jhass changed the topic of #crystal-lang to: The Crystal programming language | http://crystal-lang.org | Crystal 0.7.1 | Paste > 3 lines of text to https://gist.github.com | GH: https://github.com/manastech/crystal - Docs: http://crystal-lang.org/docs/ | API: http://crystal-lang.org/api/ | Logs: http://irclog.whitequark.org/crystal-lang
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<unshadow> I really dont like how much the undefined method 'intelligence' for Nil is coming all the time
<unshadow> ...
<unshadow> if @@player_char && @@player_char.intelligence >= 1
<unshadow> ^~~~~~~~~~~~
<unshadow> Do I need to warp every check with " if @@player_char" ?
<unshadow> Ok, it looks like a bug or something
<jhass> unshadow: @@player_char is shared state
<jhass> think about a threaded environment, the value of @@player_char may change between the nil check and the second half of the &&
<jhass> assign those to a local fist
<jhass> *first
<unshadow> but using @player_char isn't supported :(
<jhass> player_char = @@player_char
<jhass> same for @player_char
<unshadow> So, what should I do ?
<jhass> player_char = @@player_char (maybe that's actually a constant btw?)
<jhass> if player_char && player_char.intelligence >= 1
<unshadow> Well, then i'll just pass it around like a normal value, def something(player_char)
<jhass> that'll work too, likely with less nil checks even
<jhass> at first it's a bit annoying, but you'll love it once you no longer run into the dreaded NoMethodError for nil at runtime anymore ;)
<unshadow> thats true hahah
<unshadow> Btw, I used a cool script to run ldd on my exec, then cp all the needed libs to a local dir, after that I added LD_LIBRARY_PATH="./ext/", I hope this will work
<unshadow> jhass, you need to add your AUR to the docs: "http://crystal-lang.org/docs/installation/index.html"
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<jhass> unshadow: how so?
<jhass> oh, add, I read adapt :P
<jhass> feel free to do it
<jhass> I think archers know to look into the AUR first :P
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<unshadow> Btw, My game is getting bigger :) https://github.com/bararchy/mos_game
<unshadow> It's cool to see "Crystal 100.0%" in the git repo
<jhass> oh, since when is that violet and not gray anymore?
<unshadow> strcmp1, becuase I wanted to sheep out all the .so libs :)
<unshadow> I used a cool script to run ldd on my exec, then cp all the needed libs to a local dir, after that I added LD_LIBRARY_PATH="./ext/"
<strcmp1> the compiler should be able to statically compile a binary instead of doing that :/
<unshadow> Can it ?
<strcmp1> i donno
<vikaton> jhass, a few days ago
<vikaton> I would uch rather have the light gray one, but this is cool and unique
<strcmp1> crystal seems far less useful if the binaries you distribute depend on dynamic libraries like libgc etc, unless you can statically compile a binary and distribute that.
<jhass> build has the --link-flags option
<jhass> --link-flags -static throws me TCPSocket:(.text+0x6e1): warning: Using 'getaddrinfo' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking
<jhass> and then ld seems to fail on it, not sure if for that message
<jhass> ah, actually a bunch of cannot find -lxxx
<unshadow> for me too
<unshadow> crystal build MOSgame.cr --release --link-flags -static
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -levent
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lrt
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lpcl
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lpcre
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgc
<unshadow> /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lunwind
<unshadow> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
<unshadow> Error: execution of command failed with code: 1: `cc -o MOSgame .crystal//home/unshadow/Desktop/git-projects/mos_game/MOSgame.cr/main.o -static -levent -lrt -lpcl -lpcre -lgc -lpthread -lunwind`
<jhass> looks like we need static versions of those
<unshadow> Oo so i need to recompile libgc ?
<strcmp1> i would open an issue about it
<unshadow> You would, or you will ? (like you suggest we should ? or are you going to do that)
<unshadow> just so we wont open 2 issues :)
<strcmp1> yeah, just a suggestion
<jhass> could be worth a shot
<strcmp1> it would ultimately be nicer if the compiler solved the problem, and for all platforms.
