<jblack>
morenoh149: Sorry, I was in the bathroom when you replied
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<nahtnam>
Hey guys! I was wondering if any of you guys are interested in taking an interview (via form) for my high school career unit essay?
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<Nilium>
Career unit essay?
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<kubunto>
nahtnam: ill bite
<diegoviola>
what's the alternative for string interpolation again? sorry for such noobish question
<Nilium>
diegoviola: String concatenation?
<diegoviola>
yeah but there was another one
<diegoviola>
iirc
<nahtnam>
Nilium: Yeah, we studied different careers and options in school. We are supposed to write a 15-20 page essay describing everything about the field and part of it is to get some interviews.
<Nilium>
Uh, interpolation is fancy string concatenation as far as I'm concerned, so I don't know what you're looking for.
<nahtnam>
Thanks in advance
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<diegoviola>
Nilium: I might have confused it with a function that accepted different arguments, like foo("string", something else)
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<Nilium>
I can fill out the form but I don't use Ruby at work except for small command-line tools I don't share, so if you're looking for people using Ruby, I probably won't fit.
<diegoviola>
anyway, thanks
<nahtnam>
Nilium: No, it for computer scientists in general. Let me know if you want to take it.
<nahtnam>
I just asked here
<nahtnam>
because I use ruby
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<morenoh149>
I'm a scientist
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<Nilium>
I'm fine with taking it, just curious whether I need to set aside time in the future for other questionery
<nahtnam>
morenoh149: Want to take me interview? :P
<Nick_ZWG>
But really, I'm trying to figure out how to add extensions to a Certificate Signing Request, and was hoping this gem would provide some clues.
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<elfuego>
jhass: the question I should have asked originally, is it possible to update sinatra app configurations at runtime - this might seem as silly question, but i’m a bit new to this
<jhass>
I don't know either
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<jhass>
I usually just try out stuff and read source if the docs say nothing about what I want
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<nii236>
pry is great
<sevenseacat>
indeed
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<nahtnam>
Hey guys! I was wondering if any of you guys are interested in taking an interview (via form) for my high school career unit essay? Basically we have to find a field that we want to work in and do research on it and write an essay. Part of the requirements is to get interviews.
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<nahtnam>
Its just a short typeform that you can fill out.
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<centrx>
Sounds exciting. I know the nicks of several people I'm sure would be interested.
<nahtnam>
centrx: Can you ping them please?
<centrx>
DeBot, Activate form-filling gem
<sevenseacat>
lol
<nahtnam>
*Writing a 20pg essay is not exciting tho.
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<centrx>
Write 20 one-page essays
<havenwood>
then call #join on em
<havenwood>
sentences made of only the word "buffalo"
<havenwood>
which apparently you can do
<sevenseacat>
lol
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<nahtnam>
havenwood: What about "chicken"? chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://isotropic.org/papers/chicken.pdf
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<juggosi>
Trying to store all strings within a <div> tags of a site using a ruby script, Can anyone help me out, don't have a clue how to proceed
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<Dnice>
Hi
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* Nilium
bangs his head on his keyboard repeatedly and goes to lie down.
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<norc>
Hi. I changed a gemspec file to change the version of a prerequisite and pushed it to my git server. If I install that gem directly, it works. Bundle however does not recognize the changed prerequisite and tries to still install the old version of the prerequisite, as if the Gem was never changed.
<norc>
Any idea how to figure out whats going on here?
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<certainty>
moin ruby lovers
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<gr33n7007h>
wow, 12y 6w 6d ago this channel was registered :)
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<certainty>
oh nice
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<flughafen>
morning
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* certainty
tips hat
* flughafen
certainty tips a top hat
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<flughafen>
how was the weekend? sevenseacat certainty
<sevenseacat>
busy busy busy
<sevenseacat>
still busy busy busy
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<flughafen>
sevenseacat: workin?
<certainty>
flughafen: awesome, nice weather, had icecream, spent a good amount of time with the guitar
<sevenseacat>
working on mein Buch
<flughafen>
certainty: what guitar do you have?
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<certainty>
flughafen: nothing too fancy. A hagstrom wking
<certainty>
viking, even
<flughafen>
i want to get an autographed copy i can sell on ebay for 4.50$
<flughafen>
certainty: i have 2, a jackson sl2q pro soloist and a ibanez grg170(cheapy)
<certainty>
oh that's a fine guitar
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<flughafen>
it is' pretty nice
<certainty>
flughafen: what genre are you in?
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<flughafen>
certainty: metal, rock, classical
<certainty>
sevenseacat: you're writing a book?
<sevenseacat>
!r4ia
<helpa>
Rails 4 in Action - http://manning.com/bigg2 - An excellent book combining Rails and TDD/BDD development. Written by Rebecca Skinner, Steve Klabnik, Ryan Bigg, Yehuda Katz
<flughafen>
certainty: it's on picking up flughafens
<certainty>
sevenseacat: awesome :)
<flughafen>
!idhab
<certainty>
sevenseacat: looking forward to it.
<sevenseacat>
:)
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<flughafen>
when stuff happens from someone else it looks my trello board is haunted
<certainty>
principal scinner on how to approach rails apps
<certainty>
*scnro
<certainty>
scnr, damn
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<certainty>
also, skinner. ok now it's official. i'm not going to write anything today. It seems i can only produce a crap
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* flughafen
forgot his mechanical keyboard at home
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* flughafen
cries
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<flughafen>
certainty: did you see the eclipse?
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<agent_white>
Just make the clack sound with your mouth instead!
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<flughafen>
agent_white: that's a good idea. I wouldn't want my office mates to think I'm not working
<certainty>
flughafen: it was very cloudy. I only realized that it got somewhat darker, more foggy and alot colder
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<agent_white>
sevenseacat: Does Steve work on it anymore at all? Or is he too deep in rust docs now?
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<certainty>
he's a machine, he can do all at the same time and hold a monlog about marxism
<sevenseacat>
agent_white: nup. he did do a lot of work on it, but its radar and I finishing it off
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<agent_white>
Ah! :D
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<consti>
I'm not even 100% sure if #ruby is the right channel for this :) – what's the best procedure to figure out what is really missing on my OS?
<avril14th>
maybe #centos ?
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<hanmac1>
consti: imo it might look like that you miss some build depenendcies ... hm look for json-dev or json-devel in your package management
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<consti>
hanmac1: thanks!
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<agent_white>
sevenseacat: I was happy to see my first issue posting evar may have helped with 9314d1e in r4ia. :D I like the explicitness (isthisaword?) of that change, at least!
<consti>
avril14th: I'll look if I can fix it with hanmac1's comment - otherwise I'll go check #centos :)
<hanmac1>
consti: but currently it does look for me that your shell is currently broken and does have problems to understand the compile flags ...
<sevenseacat>
agent_white: :)
<consti>
hanmac1: you mean my rvm setup might be broken?
<agent_white>
sevenseacat: Is there a place for discussion or should I ask it here? Just things that I don't understand not issue-worthy.
<hanmac1>
consti: maybe, or maybe it doenst understand your shell
<sevenseacat>
you can ask it here, or in #rubysherpas, or on github, or anywhere you see anyone who might be able to answer you :P
* agent_white
grabs cape and heads to sherpas
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<arup_r>
Is there any mongodb IRC channel ?
<flughafen>
gcc file.json then run a.out to to see the error
<arup_r>
Google not giving me
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<avril14th>
#mongodb ?
<arup_r>
nah..
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<flughafen>
avril14th: do they suck?
<avril14th>
who?
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<flughafen>
#mongodb
<arup_r>
Ohh.. yes
<avril14th>
had some answers there sometimes
<arup_r>
I had a space.. so not able to connect it :(
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<arup_r>
flughafen: who suck ?
<flughafen>
arup_r: #mongodb
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<arup_r>
ok.. flughafen why did you log out from there ? :D
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<flughafen>
just to see how many people are there
<arup_r>
350 +
<arup_r>
I see
<flughafen>
should i come back and make a ruckus?
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<arup_r>
sure.. :)
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<flughafen>
arup_r: i don't like mongodb
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<arup_r>
hehehe
<arup_r>
ok :D
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<flughafen>
arup_r: are you moving to mongo?
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<arup_r>
No..
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<flughafen>
arup_r: so you've been on mongo?
