse> there's only one locks
<ec> "ricardo mendes" according to free node, lessee
<drparse> he used to be in here lol
<drparse> I'm pretty sure
<drparse> he used to be in here
<ec> yeah exactly, he ragequit and blocked me
<ec> and I'm like, talking past him every day at work now
<drparse> does that happen a lot?
<ec> and I'm constantly wondering if he sees my name and hates me lmao
<ec> holy shit yep definitely same dude, he's got the Ember hamster in his Twitter name
<drparse> well if I see him I'll ask him if he hates you
<ec> lolol
<ec> “You are blocked from following @locks and viewing @locks's Tweets.”
<drparse> maybe yes
<ec> ANYWAY
<ec> off to chill
<ec> heart u lots
<ec> baibai
<jfhbrook> @locks ?
<drparse> have fun ec
<drparse> I will be pondering programming languages
<drparse> like old times
<jfhbrook> ec what vidja do you play
<ec> mostly the sort of things the Builders, Managers, Commanders curator posts
<jfhbrook> yo ec ever get into cities skylines? cause holy crap
<jfhbrook> protip though, have super super shitty schools until you've filled out your city w/ pop and /then/ level them
<jfhbrook> I also got a dope dope minecraft realm going w/ some friends rn
<ec> right now, Oxygen Not Included, Stellaris, Kerbal Space Program, Civilization VI, Surviving Mars, Factorio …
<ec> as well as recently some time put into less-usual-for-me-stuff — Hob is beautiful, A Story About My Uncle (weird free-movement/parkour indie game that's hella fun), Borderlands 2 playthru with my partner,
<ec> lol played waaaaaaaaaay too much Cities
<ec> think Cities and Civ are my most-played by hours
<ec> yep — 800 hours in Oxygen Not Included, 600 hours in Stellaris, 475 in Cities, 400 in Factorio …
<ec> surprisingly, only 200 in Civ VI? that can't possibly be right
<jfhbrook> I can't do KSP
<jfhbrook> too much like the career I explicitly rejected at the end of college
<jfhbrook> my CS game is good though, I got the traffic manager and winter maps and I got a much better grip on roads and edu than I did my prior playthroughs
<ec> baller
<ec> i mostly dick around with complicated intersection designs
<ec> i'm a bit of a roadgeek
<jfhbrook> oh, yeah, I mean, I got TMPE so I could fix busted default traffic patterns
<jfhbrook> even when I don't feel like screwing w/ roads I get sucked in anyway
<jfhbrook> I don't have any pubtrans yet, waiting for the larger patterns to present themselves
<jfhbrook> also lots of low density zoning rn
<jfhbrook> still, I got some funky slip lanes and such going on
<jfhbrook> my first interchange is of course a clusterfuck cause I was trying to retrofit downtown
<jfhbrook> but in the new areas they're less crummy and it's actually the at-grade intersections I'm having issues with
<drparse> wow games are weird nowadays
<jfhbrook> drparse it's like if simcity were about infrastructure instead of policy
<jfhbrook> like there's still policy but you can ignore it for the most part
<drparse> I thought simcity _was_ about infrastructure
<jfhbrook> not as compared to cities skylines
<drparse> I have been living a lie
<jfhbrook> cities skylines has a much more complicated transportation model last I checked
<jfhbrook> I played 3000, 4, and 5
<drparse> well that's interesting
<ec> hahaha yeah
<ec> context:
<ec> Cities: Skylines, the spiritual successor to SimCity that kinda took over all of the player base when “SimCity (2013 release)” sucked a bunch,
<ec> was *made by* the people who do all those transport-management games
<ec> sooooooo it like, *has* zoning and services and shit,
<ec> but it's 99% about roads and layout and public transportation and stuff.
<jfhbrook> wow my steam acct is nearly 12 years old
<jfhbrook> truly ancient by online account standards
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