wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<leakypat> Reading the architecture documents for planet lab, it seems custom designed for Bitcoin testing
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<ebfull> i still have a lot to learn about the lightning network
<ebfull> how do fees on the blockchain relate to the usefulness/viability of lightning for users?
<ebfull> that is, would lightning still work even if fees on the blockchain were too high for most transactions?
<rusty> ebfull: well, high blockchain fees mean high setup cost for LN. So low fees are better for adoption.
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<kanzure> rusty: there might be a trustless way to setup a high-fee channel in that situation, possibly like m-of-n with multiple parties owning the hub or something...
<kanzure> i mean a channel that has to pay high fees
<rusty> kanzure: that sounds like a complete breakdown of decentralization of LN. We want lots of channels, which means cheap bitcoin txs.
<kanzure> huh? so you are against n-party channel setup?
<kanzure> or.. er.. i know it is possible for your position to be more nuanced, but i'm still having trouble interpreting it anyway.
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<rusty> kanzure: perhaps I misunderstand. It may be possible to have a multiparty node; I've not thought about it. I don't think it helps much for decentralization of the network, does it?
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<Luke-Jr> rusty: I assume new users (who have no bitcoins) can setup LN without touching the blockchain at all?
<rusty> Luke-Jr: only if they can find a node to front them funds, so no...
<Luke-Jr> well, I'm assuming to get funds, they'd receive them via LN - not sufficient?
<rusty> Luke-Jr: not at a base level: to connect to LN requires an anchor tx.
<rusty> Luke-Jr: it's quite possible to set up a service which (for a fee) will allow someone to connect to the LN. You send to this service and nominate them, and it funds their setup.
<rusty> Luke-Jr: hmm, you can even make this trustless... I think.... let me get a coffee and see if I have just completely reversed my answer :)
<Luke-Jr> ;)
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<rusty> Luke-Jr: yes, I think it makes a lot of sense. It needs a long transaction though, because normal lightning tx HTLCS would be expected to resolved in a few seconds, this would take ~1 hour (assuming both sides are happy with 6 block deep for the anchor tx).
<rusty> Luke-Jr: and that trustless system requires the recipient to be online. The trusted one doesn't, which may be an advantage.
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty use of LN is predicated on users having UTXO, getting UTXO might take longer than 6 blocks
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> in the distant future
<rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: is SPV LB impossible? I haven't thought about it hard....
<rusty> s/LB/LN/
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty unsure
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty I'm thinking about how to keep bitcoin as decentralized as possible while allowing users access to UTXO.
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<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> UTXO distribution to new users is a big bottle neck, even bigger than users transactions
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> Must be achieved for LN success
<rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: utxo set commitment is an old idea, but AFAICT nobody has an implementation. petertodd had something, don't know what the state is...
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> yep
<rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: what makes you think complete UTXO set is a requirement? I mean, it's nice, but we can get a pretty long way with exhaustive fraud proofs (though then you're worrying about sybil attacks).
<rusty> KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2: (which implies UTXO commitments or a backref scheme a-la pettycoin, but doesn't mean you need them all yourself).
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty maybe my knowledge of LN incomplete. Users need UTXO to generate HTLC, no?
<KFl6WxEUI1Zbp2> rusty other ways of generating HTLC w/o UTXO?
<rusty> No, they only need the commitment tx, for which all ingredients are handed to them. They need to (1) be sure the anchor tx is valid and deep enough, and (2) watch for any unexpected spends of it.
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<kang__> All the DMMSs are DMMSs on the genesis block right? So in a way we can say Satoshi spend 21m-50 coins to build a network to secure those first 50. If we tweak these values, are there any examples of fast lived cheap blockchains?
<kang__> By fast lived, I mean where block reward approaches zero pretty quickly(days/weeks). Any such experiments?
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<nwilcox> Are there proposals / past discussions about relying on blockchain contracts as a means to improve dos/Sybil resistance?
<nwilcox> eg: I will peer with you only if you prove you've locked up X BTC for K blocks specifically for our connection...
<kanzure> "specifically for our connection" would be verified how?
<kanzure> or, how does that improve resistance?
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<nwilcox> kanzure: second question: if most nodes required this, it would make connecting to many nodes expensive, and it would make being disconnected for "bad behavior" expensive.
<nwilcox> first question is one of protocol design. I haven't nailed down the details, but wanted to check if people've already explored this space and/or think it could be fruitful.
<nwilcox> If all nodes required it, there'd be a bootstrapping problem for new nodes, though.
<nwilcox> Protocol requirements are something like creating txns which together lock up BTC contingent on both parties committing, and specific to a connection.
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