<arup_r>
I have assigned one work in Rails.. where they use Mongo.. so I made Postges code.. but now trying to write it using Mongo
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<flughafen>
ah, yeah. i'm don't really like nosql . sorry
<arup_r>
I understand RDBMS.. first then Document DB
<arup_r>
not me too
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<flughafen>
mongodb is web scale though
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<sevenseacat>
!mongodb
<helpa>
For maximum webscales, use MongoDB. Also see: !node.js
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<flughafen>
!node.js
<sevenseacat>
!node.js
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<helpa>
For maximum webscales, check out node.js. Also see: !mongodb
<flughafen>
!mongodb
<sevenseacat>
<_<
<flughafen>
sevenseacat: is nosql generally frowned upon here or just mongo?
<flughafen>
!nosql
<sevenseacat>
i only speak for myself, but i dont see much use for nosql in web apps
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<flughafen>
arup_r: everything becomes funny when you put mongo in front of it. mongolol
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<flughafen>
mongodata reliability
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<arup_r>
mongogo
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<certainty>
mongogogirl
<flughafen>
mongogolol
<certainty>
mongoggadgeto-db
<flughafen>
sevenseacat: you mongogogirl
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<mozzarella>
wanna see my humongo dongo?
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<flughafen>
if you want me to look at tem i can complain how they aren't pep8 compliant
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<arup_r>
workmad3: Humm.. If I write and push them to GitHub and ask help to review and suggestions for improvement.. will you guys put me on the right directions.. ?
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<agent_white>
arup_r: I will for $5
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<arup_r>
agent_white: $ is not my currency..
<workmad3>
arup_r: there's no point putting random shit in public places to try and game the system... if you're looking for a job, you need to show competence according to the standards of your potential employer... if you show them badly designed crap, or if you are only able to show simplistic ideas with naive implementations, then you're not going to improve job chances
<arup_r>
ok..
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<arup_r>
Then what should be the aproach workmad3?
<agent_white>
arup_r: Oh. Well 5 high fives then!
<workmad3>
arup_r: what you asking that question means to me is that you think the stuff you'd produce is crap... :P
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<arup_r>
no.. of course.. workmad3 :D
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<arup_r>
I'm not good at the frontend part..that is the big -ve point for me..
<workmad3>
arup_r: are you applying for front-end roles?
<arup_r>
rest I am good.. I think so.. I might be wroong
<arup_r>
No.. Rails ...
<atmosx>
workmad3: backend from what I get.
<workmad3>
arup_r: are you applying for full-stack roles?
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<atmosx>
workmad3: he could work as a full-stack yes. I've wathing his posts here and on the ML
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<arup_r>
Yes.. I am applying for Rails job.. all need Fullstack.. But I am good only M and C.. not much V
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<arup_r>
Al though I can write code in V ,,, but CSS... JS is fine.. I am learning it now..
<workmad3>
arup_r: ok... so in that case, you know a place you want to improve... do some projects to improve it
<arup_r>
But how would I improve my Frontend design skills.. ?
<arup_r>
humm
<arup_r>
atmosx: thanks for the motivation..
<atmosx>
arup_r: the fastest way to get a job though, using Open Source it's fixing bugs/getting involved in existing successful projects.
<workmad3>
arup_r: you're not applying for design roles... just get something together that doesn't look like complete shit (probably using bootstrap or zend)
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Say you were to be 'showcasing' your code-folio. Would you have a separate github account for this or use your 'general' account and point to specific repos?
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<workmad3>
agent_white: no idea tbh... my github profile is shit, and most of my work is stuck in private company repos
<atmosx>
I've received job offers and my github profile is not good anyway, good as in "curated"
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<workmad3>
atmosx: yeah, pretty much the same :)
<atmosx>
+ I always learn news things and think that I could have done *this* and *that* better
<agent_white>
workmad3: Ah I figured... but say you were looking for a entry-level position?
<agent_white>
atmosx: Ah yeah. Mine is just full of unfinished projects, notes, etc. :P
<workmad3>
arup_r: sorry, I meant zurb, not zend
<workmad3>
gods, that's a bad typo :(
<arup_r>
ok...
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<atmosx>
arup_r: in which Indian city/town are you located?
<atmosx>
arup_r: I thought you were currently working as a ruby dev or something actually.
<arup_r>
But any good resource names to learn Zrub.. They have good doco.. but not well explained all the times... what there class names means and all ?
<arup_r>
atmosx: I am in B'lore
<atmosx>
bangalore?
<workmad3>
agent_white: all I can really think is what I'd look for in an entry-level position... and mostly, that would be a willingness to learn and enough evidence of basic skills that are relevant (I'd probably look at some code if it was available, but I'd also talk over either why they did something in the code that way or talk over general approaches if there weren't any good examples from their code-base)
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<workmad3>
*look for in an entry-level applicant
<arup_r>
atmosx: I am working as RoR app dev... But this is first my rails project in my current comp.. where the project I created all API.. no views at all
<arup_r>
atmosx: yes
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<atmosx>
arup_r: doesn't matter what you do actually. As long as you have worked as a RoR dev (and got paid for it) it's important. You can say "I've worked for 2 years there and there".
<arup_r>
So,, I am trying to learn views and JS by myself in my own project.. I am just really new 6-7 months web dev exoperience
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<arup_r>
humm
<workmad3>
arup_r: I think I'd been working on web-dev for about 3 years before I actually got a decent handle on JS
<atmosx>
JS will get yu a job way easier than ruby, but are you willing to relocate or you're looking for remote jobs?
<arup_r>
flughafen: there?
<flughafen>
yes arup_r
* atmosx
is diving into JS too
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<arup_r>
someone from #mongo said not possible.. right ?
<arup_r>
atmosx: JS is very cool though
<arup_r>
I liked it
<atmosx>
You can't really make anything *modern* without large chunks of JS and I don't like copy/pasting code that I don't understand :-/
<flughafen>
arup_r: right, a mod said it wasn't possible, but i've never used nosql stuff, so
<atmosx>
arup_r: Well IMHO it sucks big time, but okay :-) ... I mean the langauge is so bad that.. It is scary.
<arup_r>
flughafen: tha's how I learn
<atmosx>
badly designed
<flughafen>
ha, sweet\
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<workmad3>
arup_r: and for me, CSS fell into place when I read "CSS: The Definitive Guide" cover to cover... I'd picked up a lot of bits and pieces of 'magic incantation' type stuff before then, but reading a single book that laid it all out helped it all to just slot into place
<arup_r>
:) flughafen: when I have really have no project to learn something I want to
<agent_white>
workmad3: Awesome :) Thanks for the advice. Unsure of arup_r's background but I have "half a degree" but more than enough eagerness to learn to make up for the other half of it.
<workmad3>
arup_r: and in all of that, I'm *still* shit at actual front-end design... but I can take a design and implement it ;)
<atmosx>
You have to make your own hash-table implementations, etc. Objects and classes are the same, syntax might give you troubles, debugging doesn't look/feel easy...
<atmosx>
anyway
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<atmosx>
workmad3: Truth to be told, front-end design is a fine art by now. You can't really be great at both back and front-end. Most of us take ready made frameworks and ust paste them. Since they are well thought they *work* but doesn't make us designers :-P
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<atmosx>
workmad3: Anyone who wants a really good looking, kinda unique website, should pay a designer
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<workmad3>
atmosx: yeah, and preferably one who doesn't think in just static designs too... you want a UI & UX designer
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<arup_r>
humm
<atmosx>
workmad3: Sure and I guess it'si only natural that ruby developers are much more keen to the backed, it's more interesting to me (and other rubyists I guess) to design the backend than the front-end
<workmad3>
atmosx: some of the harder stuff when I was getting my head around JS was dredging up forgotten, barely used information on UI implementation and structuring UI within a UI framework from degree and play pre-web play projects :)
<atmosx>
so good thing we have CSS Frameworks...
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<agent_white>
So you folks would expect a junior to be a new sponge eager to absorb?
<agent_white>
Not -too- much more?
<workmad3>
bleh, that was an *awful* sentence... can I blame it on monday morning please?
<atmosx>
agent_white: I don't know, but I'm an eager HN readers and what I get is that most developers learn their *real job* on the spot, once they past the (quite hard in some cases) interview. Most of them work on things they were not even requested on the job description in the end of the day.
<atmosx>
agent_white: so yes.
<atmosx>
workmad3: sure, it's 12:33 here though :-P
<workmad3>
atmosx: wait, jobs have descriptions beyond 'do the shit you're told to do' nowadays?
<workmad3>
atmosx: it's only 10:30 here :P
<agent_white>
atmosx: Yeah I'm excited and afraid of that... the reason I learned ruby is because of my first 'real job' being a spot as a NOC tech for a VOIP startup.
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<atmosx>
workmad3: s/descriptions/requirements
<agent_white>
I was told to learn ruby to test our site, then to manage our servers with puppet... and it went downhill.