<unshadow> jhass, LOL Files, created by statifier ("pseudo-static") combine disadvantages of both of them:
<jhass> strcmp1: the problem is that you usually don't have static versions of those libraries available
<jhass> I'm not sure that's something the compiler can/should solve
<jhass> at most the official compiler packages may
<jhass> but think about linking to stuff besides what the compiler itself uses
<strcmp1> it seems reasonable to me that the compiler should be able to compile a statically linked binary, otherwise i think crystal loses a lot of appeal, because it depends on so many dynamic libraries.
<jhass> libpq, libgtk etc etc
<jhass> unshadow: that's the same approach as statifier
<strcmp1> yeah, i would be fine dynamically linking libpq, and so on, but with a fresh slate (just vanilla crystal), i think it would be a big win if it were possible.
<strcmp1> besides the performance boost, binaries are appealing to me because you can distribute them without dependencies such as an interpreter or whatever, crystal falls down hard here it seems
<unshadow> I too think we need to find a solution to this, right now I'm sending 15 libs, and this is without actually using anything other then a =~ /a/i or puts
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<unshadow> What will happen is I'll try to use Curses, OpenSSL, Sockets.... hell
<jhass> unshadow: http://www.pgbovine.net/cde.html your script as a project
<strcmp1> i would be fine dynamically linking stuff like curses, openssl... but pcre/libgc no.
<jhass> I would be fine with shipping the core .a's in the compiler packages and adding a --static shortcut to crystal build for --link-flags -static as well as a --mixed flag who only tries to link those core libs statically
<strcmp1> yes i like the sound of that too
<jhass> but I'm not even sure I'd agree about it being the default mode
<unshadow> This is how I fill now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependency_hell
<strcmp1> i dont mind if it is default mode or not, as long as its possible, perhaps --release would imply --mixed.
<unshadow> nha, --release is for optimizations
<unshadow> jhass, this "http://www.pgbovine.net/cde.html" sounds cool, I'll check it out
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<unshadow> damn...
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<unshadow> Btw, shouldent that be raised before compiling http://carc.in/#/r/ai
<unshadow> there aren't that much colors avilable, so making the compiler aware of issues here seems easy no ?
<jhass> the old enum vs symbol trade off
<unshadow> what do you mean ?
<jhass> symbols are a global table
<jhass> you could get compile time errors already if colorize would take an enum
<jhass> though that's verbose .colorize(Colors::ORANGE)
<jhass> there are thoughts like crystal doing automatic symbol to enum conversion if a symbol is passed to an argument type restricted to an enum
<jhass> but then, you know, too much magic makes the language harder to understand
<jhass> so that's why there's still that discrepancy between symbols and enums in crystal
<unshadow> I prefer symbols to enums, something about those listed numbers feels a little bit archaic
<jhass> because there hasn't been a nice suggestion as to how to unify them
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<jhass> listed numbers?
<jhass> you don't need to assign explicit values in enum declarations
<unshadow> enums, a = 0 , b = 1, c = 2 etc... no ?
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<unshadow> Oh, I didnt know you could do that, so it's like creating a mini class (even a mini module)
<unshadow> but with values instead of methods
<asterite> unshadow: use colorize like this: http://carc.in/#/r/am
<asterite> the method that accept symbols is for the case when the color is dynamic, otherwise you can use the named methods, much cleaner and type safe
<asterite> (but apparently nobody knows that, I need to add docs to the module)
<unshadow> Why dosent the colorize just overloads the String, like in ruby so that .red becomes part of String ?
<unshadow> so you can just type "hello".red
<asterite> jhass: I was wondering why the color codes didn't show up, then I saw the text was red. Pretty cool :-)
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<jhass> asterite: ;)
<unshadow> yeha the website is awsome, I really liked that you added the colors in edit mode (syntax highlight)
<unshadow> cool :)
<asterite> jhass: where is the color code replacement done? Frontend or backend?
<jhass> everything is frontend
<jhass> the backend is just a dumb json API that takes {code,lang,version} and responds with {id,code,lang,version,stdout,stderr,date,exit_code}
<jhass> (which you're free to build your own frontend upon if you asked me prior, it sets completely open CORS headers ;) )
<jhass> https://github.com/jhass/carc.in/blob/master/frontend/bower.json#L17 I just glued together a bunch of libraries there ;)
<asterite> Cool :-)
<asterite> How do you like Ember?
