sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<aj>
gmaxwell: i guess you're relying onthe mempool having enough tx's to fill about two blocks at the time you'd mine on top of the underfilled block, otherwise the orphaning block would empty the mempool and building a limited block on the empty block would work better
<maaku>
aj: if the mempool is (approx) empty, then what's the point of caring?
<gmaxwell>
aj: if the mempool doesn't have a backlog it doesn't much matter one way or another.
<aj>
maaku: mempool is approx empty most of the time these days :-/
<gmaxwell>
(and that creates its own problems independantly-- so I think it's okay to ignore that for the moment for the purpose of discussion)
<maaku>
aj: I'm not being nihilistic, rather saying the same as gmaxwell.. in circumstances where there are not enough transactions to fill a block anyway, it stops mattering anyway
<gmaxwell>
Essentially, I guess my question is, -- is there some simple scheme that will make making an empty block unattractive enough that they won't pretty much won't happen, without making it interesting to produce them as a pure attack... "prefer to extend the chain with the most confirmed txn in a tie" or similar would work if everyone went along with it, but isn't incentive compatible: you'd earn
<gmaxwell>
more fees by extending the chain with the empties.
<aj>
gmaxwell: i wonder if that would lower the block size effectively (rather than reducing empty blocks as intended), so it would result in actual fee pressure
<gmaxwell>
if a block is empty because there just aren't enough txn outstanding, well thats fine-- then also limiting the size of the next block won't likely hurt (much).
<aj>
gmaxwell: so, empty block gets 12.5 btc, next block gets either 12.7 btc (fees at 1% of reward atm) by orphaning and hoping, or 12.56 btc by buildig a 2M-weight block instead, which slows down tx acceptance (0+2 Mweight vs 4+4 Mweight) so fee estimates rise, despite say 10 or 20 Mweight of txes in mempool
<aj>
gmaxwell: fees as a significant %ge of block reward seem like the way to make people care about accepting txs :-/
<gmaxwell>
aj: yes, so long as capacity isn't overprovisioned, the problem is probably largely self-solving.
<gmaxwell>
aj: that was generally my thought, -- the analysis is complicated by the fact that you should consider the third and later blocks: does he extend [empty] [half] or [full], etc.
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<jl2012>
maaku: haven't fully read your paper, but you can expand your safe single op-code list by putting it between the witness version byte and witness program
<jl2012>
that includes 16 more codes: TOALTSTACK, IFDUP, DROP, DUP, SIZE, 1ADD, 1SUB, NEGATE, ABS, NOT, 0NOTEQUAL, RIPEMD160, SHA1, SHA256, HASH160, HASH256
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<jl2012>
but this is probably not a good idea in general, because in the future, we may use something other than the BIP141-style witness script in the forward chain
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<maaku>
jl2012: ah, good point!
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<maaku>
why would we use something other than BIP141-style witness script?
<maaku>
I know of many proposed extensions, but not of any that don't look like a bunch of pushes
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<jl2012>
BIP141 is limited to 40 bytes. Some applications may need more. There's also only 16 free versions left
<jl2012>
maybe we could expand it to 75 bytes in forward chain
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<maaku>
jl2012: put the "prefix" after both segwit script pushes and now you most of the 2-parameter stack manipulation opcodes too
<jl2012>
but you will lose 0, 1ADD, 1SUB, NEGATE, ABS, NOT, 0NOTEQUAL
<jl2012>
and lose DROP, because for current P2WPKH and P2WSH, you will have an OP_0 left
<maaku>
A-HA! this is jogging my memory. I did go down this path some time ago and totally forgot.
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<maaku>
Yeah some of the opcodes are tricky in that their validity would depend on assumptions about what the segwit pushes are
<maaku>
So I went with a prefix instead
<jl2012>
and in the extreme cases, RIPEMD160, SHA1, SHA256, HASH160, HASH256 may return false value
<maaku>
But the segwit script version is more well defined, so I guess it's safe to put in the middle push
<maaku>
which i hadn't thought of
<maaku>
And besides... there's no reason you can't go with some prefixes being multi-byte pushes
<maaku>
It was a cute optimization that happened to align with the other baseline parameters I choose, but you could do e.g. hundreds of shards with 2hr block times, which is another possibility I explored
<jl2012>
if you allows multibyte, the better way is to concatenate the prefix with the actual script, making a single push from 2 to 75 bytes
<maaku>
jl2012: unfortunately I already used up that trick with rebatable fees
<maaku>
(which are needed for the flexcap, and since fees are more common than cross-shard transfers, they get dibs on the cool optimizations)
<jl2012>
I haven't read it carefully yet, but you have to remember that no matter how you place your prefix, in the legacy chain these UTXOs can't be spent with witness. So for the same tx, the weight is lower in legacy chain due to lack of witness
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<waxwing>
I notice in Lindell's range proof for the 2PC ECDSA he uses a construction from the old Boudot paper, but he's using a security parameter of 40 so the soundness proof is only 40 bit security. seems a bit weird.
<waxwing>
i remember reading that 1.2.2 ages ago, but was confused as it referred to 'l' as well as 't' in the example numbers, but only actually used t=80