<workmad3>
atmosx: same comment still applies ;)
<atmosx>
weaksauce: lol, well true hehe
<workmad3>
agent_white: my first job out of uni was meant to be C++, which it mostly was
<atmosx>
agent_white: devops
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<hs366>
hi
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<workmad3>
agent_white: but I also ended up learning a smattering of perl, a bit of python, how to configure some java apps, some traditional C...
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<agent_white>
atmosx: devops indeed. Though I got the watir/rspec and puppet soley due to the fact I indented my code whilst the other tech treated it like the config files we're so familiar with :P
<hs366>
can i have a short disc of let() method
<hs366>
plz
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<workmad3>
agent_white: I think most programmer jobs should really have requirements of "You need to be able to solve imprecise, incompletely specified problems with a variety of tools so that your solution doesn't end up being completely sucky"
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<agent_white>
workmad3: So the job was marketed C++ but learned the others along the way?
<arup_r>
hs366: let() is a helper method in Rsoec framewrok
<arup_r>
Rspec
<hs366>
what is helper ?
<agent_white>
workmad3: Hahaha :) As a programmer at that job I speak of said to me... "you think I know what I'm doing? Half the time I'm guessing and the other half I'm googling."
<workmad3>
agent_white: pretty much... the perl was because the toolchains we were dealing with was written in perl, the python was for a bit of build server scripting... the java app was the build server itself, the C was because the 'C++' we were using wasn't really standard C++ :)
<atmosx>
anyone off to write a blog post :-P
<atmosx>
cya later
<atmosx>
omg lol s/anyone/anyway
<agent_white>
atmosx: Cheers :)
<atmosx>
bbl
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<workmad3>
atmosx: have fun :)
<workmad3>
atmosx: is the post going to be on 'how to apply for entry level developer positions'? :)
<agent_white>
I hope so... rather "what to expect in the first 3 months"
<agent_white>
And how to deal with the curveballs :P
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<workmad3>
agent_white: 'knowing what you're doing' at that level is pretty much the opposite of what you hire developers to do, IMO ;) If the developer knows what they're doing in a particular implementation, that probably means they've done it before and so can pretty much use the original code
<workmad3>
agent_white: so by extension, pretty much everything useful you get a developer to do is stuff they don't actually know how to do yet
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Ahhh... well this was a startup so I _think_ it was pretty much "just do it and see what happens".
<agent_white>
workmad3: Ahhhh
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<workmad3>
agent_white: or, in other words "Software development is almost entirely research into how to make computers do stuff"
<agent_white>
Hahah :D
<hs366>
arup_r, what is similar to let in ruby ? im not sure if i use RSpec in my proj
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<arup_r>
hs366: what you are trying to do?
<agent_white>
workmad3: Well I have no problem landing interviews and doing well in them, just worried about what happens after (I'd be looking into getting a development slot intead of IT/devops/etc.)
<workmad3>
(hmm... I might keep that thought around somewhere... it dovetails with "Computer science is research into what computers can do")
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<agent_white>
A good blog post would be "how to settle into the unknown" or learning about a new system of things.
<agent_white>
arup_r: Being a dev-in-self-training, I cannot begin to picture how to grap a system not written by myself.
<arup_r>
ok.. got it
* agent_white
shrugs
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<agent_white>
workmad3: So lesson is, get in, snag the gig, ask TONS of questions until it's solid in your mind?
<workmad3>
agent_white: take lessons from mathematicians and scientists on how they learn new theories maybe?
<hs366>
arup_r, thx. i think i need to study how it's work, I'll be back later
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Well theory and practice seem entirely different.
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<workmad3>
agent_white: I think you grasped entirely the wrong meaning from what I suggested :P
<agent_white>
In that theory doesn't have a deadline with your ability to eat and sleep in a bed living off it :P
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Probably... I'm probably looking too far into it. :)
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Last question to bug you with. Sounds like you've worked with jr devs... what did you expect of them starting fresh, what did they do, and how did they succeed?
<agent_white>
Maybe that's a good blog post ;P
<workmad3>
agent_white: scientists and mathematicians need to, in practice, be able to take large systems of axioms, calculations, ways of looking at the entire universe that they didn't come up with and reduce or transform them into something they understand... these large systems are new theories, new mathematical techniques, etc.
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<agent_white>
Ohhh
<agent_white>
I see what you mean :)
<workmad3>
agent_white: so maybe look to how *they* do that for advice on how to do pretty much exactly the same thing ;)
<shevy>
hello people
<agent_white>
workmad3: Good deal... never thought about that. I see what you mean :)'
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<workmad3>
agent_white: that's a connection I've only recently become aware of, tbh... mostly after reading "Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman" and some of his anecdotes in there about how he picked up theories that, at his first perusal, seemed entirely alien and impossible for him to understand
<hs366>
Hi shevy
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<shevy>
ah the C++ guy right?
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<hs366>
yes
<hs366>
now im going to be ruby++
<hs366>
lol
<gregf_>
C++ is prolly the 'best' language on the planet ;)
* certainty
pukes
<workmad3>
agent_white: as for your last question... yes, I have, and mostly what I learned (from not doing it particularly well) was that I need to have patience to let them figure stuff out on their own
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<hs366>
gregf_, agree
<agent_white>
workmad3: Awesome, I'll take a look into that :)
<workmad3>
agent_white: I'm bad at setting my own expectations though... so I tended to expect too much, too quickly, which resulted in me then just doing too much for them and removing learning opportunities
<agent_white>
workmad3: Though the reverse of that, should they be hammering you with questions at least to begin with?
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<workmad3>
agent_white: I'd personally not expect hammering... what I'd expect is a few questions, and then them to assimilate that and rethink their other questions and see if they can now answer them on their own
<shevy>
hammer me with love instead!
<slackR>
which ide do you all guys use?
<agent_white>
shevy: <3 BLAM
<shevy>
slackR just a simple gtk-based editor here really
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<shevy>
I think you won't really need an IDE in ruby after some time, most common methods you'll memorize, for the few extras you can look things up quickly, and most code tends to be very simple
<slackR>
shevy: vim is what most people use
<workmad3>
slackR: a very small magnet and a clean-room so I can leave my disk platters exposed and manipulate them directly
<shevy>
yeah, they make me very sad
<gregf_>
heh
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<slackR>
Ill be fine with vim hen
<slackR>
then*
<slackR>
thanks
<workmad3>
slackR: I wouldn't suggest it if you're prone to shakey hands while not drinking enough caffeine
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<agent_white>
workmad3: It sounds like the deadline does make it rough to find a balance between the need to spoonfeed and letting them learn? And good deal :) Were/are they tasked with... bug-hunts to start?
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<slackR>
workmad3: Im using vim since a month, Hoping I wont have any problems
<certainty>
vim is a fine editor. not the worst choice
<certainty>
agent_white: haha
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<slackR>
Thanks anyway
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<workmad3>
agent_white: no, they were being given features to implement, etc. and the occasional bug hunt when they cropped up... not sure whether that was a good move now or not, tbh
<workmad3>
agent_white: but I remember from past experience that un-ending bug hunts wasn't exactly fun when you're first starting... however, I think it's also useful experience as it teaches you to at least pay attention to what the computer tells you
<agent_white>
workmad3: Interesting. I've heard mixed things about it... from "you brew the coffee." to "fix bugs" generally :P
<workmad3>
agent_white: I've hardly got a lot of experience in the area though :)
<agent_white>
Oh I bet!
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Ey that's fine. I appreciate your input regardless... helps to ease my nerves trying to snag a new job.
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<agent_white>
:D
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<workmad3>
agent_white: I think one of the things I'd change in the future would be to give less of an impression of a safety net... don't always be available to answer questions, don't always spoonfeed, and still have the expectation that they'll do their job and produce stuff
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<workmad3>
agent_white: simply as a way to force a more junior person to act on their own initiative, find out their own answers... but still have the safety net there, even if I've hidden it from sight ;)
<agent_white>
workmad3: And what would've you changed being in their spot?
<agent_white>
;P
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<workmad3>
agent_white: I'm not sure tbh... I can think back and spot mistakes, but I've not thought about the situations enough yet to figure out how I could have improved on my performance back then
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Fair enough. Maybe the inverse of what you said then? -- Don't expect a safety net, dig until you can't anymore, aim to produce ?
<agent_white>
:)
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<Musashi007>
man what an interesting conversation
<Musashi007>
can i ask how old you are workmade
<workmad3>
Musashi007: 30 :P
<Musashi007>
reasonable
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<Musashi007>
your answers are always very concise so id imagine you’re pretty good
<Musashi007>
irrespective of your age
<agent_white>
workmad3: Thanks for the answers and your time, by the way :) Hope maybe I didn't drone out arup_r's discussion too much.