<jhass> not sure yet
<jhass> it's like rails, if you understand and follow the intended paths, it works well
<asterite> In my workplace we used Knokcout and Angular, I prefer Knockout... but we still have to "play" with other JS libraries, and Ember was a possibility
<jhass> but I had to jump through a few loops to get autofocus with codemirror working for example: https://github.com/jhass/carc.in/blob/master/frontend/app/views/run_request.js
<asterite> Ah, yes, I see the directory structure...
<jhass> well, that's just additional oppionated stuff on top: ember-cli.com
<asterite> BTW, there's @[Link(..., static: true)] now that I remember, but it's not very useful
<asterite> I'd like to also provide static-everything, I'm sure waj will know how to do it... but I don't think everything can be statically linked
<jhass> it can make sense, but for core libs I'd like to be able to decide it on invoking crystal build
<jhass> glibc apparently can't fully
<asterite> Yes, exactly
<unshadow> packing libgc.so feels wierd ..
<asterite> (to both of your statemenets)
<unshadow> well... lets think about this for a sec, I got my project, right now it uses specific 15+\- libs, what will be the best course of action to lower the needed packages ?
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<unshadow> 1) build on target system
<unshadow> 2) Hope everyone has same versions of the libs (yeha right)
<unshadow> 3) use a 3rd party tool to simulate the libs
<unshadow> non of those are really cool tbh :(
<asterite> Rewrite evrything in Crystal? :-P
<unshadow> hahahah glibc.cr :)
<jhass> interestingly linux desktop is slowly moving towards 3 for desktop application package management
<unshadow> Id like to see the day hahah
<jhass> ship everything in an appdir that ships all necessary libraries
<jhass> eventually even run that in a thin container
<asterite> When we started Crystal we intended it to be for webserver stuff, so it's not very bothersome to install crystal on the server, the deps, and compile on deploy
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<asterite> but of course console apps and GUI apps are also possible, so we have to think about that
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<unshadow> Well, I'm proud to be the first one to try and create a game using Crystal :)
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<jhass> well...
<jhass> let's say an original game :P
<ponga> really?
<unshadow> hahah I remmber 2048 right ?
<ponga> wasn't tetris first?
<strcmp1> tetris is so original
<ponga> nah i mean in Crystal
<ponga> there was a guy who made tetris in Crystal here
<ponga> i believe that's the first game in Cry
<unshadow> I think jhass made a 2048 spinoff no ?
<unshadow> hahah
<unshadow> :)
<ponga> i haven't seen weskinner for a long time
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<unshadow> So.... when is 0.8.1 asterite ?
<unshadow> XD
<unshadow> It seems you get to sleep too much
<BlaXpirit> who cares about versions really
<unshadow> I'm with the git TBH so I don't, but it's cool to have the feture list, changes, and blog post about what is new
<BlaXpirit> what kind of libraries is Crystal missing?
<unshadow> SSH_Client :)
<jhass> mmh, I'd said libxml2 binding but asterite showed some love for that recently and I didn't check it again since
<BlaXpirit> would there be any interest in docopt?
<unshadow> ntlm support, ldap support, lxc, zlib, some kind of a "drb", mysql, securerandom
<BlaXpirit> (port of) http://docopt.org/
<jhass> slop might be a better inspiration for an interface
<jhass> (idiomatic interface)
<BlaXpirit> that's a different thing, i'm not interested
<jhass> I'm also not too much of a fan of comments that affect my code's behavior personally
<BlaXpirit> huh
<BlaXpirit> well i'm not a fan of silly DSLs
<BlaXpirit> which are overly abundant in ruby
<jhass> that's why I prefer Ruby and you prefer Python then ;)
<jhass> porting rake could be interesting
<unshadow> or webrick
<jhass> we have an inbuilt http server already
<jhass> inuilt=shipped in stdlib
<unshadow> Yeha, HTTP::Server .. from the examples hah
<unshadow> right
<jhass> ah, I know one: Drb
<unshadow> Thats what I said !
