21:17 <meh`> still have to read the gist

21:23 <ELLIOTTCABLE> (I'm also about to hop in the shower, so if I'm unresponsive … :P )

21:29 <meh`> I agree on the difference between choices and inherent attributes, but in the end, people not liking eachothers for any reason is a normal thing, as long as those things do not affect the working environment, then it's a non-issue

21:29 <meh`> as long as things are kept separate, it all works out, if you then go seek the confrontation, that's another story

21:30 <meh`> if they do show up, then we have a problem

21:30 <meh`> and that must be kept in check

21:31 <meh`> but I can personally assure you that elia's opinions have never affected his behavior while working on Opal

21:31 <meh`> I work closely with him

21:31 <meh`> and I'm strongly against many of his opinions

21:31 <meh`> I don't bring it up, he doesn't bring it up, and it all works out

21:31 <meh`> and some of his opinions are even against things I intrinsically am, but that's irrelevant

21:46 <ELLIOTTCABLE> I suppose I have two further points against that; one's more emotional, the other more cold and intellectual.

21:49 <ELLIOTTCABLE> On the one hand, you have the ‘rapist argument:’ If you see somebody snatching a child, and do nothing about it … you're not acting *neutrally*, you're actually aiding the abuser. (Is that something we can agree on?)

21:50 <ELLIOTTCABLE> And I'd like to extend that point to say that in any situation in which there is a clear abuser; a clear imbalance of power or opinion (i.e. … the difference between ‘PHP’ and ‘women's rights’), one can make the same argument: trying to remain neutral, is (as the feminists say) helping to entrench the abuser.

21:50 <meh`> I feel ambivalent about that statement

21:50 <ELLIOTTCABLE> but moving on from that, because this aren't necessarily points you agree on;

21:52 <ELLIOTTCABLE> in a more cold, rational argument, I'd also like to point out that there's an *order of magnitude* more, say, Black developers, than there are strongly racist developers. If you are *guaranteed* to alienate one of two groups in a situation (and these ‘inherent-property politics’ issues are definitely such situations), then I think it's a damned-smart

21:52 <ELLIOTTCABLE> choice to alienate the abusive minority.

21:53 <ELLIOTTCABLE> or re-phrase: I have first-hand experience of how much long-term gain a community can draw from putting effort into becoming a ‘safe space.’

21:54 <ELLIOTTCABLE> there's tens of thousands of constantly-opressed, exhausted, quiet minorities out there; with precisely the same distribution of spectacular (and terrible, lol) developers amongst themselves as there are within our greater community …

21:55 <ELLIOTTCABLE> … and I think I can safely say that it follows that anybody allowing exclusive practices within their sub-community is simply excluding *themselves* from such a large percentage of the limited-number of the truly excellent developers out there.

21:55 <meh`> one thing is keeping the behavior INSIDE the community in check, and I agree it should be done, people should feel safe and welcome

21:56 <meh`> but if people do not feel, and I can't highlight that enough, not safe because one member has expressed a differing opinion on his own Twitter, completely unrelated to any contributor, and not directed to anyone specifically, thus not attacking anyone, then it's their problem

21:57 <meh`> also for the record, I'm not a native English speaker, so bear with possible language mistakes

21:57 <ELLIOTTCABLE> certainly~

21:58 <meh`> for instance, you'd have to be LOOKING for what elia said, intently, why would you read something that makes you feel the way it makes you feel?

21:58 <meh`> maybe you thought "hey, this project is cool, let's see who the guys working on it are up to in their own personal lives"

21:59 <meh`> but that's in no way related to the project

21:59 <ELLIOTTCABLE> I mean, I could go on and on about microagressions, and how ‘toughening up’ and dealing with the fear/exclusion one experiences isn't actually an option … but that's not something that's easy to explain without a lot of personal experience to touch on;

21:59 <meh`> if you wanted a feel of the project, you'd look at the issue tracker, the mailing list, the IRC

21:59 <meh`> no, I understand perfectly

21:59 <meh`> but I don't feel like sharing my personal life on the internet

21:59 <ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, not at all true, not for these parties. Looking at the people involved is the *first* thing they do, not the last. When you've been hurt and oppressed daily for your entire life, your first concern is whether you're going to be working in a safe space … not the quality of the code.

21:59 <meh`> just let me tell that I do understand the issue

22:00 <meh`> I'm not talking about the quality of the code

22:00 <meh`> I'm talking about the behavior of the contributors WITHIN the project

22:00 <meh`> they are two separate things

22:00 <ELLIOTTCABLE> I mis-read, then.

22:01 <meh`> as I already said in the issue, if he did act that way in an issue

22:01 <ELLIOTTCABLE> (I want to point out that I agree with you, in the large; more-so, the more we speak)

22:01 <meh`> or in IRC

22:01 <meh`> or whatever

22:01 <meh`> I'd be the first to tell him to stop it

22:01 <ELLIOTTCABLE> So, this connects back to the other Issue posted shortly after the one in question went viral:

22:01 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Something that goes a long way towards making the space safe, without kicking out everybody involved who holds disreputable opinions in public,

22:01 <ELLIOTTCABLE> is a studiously-enforced CoC.