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<shevy>
drones are so sexy
<Musashi007>
depending on the drone...?
<workmad3>
agent_white: well, my first job out of uni (the C++ one... wow, only 8 years ago, now I think about it), there was a training period but after that I was thrown straight onto a small project that was just me... so I had to figure out a lot on my own there (and I didn't do a good job in some places... didn't push to get various things done that I couldn't do myself, such as initiate signing processes, etc.).
<shevy>
Musashi007 only because workmad3 hasn't yet been to the pub, you should see his answers afterwards!
<workmad3>
.. then I was dumped into a team where I spent a lot of time bug fixing (I ended up being in charge of maintaining the bug database there... I dug into the database, started organising it, etc. on my own steam and ended up as the person who knew how it worked)... another project there, I ended up in a similar situation in charge of translations... so I don't think I ever had much problem digging in on my ow
<workmad3>
n without prodding
<workmad3>
shevy: or get me on a voice chat... at that point, half the sounds out my mouth are 'um' and 'er', I stop in the middle of sentences, backtrack and change direction... my wife gets very annoyed with me at times :P
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<Musashi007>
@shevy what’s it called? the ballmer peak?
<Musashi007>
are you guys british?
<workmad3>
Musashi007: I am
<Musashi007>
@workmad3 figured :D
<agent_white>
shevy: Don't worry, I'm picking up the slack! ;D
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<Musashi007>
a lot of people don’t want to dig and you can’t really teach a curiosity like that
<flughafen>
certainty: i made home made spaetlze last night
<agent_white>
workmad3: :) It sounds like what I'm expecting I suppose... like you said, "figure it out on the job".
<workmad3>
Musashi007: s/you can't really teach/we haven't yet figured out how to teach/
<Musashi007>
think its possible?
<agent_white>
I just hope that maybe the gig I had prior was an outlier compared to some others. Either I wasn't ready for it, or it wasn't right for me.
<Musashi007>
for the giving of fucks to be taught?
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<workmad3>
Musashi007: I'm not convinced it isn't... but I'm somewhat convinced that our current methods of training are inappropriate for that task
<Musashi007>
i guess i don’t know
<Musashi007>
but i’d agree our current methods aren’t adequate - in fact they probably server to do the opposite
<Musashi007>
also, it seems like teaching something would be like extending a class whereas waht we’re talkinga bout would be rewriting said clas
<workmad3>
Musashi007: basic tenant - things we don't know how to do seem impossible, right up until the point we know how to do them, at which point they seem obvious ;)
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<Musashi007>
sure… but not everything is that way
<workmad3>
Musashi007: I'm open to a counter-example
<Musashi007>
you’re talking knowledge of how to do it or practically speaking
<Musashi007>
davinci’s drawings of helicopters?
<Musashi007>
he didn’t know how to do it but it seemed possible ostensibly
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<agent_white>
Musashi007: I feel living up to the hype is more important than the hype. At least for me, I was beyond stoked about my past gig but a bit overwhelmed come to it.
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<Musashi007>
@agent_white i don’t really know what you’re talking about but i’d agree. a lot of people wouldn’t however.
<workmad3>
Musashi007: ah, good point... plenty of things do seem possible/plausible even when we don't know all the details about how to achieve it yet
<agent_white>
Musashi007: Well just you saying "giving a fuck" is really important. I just don't feel that is what makes things happen :D
<agent_white>
Extremely important, though.
<Musashi007>
@workmad3 ty sir.. although that doens’t really prove that something that seems impossible is possible.. given that it’s something that seemed possible but which was impossible
<agent_white>
o_0
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<workmad3>
Musashi007: I guess what I was more trying to comment on is that there's a tendency to grab the 'impossible' label and apply it to lots of things where what we really mean is "I can't even visualize a vague path to this point at the moment"
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<Musashi007>
@workmad3 that’s really true
<agent_white>
Because you've never seen that path before?
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<workmad3>
Musashi007: maybe it is impossible... maybe it isn't... the only real comment you can make is "I don't know the path"
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<shevy>
Musashi007 I am not british but I am a monty python fan
<Musashi007>
@shevy what’s that mean? :D
<workmad3>
Musashi007: and it's a completely different situation to something that is provably impossible... such as squaring the circle with straight-edge and compass :)
<Musashi007>
@workmad3 true and by declaring something to be impossible it makes it that much more difficult
<agent_white>
I like a combo of both your points. Musashi007 in that curiosity can't be taught but is innate, and workmad3 in that training that curiosity properly has yet to be mastered.
<Musashi007>
@shevy man I haven’t seen that movie for .. 20 years? :ol
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<workmad3>
Musashi007: it can do... it can also give you a good reason to ignore it until you've gained more knowledge ;)
* agent_white
gleans knowledge
<Musashi007>
@shevy i think i was too young to appreciate it at the time
<Musashi007>
@workmad3 i’m totally gonna use that one next time something seems difficult :D
<agent_white>
workmad3: I've heard that from podcasts from devs and other IT folks... the importance of moving on despite internal obligations to solve a problem.
<agent_white>
Musashi007: Amen. There's a good 'this developer's life' podcast about that
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<agent_white>
the episode "problems"
<agent_white>
Says what workmad3 did... the importance of knowing when to keep the ball rolling when you wanna figure it out at that moment.
<shevy>
it's hard to move on when you have not solved a given problem
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<agent_white>
shevy: Exactly.
<agent_white>
:)
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<shevy>
my dream is to delegate all these problems to slave programmers one day
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<Musashi007>
but not all problems need to be solved
<workmad3>
agent_white: in that sort of situation, I prefer to give myself a timebox tbh... if I'm feeling like I can't move on because of incomplete understanding, it's frequently because I feel *so close* to understanding it, not that there's a giant edifice of knowledge I need in order to grasp it fully
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<workmad3>
agent_white: so I'll try to recognise that and give myself a finite amount of time devoted just to understanding it... if I'm really that close, that timebox can give you enough time without worrying about the guilt of not moving on to finally get the understanding you were looking for
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Haha I love you bring that up because that's one thing I struggle with. Being self-taught and moving into the 'real world' makes constraints like that I'm not used to.
<agent_white>
Yeah exactly!
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<Musashi007>
@anget_white don’t worry people aren’t taught that in school
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<workmad3>
agent_white: and if it still seems to be just as tantalizingly out of reach... relegate it to a subconscious concern that you occasionally think about because it's most likely the situation that you don't really have enough knowledge to grasp it yet, but the answer will come over time ;)
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<workmad3>
agent_white: it's really hard to spot that sort of situation though
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<shevy>
agent_white just dive in like a man, not a mouse
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<agent_white>
Musashi007: It is _indeed_ something not taught in school.
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Very true. Maybe practicing it on my own would be a good idea just to help out :) It probably was the most disconcerning thing I experienced really getting into the real world.
<agent_white>
A touch of attention issues doesn't help ;P
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<agent_white>
shevy: I should adapt the agile mindset... until I drop a few tables.
<agent_white>
:D
<shevy>
hehe
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<agent_white>
Next interview... "Why are you qualified for this jawb?" -- "Well these dudes on IRC..."
<workmad3>
agent_white: just bear in mind that most people, when asking that question, don't expect an answer of "I'm not..." followed by an exposition about exactly how wrong the expectations of that question are... ;)
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<workmad3>
a.k.a. (most) people don't like it when you call them stupid and point out their mistakes
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<workmad3>
(I suspect many people here have learned that one from experience... :) )
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Indeed :) I make sure to throw them a curve ball. I've actually gotten into the "final applicants" of my past few interviews just by my cover-letter accompanied by a picture of a computer I took apart, fixed into a wall-mount with plexiglass and turned into a home server and explaining what I did to it and future intentions.
<agent_white>
Cover-letters are easy when you're excited about what you're doing, or what you _want_ to do :D
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Though I also found the right answer to "Can you/do you know how to...?" is "I don't, but I can find out how."
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<workmad3>
agent_white: sure... being able to demonstrate/explain that you know how to go out and find the answers is an important step :)
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<agent_white>
Hahah that's what I'm nervous about... being prepared for the whiteboard-altar sacrifice.
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<agent_white>
;P
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<certainty>
flughafen: i hob denkt, du seist bayer un' net schwobee
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<shevy>
certainty cool you speak bavarian?
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<shevy>
like a true barbarian
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<shevy>
the bavarian dialect is somewhat similar to austrian dialect; it feels like a brother tongue
<shevy>
though perhaps more western/middle austria than eastern austria
<agent_white>
My only issue is if I was wearing those and had an urgent need to evacuate liquids from my body. Or to put anything in my pockets besides thumbs.