<unshadow> some kind of a "drb"
<jhass> oh, totally slipped over that :o
<jhass> I guess we need marshal first
<jhass> could be fun to base it on protobufs or something
<jhass> mh, zlib is missing too
<jhass> or regarding the RPC area a nice soap client
<unshadow> which is wierd, a web server without gzip\defalte ?
<jhass> well, you should still reverse proxy it unconditionally IMO
<unshadow> jhass, I'll give you a mission, its a hard one, in the HTTP::Server there is an ssl option, if you can get this to work, i'll give you back a lib of your choise to be added to crystal
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<unshadow> jhass, you cannot reverse proxy without gzip\defalte, you may need to rewrite content inside a page etc...
<unshadow> if you cannot decode it, you cannot re-write it
<asterite> You think we should bind to zlib or write the algorithm ourselves? Is it hard?
<jhass> everybody seems to bind to zlib
<jhass> and zlib doesn't only give gzip but lzma too
<jhass> (and prolly a bunch of others, never checked)
<asterite> I'll try to bind to zlib then, seems like something little and fun to do. It should also integrate with the existing IO things
<unshadow> gzip, zip, defalte, lz, xz ,iso etc..
<asterite> Zlib is something we definitely need in the std
<jhass> unshadow: I'm saying you should always put a reverse proxy in front of HTTP::Server these days
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<unshadow> ohh, didnt catch that sorry,
<unshadow> but what if I wanted to create a reverse proxy with crystal ?
<unshadow> asterite, that would be awsome !
<asterite> unshadow: by the way, it seems datanoise is filling the missing functionality of OpenSSL: https://github.com/datanoise/openssl.cr
<jhass> unshadow: one of my todo list is crystal-posix, which would allow you to write crystal programs doing IO and not depending on libevent and libpcl
<asterite> he said he'll eventually create a pull request with that
<unshadow> cool !!! I'll send him some requests, thanks :)
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<jhass> asterite: I have to say it out loud: you have the weirdest IRC workflow ever :P reading the web log and joining via webchat if you have something to say...
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<unshadow> jhass, how can you actually do IO without binding a c lib? (not that I think it's not possible, i really am interested)
<jhass> mh, I don't think you need to link anything for the syscalls to work?
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<asterite> jhass: oh, it's because I'm not with the computer the whole time, and from time to time I check if you are talking about something interesting or where I can comment :-)
<asterite> Well, zlib is a beast of a library, I was wrong about the "small" part of "small and fun"
<vikaton> asterite: Crystal is being added to techempower benchmarks :P
<asterite> vikaton: Nice :-)
<asterite> Though I doubt it will excel right now
<vikaton> It's pretty fast as is though
<vikaton> asterite: how much faster you think it can get o.0
<asterite> well, we didn't spend much time optimizing things, we are more focused in defining the API of things, fixing bugs, adding/removing features from the language, etc.
<vikaton> ah
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<asterite> vikaton: I'm still curious to see what performance we get right now :-)
<jhass> asterite: btw did you see the proposals to Ruby to add Object#try as foo.?bar ?
<jhass> (which in Ruby would be optimized/a shortcut)
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<asterite> jhass: where?
<jhass> nobu did a while back, but himself can't find it anymore :P
<jhass> there are a bunch of similar ones
<jhass> no
<asterite> I think &. is a winner :-)
<asterite> It's a pretty general solution
<jhass> but not nobu's original proposal
<jhass> anyway, I agree that .try &. is succinct enough
<jhass> however it got me thinking, ?/! at the start of a method name is an interesting free space in the grammar
<jhass> what if we allow it and use it to disambiguate predicate methods from "return nil" method?
<jhass> hash.size.even?, hash?["foo"], "foo".?to_i
<asterite> Could be, but for the hash?["foo"] it's a conflict
<asterite> foo.bar?["baz"]
<asterite> is take (foo.bar?)["baz"] or (foo.bar)?["baz"]
<asterite> (maybe for the [] case we can leave it at the end)
<jhass> mh, yeah
<jhass> didn't think much about the [] case yet
<jhass> hash.?["foo"]
<asterite> Ah, that could work
<jhass> but then .? needs to be an operator and not part of the method name
<asterite> But I'm not sure, the "?" looks a bit criptic in front of a name or after a dot
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<jhass> mh, yeah, that's one of the main reasons it got rejected from ruby too
<jhass> I'd really like to disambiguate predicates and error-nil methods though :/
<strcmp1> why dont you just use static types so that nil is never a problem?
