sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
Hi all, I wanted to draw attention to this email from ZmnSCPxj and solicit feedback about his scheme for committing sidechain headers in the bitcoin mainchain
<Chris_Stewart_5>
The key insight is that the <Previous Sidechain Block Header Hash> and <Current Sidechain Block Merkle Tree> are, in fact, the sidechain header. Concatenating those data and hashing them is the block header hash. Just as additional information (like extranonce and witness commitment) are put in the mainchain coinbase transaction, any additional information that the sidechain would have wanted to
<Chris_Stewart_5>
put in its header can be committed to in the sidechain's equivalent of a coinbase transaction (i.e. a sidechain header transaction)
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
Is there any obvious ways this scheme is bad?
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<Chris_Stewart_5>
It seems to me this would be a plausible way to realize the sidechains white paper from 2014
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<arubi>
in the previous bip114 client (one based on v0.13.1), the pubkey was always part of the midstate, https://github.com/jl2012/bitcoin/blob/mast_v3_master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L1820 (at least I couldn't get it to go away even with the NONE equiv). Seems like this restriction is gone in the current 'vault' branch, unless I missed something.
<jl2012>
arubi: yes, I think sipa suggests to make the pubkey part of the signature scheme
<arubi>
oh so is that going back in then?
<jl2012>
so even if the message, ie. SignatureHash(), does not include the pubkey, it will be included by the signature scheme
<arubi>
yea, that makes perfect sense
<sipa>
yes, that's the correct way to do it
<arubi>
but also opens up some cool things if not used :), along with the ability to sign scripts in inputs, new opcodes..
<sipa>
if you don't commit to the public key in the hash (directly or indirectly) you get some unexpected vulnerabilities
<gmaxwell>
The pubkey needs to be part of the signature somehow, or the signature is not a proof of knoweldge and surprising stupidity gets opened up from being able to do pubkey recovery to 'sign' with a key you don't know the DL of.
<arubi>
oh I didn't know about vulnerabilities
<arubi>
sure sure
<arubi>
but what if I want a 2-of-2 where one pubkey is committed to and the second isn't?
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<sipa>
why would you want that?
<gmaxwell>
not even clear to me what that means.
<arubi>
I mean like having a sighash version where committing to the pubkey is optional. the sighash byte is what determines the sighash scheme being used.
<sipa>
again: why would you want that?
<sipa>
flexibility in itself doesn't achieve any goal
<arubi>
so say I have a 2-of-2 where one is a pubkey and the second is a signature's r value for example, then I append a yet undetermined s value and the special sighash byte, I have to come up with a pubkey that makes this signature valid
<gmaxwell>
then you haven't signed anything at all, because there is always a 'pubkey' that makes it valuable.
<arubi>
this pubkey is undetermined yet, it's only determined at the time when an s value is appended to the r value. I can do this only if I have a sighash scheme that doesn't require signing the pubkey too
<gmaxwell>
er valid.
<arubi>
yea but if I get to sign 's' as part of the input scripts..
<sipa>
arubi: then how can you have a 2-of-2 to it?
<sipa>
if you don't know the pubkeys in advance
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<arubi>
there is only one s to be valid (sign using the first committed pubkey)
<arubi>
the second pubkey in the 2-of-2 is just the r value, like gmaxwell said there's always a pubkey for it
<gmaxwell>
arubi: you can't do that either, because there is always a solution and no private keys are needed to generate it.
<gmaxwell>
you can't fix r,s in the spk and then choose PK later to sign.
<arubi>
it's important that this will be a solution I accept
<arubi>
I can sign the s with the first key going in as input, and r is already in the scriptpubkey
<arubi>
I will pay to the pubkey in the input used by the 's' value that I signed to generate it
<gmaxwell>
that isn't secure. because _anyone_ can compute the respective pubkey for any message.
<gmaxwell>
arubi: you aren't craigh wright by any chance, are you? :P
<arubi>
/busted
<gmaxwell>
(he was on a stage a while back telling people malleability was a non issue because you could 'reverse' the math and gave a highly confused description of a similar totally insecure scheme)
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<arubi>
yea I have a post on rbtc where I debunk it :)
<arubi>
finding*
<gmaxwell>
oh darn, I was kinda hoping he'd release some software that did it and we could have fun showing it was insecure. :)
<gmaxwell>
interesting he also made the same claim in his future of bitcoin (vomit) talk
<arubi>
I can see how he dissuades folks with his talks, it's just on the verge of being too easy to get lost in jargon and too hard to follow to disguise the nonsense
<gmaxwell>
right, adding to your message, even if you could do it-- it wouldn't be secure. Anyone could steal the coins because anyone could compute the corresponding pubkey.
<arubi>
yea I agree, if it's just one pubkey used in the script
<gmaxwell>
yes, then he doubles down on the agressiveness and people back off because maybe he could be right.
<arubi>
rather, just one signature
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<arubi>
with current script, it's easy to also do a 2-of-2 with one pubkey and one signature, but anyone could compute the pubkey like you say
<arubi>
in case there's only an 's' value in there, or an 'r' value (can't decide which is better), and I get opcodes like substr and cat, I can generate the signature on the fly at redemption
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<arubi>
also since I can sign inputs now, I can have the first pubkey commit to the 's' or 'r' value in the inputs. changing it will invalidate the multisig
<arubi>
it makes for some cool toys at least. I don't see how it becomes insecure here if I have the first pubkey as the inputs signer still. I'm moving my setup to the new 'vault' client to check that :)
<gmaxwell>
Sorry, I am unable to parse what you are saying.
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<arubi>
okay, lemme rephrase
<gmaxwell>
might be more useful in a form of "'pubkey' is X" "signer provides Y" "verifier computes Z"
<arubi>
this is very close to what I wrote in an old note, before I left it (as pubkey was in sighash)
<arubi>
there's one cool operation in ecdsa called " Verifiable and Assisted Key Pair Generation and Validation"
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<arubi>
where you have one person produce a pubkey for your signature in a backwards way like I mean here
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<arubi>
pubkey is determined by the message, private key for the pubkey is recoverable by knowledge of DL of the signature's r value
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<arubi>
so what I was trying to do with ^^^ is something like that only where one signer provides the r value, and the second side provides the s