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<certainty>
shevy: nope, no way. I just made that up
<shevy>
well no worries
<shevy>
you can be reborn as a true bavarian in your next life
<agent_white>
Just don't be a caterpillar
<certainty>
shevy: awesome
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<certainty>
the caterpillar from alice in wonderland
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<agent_white>
Well that wouldn't be terrible
<agent_white>
I only say it becuase they have been laying under my car tires lately for some reason
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<agent_white>
That's the downside. But the plusside is they are green on the inside like you imagined as a little kid.
<certainty>
reminds me of a song of jefferson airplane
<certainty>
damn i wish i had lived back then. I could have met grace slick
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<agent_white>
And gone to vietnam... well if you were/are in the states.
<agent_white>
;P
<certainty>
i am not :)
<certainty>
so i'd only have the cool stuff
<certainty>
maybe meeting her over in amsterdam along with jim morrison
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<agent_white>
Lucky duck. Maybe I would as well as foot fungus.
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<shevy>
agent_white you squish them?
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<shevy>
the caterpillars
<agent_white>
shevy: Not on purpose :( About an hour ago I saw one stagnant outside, and poked him with a twig until he wiggled so I knew he wasn't dead.
<shevy>
hehe
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<shevy>
when you drive in a car on a highway, sometimes it goes "PLOPP" and a big fat beetle gets squished on the front car window
<agent_white>
The ones under my car tires chose their fate. I was only a bystander to that madness.
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<shevy>
although curiously enough, I seem to remember this having happened more frequently ~25 years ago... so either there are less beetles these days, or some other explanation why that happened less frequently
<agent_white>
BAP
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<shevy>
agent_white ah I see so like... friendly fire
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<shevy>
"Sorry that I shot you, I DID NOT MEAN TO!"
<shevy>
I like that this is classified as friendly
<shevy>
imagine if it were hostile!
<agent_white>
shevy: I live in the "sticks/boonies" and that happened with a bird a bit ago. It was worse than the caterpillars :(
<workmad3>
agent_white: saying they chose it is suggesting that the caterpillar was capable of both conscious choice and of understanding what the giant covering that it crawled under was for
<shevy>
cool
<shevy>
so you are agent_nature actually
<agent_white>
shevy: NONO! I didn't ensure the caterpillars safety prior to the vehicles movement. It must've been a standoff protesting the spiders invasion of their villages.
<agent_white>
workmad3: Well... they are green inside so they must be sentient!
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<agent_white>
"I did not ensure" meaning at the time it was not calpable.
<workmad3>
agent_white: either that or they're plants... :P
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<agent_white>
workmad3: You're onto something...
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<agent_white>
Probably plant boogers since they're sticky and squirm around.
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<workmad3>
agent_white: :)
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Again I appreciate your feedback. The job search has been 'irking me a bit but that's helped to put me at ease about it.
<agent_white>
:D
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<workmad3>
agent_white: no worries... it was a nice discussion to get my brain going on a monday morning ;0
<workmad3>
err... :) even
<workmad3>
(finger slipped off shift)
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<agent_white>
workmad3: Good deal! As well as mind to keep it alive overnight! ;P
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<agent_white>
Accidentally a word or three there... maybe kept my mind alive for _too_ long.
<agent_white>
:P
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<shevy>
semi-off topic, does one of you know of a .pdf optimizer? like to compress a 1.5 MB .pdf into a ... 1.0 MB .pdf quality losses are acceptable
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<DylanJ>
shevy: adobe distiller can do that
<agent_white>
shevy: pdftk, ghostscript
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<shevy>
cool
<agent_white>
Maybeh
<agent_white>
woops wrong chan
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<shevy>
was this supposed to go on to #sexyCoders ?
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<agent_white>
shevy: Not until I 'coo'
* agent_white
winks at shevy
<ponga>
hi
<shevy>
yay ponga is here
<bradland>
shevy: i've not used pdftk, but ghostscript has a set of PDFSETTINGS called screen, which resamples everything to 72 dpi and makes reasonably sized files
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<flughafen>
certainty: i speak hochdeutsch
<shevy>
bradland ok cool
<shevy>
I shall write a ruby wrapper!
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<shevy>
and I shall name it ... pdf_optimizer.rb \o/
<shevy>
ponga are you still into crystal?
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<agent_white>
pdf_hacks.rb to upset the bigbawss
<agent_white>
ponga: Cocaine is much healthier.
<ponga>
what is this
<agent_white>
Intervention
<ponga>
im find with both ruby and crystal!
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<ponga>
call me a Casanova
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<baash05>
anyone use RVM to install ruby and find that the version you installed wasn't the right one?
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<baash05>
I installed 2.1.3 a while back and when I look I've got 2.1.2. Now this is on a formatted system and I was very careful to type 2.1.3. I even hardcoded it into a script..
<agent_white>
Then explain your issue, how you got there, what you expected, and relevant logs.
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<agent_white>
Also what you did to show you what was occurring was wrong.
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<baash05>
Well I'm getting this
<baash05>
Your Ruby version is 2.1.2, but your Gemfile specified 2.1.3
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<agent_white>
When doing...
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<agent_white>
And doing it where?
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<baash05>
Oh.. sorry I opened my app directory
<baash05>
and ran bundle linstal
<baash05>
install
<flughafen>
/bin/baash not found
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<ddv>
:)
<baash05>
This strikes me as odd because earlier in the terminal I saw "Install of ruby-2.1.3 - #complete"
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<baash05>
I would expect after RVM spat out the 2.1.3 complete that it meant my system had 2.1.3
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<baash05>
what I find really strange is that at no point did I type 2.1.2 during any install process. I even wiped my system clean when I noticed 2.1.2 the first time.
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<baash05>
full system format
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<baash05>
so I'm wondering.. could the be a reason 2.1.2 would be prefered over 2.1.3 during the install process.
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<baash05>
well.. on my system it prompts with a rather fun error that stipulates it's not a function.. But after some playing around it does what it should
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<baash05>
and uses the version
<baash05>
it uses it all over if I add --default
<jhass>
so
<jhass>
where's the problem?
<baash05>
well where did 2.1.2 come from
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<baash05>
I never installed it.. or did it come with 2.1.3
<jhass>
no
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<jhass>
it's likely your system ruby or whatever
<jhass>
I'm no magician that has access to your system to check
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<baash05>
I suppose that could be..
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<baash05>
I wonder if lubuntu comes with ruby..
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<agent_white>
Why not just remove all the rubies and start from scratch.
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<jhass>
why?
<jhass>
there's no problem
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<agent_white>
baash05: True. Though if the outcome is the same, you waste 30 min. The general way to install ruby is not via your distro's package manager, anyways.
<ddv>
err, androidbruce
<Nilium>
I always just install from source.
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<Nilium>
Takes very little time to build Ruby, so it's easy enough.
<baash05>
I suppose I could use the package manager to get it done.
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<jhass>
baash05: why are we still talking? You got the ruby you need, all is fine
<agent_white>
DON'T USE IT
<agent_white>
IT'S HACKED
<baash05>
Ha ha.. well jhass I already had the ruby I needed on my work computer, which is right beside me.
<agent_white>
No nevermind. I lied. Listen to jhass. ;)
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<baash05>
But I like to know why and how.. tis why I have the throw away os.
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<jhass>
sigh
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<baash05>
My work mates have that same sigh :)
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<jhass>
as said it's probably your system ruby
<agent_white>
baash05: Don't throw the burger if you don't enjoy tomatoes!
<jhass>
check your package manager
<jhass>
but don't remove it or reinstall your system, you only waste your time
<agent_white>
Yeah it'd be like groundhog day.
<agent_white>
bascht: How are you checking your ruby version?
<baash05>
I'm actually learning heaps about writing shell scripts and building a linux box.
<agent_white>
And what are the first 2 lines of your ruby program?
<agent_white>
:) True, but why not dive deeper before hand?
<jhass>
if you manage to get a running system out of that you'll have a far better understanding than installing lubuntu another dozen times
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<agent_white>
jhass: We are brothers in arch
<baash05>
I've considered arch a few times.
<agent_white>
Arch has an amazing wiki. I also second following it.
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<agent_white>
Focus fire the ruby issue first.
<baash05>
Yep. that's my thinking too.. and if I switched to arch I'd have to admit that I'm not really working on my own stuff, but rather having fun.. At least right now I can say to my self that I'm trying to figure out ruby..
<baash05>
It is how I procrastinate from doing my own project.