<jhass> >> {"foo": "bar"}["baz"]
<DeBot> jhass: MissingKey: Missing hash value: "baz" - more at http://carc.in/#/r/at
<jhass> >> {"foo": "bar"}["baz"]?
<DeBot> jhass: # => nil - http://carc.in/#/r/au
<jhass> you would remove the second variant?
<strcmp1> so dont use the latter variant, ever :p
<strcmp1> sure
<jhass> what if you're uncertain whether a key exists?
<jhass> always handle the exception?
<strcmp1> or use a predicate, like key?
<asterite> You can check if a key exists, and then ask for the value, but that means it's a double lookup
<asterite> Or you could make it yield to a block... that's another option
<asterite> but I think then it will become like JS's callback hell
<jhass> hash["foo"]? || compute_default vs (hash.has_key?("foo") && hash["foo"]) || compute_default
<strcmp1> the longer version seems better to me if i don't have to worry about something being nil or not when it ends up being used later, but im just very anti-nil i guess
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<asterite> I think that methods ending with "?" mean they return something truthy or falsey. []? might return nil, so that makes it follow the rule
<asterite> So predicates and error-nil methods are similar to me
<asterite> asking for a non-existing key might be considered an error, or just a predicate that returns a falsey value (nil) if the key doesn't exist
<jhass> mmh, I have to see if I can incorporate that into my thought model :P
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<unshadow> I reallt miss .methods
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<asterite> Well, there went the chapter about Generics. I think the docs are "finished" now
<asterite> If anyone finds something missing, please let me know. I'll later maybe write a chapter on how to use the compiler (mainly the crystal foo.cr, crystal build foo.cr and crystal build foo.cr --release differences), and maybe a FAQ or "coding with performance in mind"
<asterite> jhass: hopefully you'll have an easier time in this IRC channel from now on :-)
<jhass> asterite: speaking of it, how about you try to get founder rights for #crystal? it looks vacant for years, so usually you can convince staff to give it to you if you have a project with the same name
<asterite> unshadow: http://carc.in/#/r/av , but not something I would use... there's also a way to get all methods
<jhass> we can just +F it to here, so it's easier to find for people
<asterite> You mean the #crystal channel?
<jhass> yes
<strcmp1> we should create #crystal-lang to be more like ruby
<jhass> strcmp1: what do you mean?
<asterite> What's the difference between ruby and ruby-lang?
<strcmp1> it has two channels
<jhass> it's difficult
<jhass> the person who registered #ruby pretty much abandoned it
<asterite> Got to go now, but i'll try to get the #crystal channel for us
<jhass> so we had no means to appoint new ops for a long time
<asterite> I think one channel should be good, it makes it easier for those who want to ask questions: there's only one option :-)
<jhass> which is why ruby core decided on #ruby-lang to become the official channel
<jhass> asterite: yeah, I mean secure it so we can prevent a split
<jhass> you can forward one channel to another
<unshadow> 1. Installation -
<jhass> so everybody who would join there would end up here
<unshadow> 1.4 on Arch Linux
<unshadow> btw, where are the docs ? are they on git ?
<jhass> strcmp1: anyway, #ruby grew bigger, and today is factor 4 bigger than #ruby-lang, mainly because #ruby-lang was set to ban non-registered users for a long time
<jhass> these days we convinced freenode staff to appoint new founders and have a new op team for #ruby
<jhass> I'm actually trying to make #ruby the official channel and eventually merge #ruby-lang into it
<BlaXpirit> that sure would be best
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<strcmp1> good luck jhass, it has been like that for so long i'm not sure it will ever change but i hope it does :)
<unshadow> what's the diff between "def bar=(foo)" and "def bar(foo)" ?
