sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<sarang>
I will be pleasantly surprised if you get a response from a company employee gmaxwell :(
<sarang>
That entire shenanigan with the transcript still makes me extremely upset
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<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: fwiw, those ~32 bytes you were talking about saving are only lost in terms of weight, they could be easily saved on disk and on p2p.
<gmaxwell>
jeremyrubin: just requires the disk/p2p serialization to know how to recover them.
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<gmaxwell>
does someone have an index of accumulator data structures?
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<nothingmuch>
orig svn repo for p2p-next is gone, but i suspect this was co-discovered by many people around that time
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<nothingmuch>
and though i couldn't confirm right now, work on libswift related project dates back to shortly after bittorrent, with the express goal of being able to stream content in real time while still using content addressing for the individual chunks
<nothingmuch>
i have 2006 in my head but that's likely confabulation on my part
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<nothingmuch>
i'm seeing mentions of p2p-next doing p2p video streaming demos in 2008, but not seeing any mention of Merlke trees
<instagibbs_>
"Efficient and general-purpose zkSNARKs without trusted setup"
<tromp>
thx, andytoshi. so perhaps it only helps with being able to stuff more auxiliary information into the BP?
<andytoshi>
tromp: hah maaaybe, i'd take 50/50 odds you get some aux information into the extra exposed scalars
<andytoshi>
instagibbs_: holy shit
<andytoshi>
tromp: but it may be that these extra scalars are polynomials of multiple pieces of secret data, so that adding/extracting information would require some pretty serious algebra (if it's generally possible at all)
<tromp>
instagibbs_ i wonder if by standard crypto hardness assumptions they mean ECDLP
<sarang>
andytoshi: I tried to work out the final generator exponent pattern for arbitrary-length input too, and it was unsuccessful :(
<instagibbs_>
tromp, hoping intensifies?
<sarang>
(it's straightforward if the verifier does all the rounds, but inefficient)
<instagibbs_>
tromp, here's to hoping(bouncer acting up, hopefully this isn't spammed)
<andytoshi>
tromp: i think they do, see the discussion section at the end
<andytoshi>
where they talk about "well it's not PQ secure because we use DL everywhere, but really it's just in this polynomial commitment thing, see this other paper that does it in a PQ way"
<andytoshi>
and "polynomial commitment" sounds like ordinary pedersen commitments, not pairings or anything exotic
<instagibbs_>
yeah, the QC version also doesn't get sublinear verifier sadly, wonder how bad it is
<instagibbs_>
Future Work(TM)
<tromp>
my bigger hope is still that QC runs into an insurmountable barrier:-)
<sipa>
trading exponential runtime for exponential engineering time :)
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<jb55>
reading a quantum information textbook was enough to convince me its insurmountable for at least a little while longer
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<nothingmuch>
jb55: opcode construction at each node? you mean how every append derives a new root w/ log2(n)/2 additional hashing operations on avg?
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<suraeNoether>
jb55 which textbook?
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<nsh>
(which part of the textbook tells you when the next breakthrough will be? :P)
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<jb55>
suraeNoether nsh: I just got the impression that we barely know anything, we only have a few algorithms. It seems heavy in the research stage. The idea of converting these ideas on paper into working solutions looks to be a huge undertaking.
<jb55>
one thing that always bothered me was how many of the algorithm abstract over the circuit complexity of the function its acting on. maybe that's not important but I had the impression it could have large practical implications wrt. decoherence, etc. still pretty new to this stuff though so perhaps its solvable with enough error correction ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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* nsh
nods
<jb55>
suraeNoether: I've been reading quantum computer science my Mermin, Chuang & Nielsen, and Preskill's course which all have good intro to this stuff
<jb55>
nothingmuch: I'm talking about ots mmr's specifically where nodes can append, prepend, hash, etc which are all different ops that you can apply which are used for merging trees
<suraeNoether>
jb55: thanks for the title and authors. always looking for more reading material
<jb55>
yeah it makes for some nice light reading
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<jeremyrubin>
gmaxwell: yeah, I was aware they were compressible at that layer. In fact -- you can literally just broadcast the leaf nodes of the entire tree and deterministically construct the nodes upwards :)
<jeremyrubin>
So in theory there's no extra space cost long term, you could just keep note of where to re-derive it from later
<jeremyrubin>
The only issue is the witness space
<jeremyrubin>
half kidding: segregated taproot programs to increase witness space
<gmaxwell>
making the p2p upgrade for that really sucks.
<jeremyrubin>
it might be a good one-time cost; generalizing a segwit space per version such that the per-version space is guaranteed to not have lower versions
<jeremyrubin>
But would definitely slow down deployment so hence half-kidding
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<gmaxwell>
it can't really be a onetime cost unfortunately, because you can't safely relay stuff you can't validate, and so any of these p2p changes have to handle the problem of making sure the upgraded network isn't partitioned.
<gmaxwell>
For segwit this was a big PITA that was partially handled manually.
<nothingmuch>
jb55: ah, yes, afaik that's completely novel for OTS, seemed to me like that precedence disagreement is only about the use of a function from an integer n to binary trees of size n, so that a sequence of merkle roots for an append only stream can be computed cheaply
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<sipa>
\
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