<baash05>
arch would be admiting I'm not doing my own project :)
<androidbruce>
thank you jhass ddv
<agent_white>
If you can't fix the issue in your current OS, you can't in the next one.
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<baash05>
true.. but I'm not really trying to fix it.. Jhass has a valid fix.
<agent_white>
Or optimistically, once you fix it here, you will be able to there.
<baash05>
I'm trying to find out why..
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<baash05>
well thanks guys/girls..
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<agent_white>
baash05: Did you figure it out?
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<sandstrom>
When running passenger (wired via ruby-install + chruby, passenger 4 running on nginx) I get the error 'cannot load such file -- bundler/setup'.
<sandstrom>
My guess is that this is an issue with $PATH, $GEM_PATH, $GEM_HOME or $GEM_ROOT and/or bundler combined with unix-users and shells. The user running nginx is `www-data` and the deploy user is `vagrant` (in this case). Ubuntu 14.04.
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<jhass>
try activating the environment with chruby and run gem install bundler
<jhass>
either as root if it's a system wide install or as the user nginx runs your app/passenger with
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<sandstrom>
jhass thanks, I'll try
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<Outlastsheep>
Hmm, I don't think Ruby would have any problems with that.
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<Outlastsheep>
If it's the /best/ language for the job, I can't say. But you'll surely be able to make it work.
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<catphish>
the answer to my question is: ssl_context.options = OpenSSL::SSL::SSLContext::DEFAULT_PARAMS[:options] | OpenSSL::SSL::OP_NO_SSLv2 | OpenSSL::SSL::OP_NO_SSLv3
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<shevy>
catphish god, how can you even remember all those flags?
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<catphish>
shevy: if only they were named nice ans clearly :)
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<catphish>
its not nearly as bad as: ssl_context.ciphers = 'ECDH+AESGCM:DH+AESGCM:ECDH+AES256:DH+AES256:ECDH+AES128:DH+AES:ECDH+3DES:DH+3DES:RSA+AESGCM:RSA+AES:RSA+3DES:!aNULL:!MD5:!DSS'
<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
or some method call either
<shevy>
'no_ssl2 no_ssl3'
<shevy>
hmm
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<shevy>
'disable_ssl2 disable_ssl3'
<shevy>
oh good
<shevy>
I don't want to use SSL
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<shevy>
ruby-gnome works in a somewhat similar fashion, it's almost a direct 1:1 mapping onto the C API
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<hectortrope>
try ruby interactive so I don't like and ruby the hard way seems copycat of python the hard so not liking it and poignant guide looks very old
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<hectortrope>
o'reilly not free :-(
<banister>
hectortrope you never said free
<undeadaedra>
you’re disliking things on such little things?
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<Nick_ZWG>
I fail to see how "Ruby the Hard Way is very similar to Python the Hard Way" is a bad thing
<hectortrope>
banister: ruby is opensource so i want to learn from free
<shevy>
the same guy wrote both books or?
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<undeadaedra>
I don’t like Nick_ZWG because he has a Z in his nick
<Nick_ZWG>
:<
<undeadaedra>
yay, seems off.
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<shevy>
yeah I don't like him either because he has a _ in his nick
<undeadaedra>
Sorry Nick_ZWG, was trying something.
<workmad3>
undeadaedra: you're one to talk... your nick has 'dead' both forwards and backwards :P
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<shevy>
perhaps he could rename his nick to NickWG
<undeadaedra>
workmad3: :p
<shevy>
I thought it was french
<shevy>
le undea'dr'ea'h
<Nick_ZWG>
oh god what have I done
<undeadaedra>
o_O
<workmad3>
shevy: hmm... that looks more elvish to me
<shevy>
le undeaded baguette
<shevy>
workmad3 those are the french!
<workmad3>
shevy: maybe a name from menzoberanzen...
<undeadaedra>
non
<shevy>
the british are more like dwarves
<workmad3>
undeadaedra: are you a drow?
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<undeadaedra>
A drow?
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<workmad3>
undeadaedra: dark elf from the forgotten realms DnD setting
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<undeadaedra>
I see.
<hectortrope>
banister: pointguide full of theory and animations... Any book or online source with ruby projects except rails
<banister>
hectortrope stop talking
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<workmad3>
undeadaedra: one of their main cities is menzoberanzen (or something close to that) and their names are things like 'drizzt do'urden'
<hectortrope>
banister: plz help me
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<banister>
hectortrope i can't help you any more than google at this point
<undeadaedra>
hectortrope: you asked, we replied. If you knock off directly every proposition we do, it won’t be easy.
<workmad3>
banister: plz help me... for free!
<workmad3>
banister: because open source!
<banister>
i've told you the resources i like
<banister>
lol
<hectortrope>
hahaha workmad3
<hectortrope>
banister: Thank you
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<banister>
np
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<Nick_ZWG>
Someone got a moment to help me figure out why this string gets munged?
<Nick_ZWG>
Here's what the code is, and I can't figure out why I get "..serial" as a result:
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<havenwood>
Nick_ZWG: Those put the "Distinguished" in DER, like a monocle and pocket watch.
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<Nick_ZWG>
havenwood: Indeed, but it's making my CSRs ugly.
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<Nick_ZWG>
All of my CSR attributes are preceded with ".."
<Nick_ZWG>
and I can't figure out for the life of me why
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<shevy>
module Foo; def self.bar; puts 'hi'; end; end <--- this is also called a class method? or a module method?
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<havenwood>
shevy: module method
<shevy>
ok!
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<Senjai>
shevy: havenwood Technically, modules are still classes. If you include Foo, it will be an instance method. If you extend Foo, it will become a class method. In either case 'self' is not required
<havenwood>
Senjai: If you neither extend nor include Foo.
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<havenwood>
Foo.bar
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<Senjai>
havenwood: Right, but IMO modules shouldn't be used for that purpose
<havenwood>
Senjai: Because you prefer Module#module_function or just don't like using Modules directly?
<Senjai>
havenwood: I dont like using them directly is all. I treat them as namespaces, or things that should be mixed into classes.
<havenwood>
Senjai: I like using them directly. Simpler the better.
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<Senjai>
havenwood: It's better than global methods, sure, but a method typically belongs to a class, somewhere, responsible for whatever data that method is performing operations on
<shevy>
well I use module methods already
<shevy>
the name class methods is weird when it is a module though
<Senjai>
shevy: It's a paradigm thats pretty common for stating that it shouldn't be 'included', but 'extended'
<havenwood>
Senjai: Ruby core uses #module_function extensively. Why take on the extra weight of a Class if you're not using instantiation?
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<shevy>
I use all variants
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<Senjai>
havenwood: Could you give me an example of where you use module methods?
<shevy>
the problem was here how to name the file for these extensions
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<shevy>
module Foo; end; touch class_methods.rb <--- hmmmmm what class
<Senjai>
huh?
<sandstrom>
jhass thanks for putting me on the right track earlier, with passenger/ruby/env/chruby/etc. I think I've gotten it working finally.
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<Senjai>
The Foo module would be in foo.rb
<shevy>
and it is!
<Senjai>
Foo::ClassMethods, could also be in that file
<shevy>
but I am not working with 10000 lines files
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<dionysus69>
hey guys, i need your feedback on gui program building in ruby, where should I start, dont offer me visualruby.net because it seems outdated, it uses glade gtk2, what if I wanna use glade?
<dionysus69>
is it worth starting visual programming in ruby at all ? are you guys familiar with it and what are best practices or best environments to work in, best ides or best tutorials?
<wallerdev>
what OS are you building for
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<wallerdev>
i would not make any GUI apps in ruby and if i did i'd just make it a browser app haha
<dionysus69>
either ubuntu or windows or cross platform
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<dionysus69>
wallerdev i guess I got the feedback i needed :) :D
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<dionysus69>
wallerdev: and so which language would you use to build standalone apps, i just got enthusiastic about gui apps hahaha
<dionysus69>
Senjai: I guess ye ye, RoR seems to be the best option if i want to write anything visual in ruby
<dionysus69>
Senjai: i know neither cgi nor sinatra haha
<c-c>
are you making a game?