<jhass> unshadow: the former you can call with foo.bar = baz
<jhass> strcmp1: if you want to follow the story, subscribe to https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/1039 :P
<jhass> drbrain is the only founder of #ruby-lang and remains completely unresponsive :/
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<unshadow> we need retry
<unshadow> after rescue
<jhass> yeah I guess
<jhass> for now you can workaround by wrapping it into a recursive method
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<unshadow> poor datanoise.... now I attack him with 3 issues an hour
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/vToJI
<crystal-gh> crystal/master d303a0f Ary Borenszweig: Docs: dummy JS to load the frames if opening a type page
<crystal-gh> crystal/master 66ebdab Ary Borenszweig: Fixed #678: give correct error when an enum's constant doesn't fit the type's min/max values
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<travis-ci> manastech/crystal#2355 (master - 66ebdab : Ary Borenszweig): The build is still failing.
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vTo1p
<crystal-gh> crystal/master b767e64 Ary Borenszweig: Added missing js file
<unshadow> asterite, As I said, it looks you have too much time to sleep hhah
<unshadow> building now
<jhass> asterite: not the first time, maybe get a shell prompt with git integration? :P
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<travis-ci> manastech/crystal#2356 (master - b767e64 : Ary Borenszweig): The build is still failing.
<unshadow> I think "The build is still failing" is 90% of the commits hahah
<jhass> yeah, due to the os x issue
<willllll> last night I figured out how to reproduce it, trying to patch it today
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<unshadow> >> require ""
<DeBot> unshadow: Error in line 4: while requiring "": can't find file '' relative to '.' - http://carc.in/#/r/aw
<unshadow> >> require "*"
<DeBot> unshadow: Error in line 4: while requiring "*": can't find file '*' relative to '.' - http://carc.in/#/r/ax
<strcmp1> >> require '../*'
<DeBot> strcmp1: Syntax error in eval:4: unterminated char literal - http://carc.in/#/r/ay
<unshadow> require all the things !
<strcmp1> >> require "../*"
<DeBot> strcmp1: # => nil - http://carc.in/#/r/az
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<unshadow> Ok guys, good night, enjoy your (morning?) day :)
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<vikaton> lol
<vikaton> Crystal is now the fastest!
<jhass> D (gdc) is lower
<jhass> though at that scale, it might just be load variances on the host system
<vikaton> whoops
<vikaton> whoops :P
<vikaton> still impressive
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<datanoise> to me it's just llvm test. see how crystal is close to rust
<jhass> well, you can still mess up by generating code that's hard to optimize for llvm
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<kulelu88> what the fish, crystal is faster than Nim also
<strcmp1> that surprised me too
<kulelu88> D is actually faster though, on gdc
<datanoise> this benchmark is quite strange. look at clang numbers...
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<vikaton> datanoise, kulelu88 look at the latest commit, befor and after times
<vikaton> its very veriable
<vikaton> variable*
<vikaton> Nim is still pretty fast
<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vTKPB
<crystal-gh> crystal/master de499b2 Ary Borenszweig: Fixed: don't crash on private def as last expression (was missing a Nil type)
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] will opened pull request #679: SIGPIPE, non-blocking fds passed to other procs, and the os x travis failures (master...fixosxcat) http://git.io/vTK7J
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<travis-ci> manastech/crystal#2357 (master - de499b2 : Ary Borenszweig): The build is still failing.
<jhass> willllll: nice catches
<willllll> a lot of credit to fdr for having seen a similar thing before and sitting near me in the office :)
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<jhass> now all we need is a 32bit build
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<crystal-gh> [crystal] asterite pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/vT6tg
<crystal-gh> crystal/master cafe21f Will Leinweber: Ignore SIGPIPE in specs
<crystal-gh> crystal/master cafec2a Will Leinweber: Pass unaltered fds to other processes
<crystal-gh> crystal/master 966a3ef Ary Borenszweig: Merge pull request #679 from will/fixosxcat...
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<travis-ci> manastech/crystal#2359 (master - 966a3ef : Ary Borenszweig): The build was fixed.
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<asterite> The build was fixed! :,-)
<willllll> :)
<asterite> willllll: thank you so much! I can't remember the last I saw that message here
<asterite> willllll: The same issue happened in python?
<willllll> Yeah, but Dan does a lot of low level stuff in wal-e for speed. By default it doesn't do non-blocking IO, and he wired that up with gevent manually
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<willllll> s/by default it/by default python
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