22:01 <meh`> and I'm okay for that

22:01 <ELLIOTTCABLE> basically, when something like this happens, you can point at it and go

22:02 <meh`> as long as it respects people's opinion and behavior outside the project

22:02 <ELLIOTTCABLE> “This contributor may be a horrible person, but I'm not going to kick them out until they actually cause trouble *with another contributor*, or *within my sphere of influence.* Here are the rules, and they are following them.”

22:02 <meh`> I'm all for that, I just take it for obvious

22:02 <meh`> and I assure you, elia does too

22:02 <meh`> I don't even read his twitter

22:02 <ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, obvious is definitely not enough

22:03 <meh`> because I know what I'm going to read

22:03 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Altogether too many people like Elia are all happy-go-lucky, and seem to keep their issues to themselves … until they don't, and then are completely puzzled as to what they did wrong.

22:03 <ELLIOTTCABLE> and PoC, or women, or trans/nb individuals, see this time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again.

22:04 <ELLIOTTCABLE> After a (short.) while, it's just way safer to stay faaaaar away from any community that allows people like that within its' bounds.

22:04 <meh`> as I said, I understand the issue

22:04 <meh`> if the code of conduct issue was the one that got opened

22:04 <ELLIOTTCABLE> so, if you feel the need to do so … the closest compromise you can come to, is an *explicit* CoC, you know? Something somebody like Coraline (or better yet, Aria: I know her personally, and she wasn't kidding when she said your project was *precisely* what she's into)

22:04 <meh`> everything would have gone differently

22:05 <ELLIOTTCABLE> can then go … “Well, there's horrible people, I see that, but it sounds like the maintainers will put effort into protecting me from them.”

22:05 <meh`> I can tell you that I don't have the personal time nor the experience to write the CoC

22:05 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Sometime, that's not enough, to be clear, but it's better than nothing, right?

22:05 <meh`> but I will review any pull request for it

22:05 <Aria> Mmm. There are template CoCs that are pretty good.

22:05 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Just trying to help you understand things, not trying to change your mind anymore.

22:05 <Aria> The trick is the enforcement.

22:05 <meh`> yeah but I honestly don't have the time for that

22:05 <ELLIOTTCABLE> oh, Aria, you're here. I didn't even realize that. >,>

22:05 <Aria> Hehe. I am indeed.

22:06 <ELLIOTTCABLE> meh`: I think you can depend on the community for that.

22:06 <meh`> one thing is reviewing the pull request, another is proactively making one, which will involve others review, and a lot of work to get it in shape

22:06 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Here's one thought:

22:06 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Post on Twitter, and temporarily put in your README, that you're looking for input on your CoC. Start out just copying one from one of the many excellent template projects; and make the changes you feel the need to make.

22:07 <Aria> A good strategy is yes, to make the project have a code, and to hold people to it -- and put someone who's doing things outside the scope that are problematic on notice that it's not tolerated inside the project. An explicit "you're on notice" is a strong signal to those of us who care that it's ... well, not safe, but at least that we'd be listened to if something comes up inside the scope of the project.

22:07 <ELLIOTTCABLE> If people see you putting in even the slightest effort, it'll go a *long* way towards making friends, healing the wounds that happened today, and also towards making that CoC a real tool of protection in your hands later on.

22:07 <Aria> But that walks a dangerous line, still. But I think it's navigable.

22:07 <meh`> ELLIOTTCABLE, just post in the issue for the CoC

22:07 <ELLIOTTCABLE> meh`: will do.

22:08 <meh`> I want adam to handle it, he's still the original author, and way easier to deal with than me :)

22:08 <ELLIOTTCABLE> (This is probably the cessation of my involvement; I'm trying to talk to you on others' suggestions, but unfortunately I haven't written Ruby in years. My linguistic- and community-tastes have changed. /= )

22:08 <meh`> I only use Ruby for frontend stuff now

22:08 <meh`> that's where I find it really shines

22:09 <Aria> Another good strategy is to say "This is outside my experience to deal with, I'm looking for outside help" and lock comments.

22:09 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Aria: (good call, by the way; I've never heard of that, most of the SJWs I know would simply kick somebody out in the first place, but that's a really interesting compromise.)

22:10 <ELLIOTTCABLE> “You're not breaking the CoC, and this isn't my business; but you're doing things that *other* people often do before later breaking with CoC guidelines … so be aware that I'm worried, and attentive, and that I will do whatever necessary.”

22:10 <ELLIOTTCABLE> I think I'm going to keep that for later use. :P

22:10 <Aria> SO USEFUL.

22:10 <Aria> And it sends the signal you really want to send, I think.

22:11 <ELLIOTTCABLE> meh`: Am I right in thinking you're going for ‘All people are welcome, whatever their views; but all views are not’?

22:12 <meh`> ELLIOTTCABLE, I'm more on the "All people are welcome, whatever their views; but keep them outside the project"

22:12 <ELLIOTTCABLE> welcome <inside the project>

22:12 <ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah

22:13 <ELLIOTTCABLE> Anyway. I'm going to summarize some of my suggestions in the CoC Issue, and then I'm off into the city. (=

22:13 <meh`> cool

22:13 <ELLIOTTCABLE> meh`: Although I'm hesitant to say this, because I still *strongly* disagree with how you handled the original thread … thanks for being understanding and reasonable in here, just now, with me. That counts for something, at least personally.

22:13 <ELLIOTTCABLE> o7