<jhass>
dionysus69: maybe stop leaving us in the dark
<dionysus69>
Senjai: i know ruby on beginner level and RoR on starter levle
<jhass>
what's your concrete project
<jhass>
what's your goal
<jhass>
which problem are you solving
<dionysus69>
jhass: just generally, to improve skills, ultimately i want to master RoR but it seems quite allot of work
<jhass>
"something visual" will only get you shitty recommendation since that includes about everything
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<jhass>
yeah, okay
<jhass>
then first step is to come up with a specific thing you want to do
<jhass>
a project/idea you want to solve
<jhass>
researching technologies with which to do that and researching how you ship your solution to the end user is only the second step
<jhass>
you inverted that process, which is why you're struggeling and not getting clear recommendations
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<dionysus69>
jhass: well actually i had, at work i need to build this ecommerce website, but when I touched spree, it was obnoxious and if I ever do anything ecommercial in RoR, it will be from scratch and I dont skills close enough to implement 10% of ecommerce requirements
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<c-c>
I wonder if padrino is nice
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<c-c>
padrino guide looks real nice
<dionysus69>
and what is it, just a different way of doing RoR?
<dionysus69>
oh i see, that jruby again :D I have experience in java and i'd love to do it but i need more experience in ruby first
<dionysus69>
ruby syntax + java libraries sound a killer
<Senjai>
dionysus69: Use RoR, writing all this stuff from scratch from ruby is a bad idea.
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<dionysus69>
Senjai: yup, even with RoR i dont have enough skills to do ecommerce yet so I am not doing my work project with RoR unforunately
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<c-c>
I may be wrong but padrino should be simpler
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<c-c>
thats why I am eyeing it
<jhass>
I still think dionysus69 doesn't know what they want to do, just that they want to do something and it has to do with "programming" and "visual". I suggest we wait until they decide on either what they want to do or at least what specific toolchain they want to learn
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<jhass>
throwing random tools at them won't help
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<dionysus69>
jhass: why plural haha i am singular :P .pluralize gone bad ? :D
<dionysus69>
agarie: his obviously addressing multiple people not only by them
<dionysus69>
jhass: haha some serious gender neutralism here i guess, didnt actually know it existed :D I get it now :P I am a dude though haha
<jhass>
I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if I don't hit the right nuances of the singular they usage all the time
<jhass>
I'll try to remember, can't promise anything though, my IRC person memory sucks ;)
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<c-c>
lol looks like they think their docs suck
<jhass>
I like the English gender neutral they, since naturally developed in the language and just came out of usage. Opposed to German where we make new words and silly constructs which only highlight a not existing difference
<eam>
interesting that pronouns are not only gendered but also distinguish between humans and non humans
<wallerdev>
yeah they is interesting
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<eam>
which is why "it" doesn't work instead of "they"
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<c-c>
hmn, so, nginx, passenger, rack, padrino?
<wallerdev>
he/she is usually a more accepted term
<c-c>
what you think? ^
<wallerdev>
and they doesn't work in all contexts
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<wallerdev>
so you have to phrase things certain way sif you want to use they haha
<eam>
I'm going to start using "it" so as to avoid bias against artificial intelligences
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<jhass>
c-c: should be fine, I don't like nginx/passenger personally since you need to recompile all the time and prefer the nginx as proxy/appserver approach
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<c-c>
jhass: hows that differ, then
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<jhass>
well, you let nginx forward requests it can't handle to an application server listening on a unix socket
<jhass>
opposed to embedding the application server inside nginx, which is what the standard passenger setup does
<c-c>
why is the standard worse?
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<jhass>
I tried to phrase it in a way that makes clear it's just my opinion, but to spell it out: it's just my opinion
<shevy>
just to make clear
<shevy>
it's just his opinion
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<jhass>
thanks shevy
<shevy>
\o/
<jhass>
for passenger to embed into nginx you need to recompile nginx
<c-c>
ok, so theres no bottlenecks or problems - other than recompiling all the time
<jhass>
which either means you get a crappy version by your distro vendor or have stuff not tracked by your package manager on your system
<jhass>
which I dislike both very much
<shevy>
and incarnate in a loud russian battle cry while recompiling nginx
<eam>
jhass: well, hopefully one has an application deployment system to track it anyway
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<eam>
does anyone actually run ruby in production using the distro supplied ruby?
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<shevy>
not me
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<jhass>
I do
<jhass>
though it's arch :P
<eam>
once you're deploying an entire ruby runtime and a vendor bundle of gems, adding passenger/nginx to that stack isn't too significant
<c-c>
so getting the newest passenger is forbidden?
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<shevy>
eam I think it's common for lazy folks, such as sys admins, to keep with default ruby on a distribution once you have x servers/computers to manage
<jhass>
keep in mind there are multiple possible steakholders here
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<jhass>
what you describe is the standard company/server park perspective
<c-c>
whats a nice html templating library that doesn't use whitespace to denote blocks?
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<shevy>
huh?
<wallerdev>
erb
<shevy>
whitespace to denote blocks?
<pipework>
c-c: erector
<c-c>
shevy: in jade, suppose you have template logic? One misplaced tab can screw up a whole page
<atmosx>
c-c: no sparces, why no spaces?
<wallerdev>
erb 4 lyfe
<atmosx>
HAML for life
<wallerdev>
haml is dumb
<baweaver>
Elm :D
* baweaver
ducks
<c-c>
atmosx: ie. whitespace doesn't effect logic
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<atmosx>
c-c: like python
<pipework>
html2haml -e
<atmosx>
haml is epic
<c-c>
yeah, like python
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<atmosx>
no idea, how does slim wrk?
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<atmosx>
then erb
<c-c>
I do not think invisible symbols work well for controlling flow
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<jhass>
well, a good editor can make them visible :P
<atmosx>
where is arup
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<c-c>
surebutimplicitlogiclosestoexplicit
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<IceDragon>
shevy: please port Go's test package (specifically the T struct) to ruby
<pipework>
ERECTOR IS COOL 2
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<IceDragon>
I HATE SPECS NOW ;________;
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<shevy>
IceDragon but I hate testing! it's so boring
<pipework>
shevy writes documentation!
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<IceDragon>
shevy: I KNOW, BUT SOMEONES GOTTA DO IT
<IceDragon>
orz
<baweaver>
IceDragon: Not really
<shevy>
pipework well sort of. mostly just minimal documentation so that I remember what I did
<jhass>
use cucumber and let your sales people do it!
<baweaver>
Tie in generators to create base specs
<baweaver>
95% of the work done
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<baweaver>
Most of the headache is repeating the same pattern a few hundred times
<baweaver>
so just automate it
<c-c>
can I really force sales to do it?
<baweaver>
we're programmers, we're supposed to be lazy ;)
<IceDragon>
God, every single test framework I've seen so far is contextual, I just want to assert stuff: me writes code > me calls code > did it do what I wanted? > nope?: call :test_failed
<helpa>
Hi pagios. We in #ruby would really appreciate it if you did not use pastebin during your time with us.
<helpa>
Pastebin is not good because it loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting. Please use Gist (http://gist.github.com) or Pastie (http://pastie.org) instead. Thanks!
<helpa>
Hi eam. We in #ruby would really appreciate it if you did not use pastebin during your time with us.
<helpa>
Pastebin is not good because it loads slowly for most, has ads which are distracting and has terrible formatting. Please use Gist (http://gist.github.com) or Pastie (http://pastie.org) instead. Thanks!
<shevy>
pagios lol what is that?
<shevy>
"Segmentation faulty tree... 95%"
<shevy>
you mixed that message up right?
<pagios>
yea, sexy
<pagios>
no
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<pagios>
thats what is written i copy pasted
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<pagios>
on ubuntu is it better to isntall ruby 2.1 manually? the package manager is install 1.9.3
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<miah>
depends on if you want to live by the LTS nature of Ubuntu, or that you require a modern ruby.
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<pagios>
big changes from 1.9.3 to 2? i have a 1.9.3 book :)
<undeadaedra>
no so much
<undeadaedra>
not*
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<pagios>
angularjs for instance is doing a big jump from 1.x to 2.x
<miah>
right, the changes aren't huge. there are new features, and refinement of existing features.
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<miah>
and to be confusing, there are refinements ;)
<undeadaedra>
new syntaxes for things, but nothing really breaking 1.9 afaik
<apeiros>
wow, what's with github? slow for everybody or just me?
<miah>
it will fail, then succeed on the next attempt
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<miah>
i have a ton of ruby projects at work, so i have some boilerplate Makefile magic
<miah>
thankfully we deploy on linux, and our ci process doesnt have the same issues that i do locally
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<miah>
even though im running the same ruby
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<miah>
oh i have a meeting brb
<apeiros>
cya
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<snowball1301>
hey folks, does anyone know where are relative paths interpreted in a typical web stack? I don't see it in Sinatra or Rack so I think it's done by the web server..?
<snowball1301>
trying to see who/what converts GET /foo/../bar into just GET /bar
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<wallerdev>
yeah you could do that in nginx or something if you wanted an app to run inside a specific path only
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<wallerdev>
might be able to do it in rack or the rails router too? not sure
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<snowball1301>
I'm actually looking to disable it. it seems like any ruby app supports it
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<snowball1301>
hmm yea it's definitely implemented in the web server. looking in thin
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<jhass>
snowball1301: but a mitmproxy (mitmproxy.org) between nginx and thin, I'd expect nginx normalizes it
<jhass>
*put a
<snowball1301>
good point, will give it a try!
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<workmad3>
ytti: the GC won't guarantee that for a thread... it's perfectly valid to open the subprocess in a thread and share it between other threads, with no requirement that the first thread stays alive
<undeadaedra>
it seems to be the ls who becomes zombie
<ytti>
workmad3, so what determines the behavior?
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<undeadaedra>
ytti: you are responsible of closing the thread.
<ytti>
workmad3, clearly GC has sufficient information, as it was local IO object, with no references
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<ytti>
workmad3, so GC would have information to close it
<ytti>
undeadaedra, fair enough, i'd still like to understand what determines the behavior
<undeadaedra>
But with a block, it should close itself after running
<ytti>
as it's not consistent
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<undeadaedra>
ytti: closing the io may be cleaner, yes
<undeadaedra>
I’m not sure it would get rid of the zombie
<ytti>
it does, consistently
<undeadaedra>
ah
<undeadaedra>
so it’s IO which terminates the process on close, I’d say
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<ytti>
or calls waitpid()
<ytti>
maybe this is race condition?
<undeadaedra>
which is terminating cleanly the process ;)
<undeadaedra>
no, I wouldn’t say that
<ytti>
my Thread dies before ls is ready?
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<undeadaedra>
shouldn’t happen imo
<undeadaedra>
you do something else in your thread block ?
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<ytti>
i'm testing with just that code as shown
<ytti>
Thread.new { IO.popen 'ls' }
<ytti>
in irb (or pry)
<undeadaedra>
because just this code is pretty useless, no?
<ytti>
nothing else
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<ytti>
and i get 100% consistenty behavior, in given box where i'm testing
<ytti>
but which the bhavior is going to be in given box, i cannot determine
<ytti>
yes, this code is useless
<ytti>
i'm merely interested in what is going on, and what determines the outcome
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<undeadaedra>
The general rule is that you’re supposed to get rid of resources you allocate in the system
<undeadaedra>
close fds, wait for processes, join threads
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<undeadaedra>
Ruby may help with that because it has ways of doing it automatically
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<undeadaedra>
In the code above, I would say that you create an IO object which is not correctly dropped by ruby, so underlying resources are not correctly closed
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<eam>
ytti: wait() is called in the finalizer
<eam>
and finalizers may never run
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<undeadaedra>
If you’re interested in underlying layer, you may want to read fork(2) and wait(2) manpages
<eam>
gc only is useful for ruby-allocated memory. All other resources you must manually manage
<ytti>
(we can confirm it via ObjectSpace, and we can even run GC manually to ensure it was ran)
<eam>
ytti: maybe sometimes but there is never any guarantee
<undeadaedra>
workmad3: how do I english D:
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<workmad3>
undeadaedra: by being careful, because it's a language of ambiguity, stolen words and linguistic landmines? :)
<eam>
ytti: if you want to ensure that the cleanup happens in a way you can predict you have to run it yourself in your code
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<eam>
ytti: one way to ensure a finalizer is never called: Kernel.exit!
<undeadaedra>
workmad3: but that’s hard D:
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<workmad3>
undeadaedra: in which case, just keep on with your current strategy... throw out words that seem right in some vague order and hope that sense coalesces out of the random gibberish ;)
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<undeadaedra>
workmad3: ok
<undeadaedra>
thanks, mate
<workmad3>
undeadaedra: it seems to work for facebook and twitter after all
<ytti>
eam, even Thread.new { IO.open('ls'); sleep; GC.run(true, true) }
<IceDragon>
eam: set a to nil before calling the GC
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<ytti>
eam, won't remove the zombies, on machine which causes them
<eam>
IceDragon: yeah I forgot :)
<ytti>
s/sleep/sleep 1/
<workmad3>
undeadaedra: however, to answer your main question... 'undetermined' implies that you simply haven't worked out the behaviour yet, while 'non-deterministic' more correctly models the idea that the behaviour cannot be predicted in advance
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<ytti>
so it does not seem to be about GC necessarily
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<ytti>
i think it may be kernel/OS related
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<undeadaedra>
workmad3: the first one kind of implies the latter one, no?
<ytti>
s/GC.run/GC.start/
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<eam>
undeadaedra: no, undetermined means we don't know -- non-deterministic means we can't know
<workmad3>
undeadaedra: not really, no... something can be completely deterministic, you just haven't run it yet to know what it actually is
<ytti>
that is road to philosophical question :)
<eam>
ytti: sleep() never returns
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<ytti>
eam, i corrected it to sleep 1
<undeadaedra>
ah.
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<workmad3>
ytti: if you wanted to be exact then yes, it is possible than 'non-deterministic' as it applies to concurrency could simply mean "We simply cannot feasibly measure all the variables involved in order to provide a known outcome in advance" rather than "The behaviour relies on things that are fundamentally impossible to predict"
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<workmad3>
ytti: in practical terms, there's not much difference though :)
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<ytti>
descartes might argue nothing is knownledgable, dirac might claim everything is fully deterministic and knowledgable :)
<eam>
workmad3: well, it may depend on random numbers
<ytti>
but for this particular case, observed behavior is completely consistent in any given machine
<ytti>
just not same behavior in every machine
<workmad3>
ytti: it either always zombies or never does?
<ytti>
workmad3, yes
<eam>
ytti: sure, but that's not unexpected
<workmad3>
interesting
<ytti>
i thought so too
<eam>
I ran into a case once where the GC would reliably GC on one set of systems but not others in another country
<eam>
the difference turned out to be minor variations in gem load order and operating system updates and hardware
<workmad3>
ytti: I got some implication that on machines that zombied, it wasn't all the time... my mistake :)
<workmad3>
(slight aside... I *love* that I can use 'zombied' in a sensible sentence when talking about processes)
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<eam>
this reminds me I never tracked down that bug in ruby-2.2 where close() fires twice for some IO objects
<ytti>
eam, thanks
<workmad3>
eam: maybe you're seeing the 'close' invocations that aren't happening for ytti's problem? :P
<eam>
haha
<eam>
workmad3: it appears that close() in an ensure block *and* a close() from a finalizer both fire
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<eam>
and the trouble is one of those can fire after the fd is reused by another unrelated IO object
<workmad3>
eam: oh, I bet that's gonna be fun to trace :P
<eam>
which .. breaks things
<workmad3>
ya
<eam>
I think it's related to the new incremental GC in 2.2
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<DexterLB>
hello. I have a memory leak problem with open-uri: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4bc683f0e9c66f962c45 this code leaks about 10mb in 5 minutes, when I leave it overnight it gets killed by the OS for eating all the ram
<eam>
I have to let my example churn for about 5 minutes until the race blows up so it's a bit of a bear to debug
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<workmad3>
eam: hmm... the IO got promoted into a longer generation so didn't get checked for a while... when it then got checked, it examined the fd and discovered it's open (because it was reused in that time) so decides to close it?
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<workmad3>
(I really need to stop using 'it' all over the place and assuming the context is always obvious... :) )
<eam>
lemmie check my notes
<eam>
I put it down a few weeks ago and haven't looked at it recently
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<eam>
workmad3: one is getting triggered from rb_postponed_job_flush()
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<workmad3>
eam: heh, one of these days I'll have to dig into the ruby C source and figure out what happens there
<eam>
I'm not entirely sure myself and that's most of the problem
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<jhass>
DexterLB: if that code really reliably reproduces, you should open a bug. However since open-uri is just a convenience wrapper, just use the underlying libraries (net/http) in your real code
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<autojack>
I'm trying to track down a weird 'undefined method `[]=' for :checked:Symbol' error. does :checked:Symbol imply the code foo.is_a? Symbol ?
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<autojack>
just trying to narrow down what I'm looking for.
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<centrx>
It means you have a variable that you thought had a []= method, like an array
<DexterLB>
jhass: yep, using Net::HTTP::Get doesn't leak
<centrx>
but in fact, that variable represents a Symbol
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<autojack>
centrx: got it, OK. so far it is proving *extremely* difficult to track down. I suspect it's in the Puppet Ruby code, but the error being thrown doesn't give me a file or line number.
<autojack>
probably need to bug the Puppet people about it, but I wanted to make sure I even understand what the error is telling me.
<autojack>
so thanks!
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