2011-02-09

<rjeffries> knows a guy who has intimate knowledge of pcb fab. since I have cursory knowledge only
<rjeffries> I hope that as a friend he will give me a freebie 15 minutes of advice
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (or read it only if he's got time to kill ;-)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: "consultant" ah, okay. just send him the two mails then and tell him to skip all the stuff at the top of the first mail
<rjeffries> wpwrak "consultant" was a big word for a simple idea. a friend who has designed a VDSL2 box for
<wpwrak> rjeffries: for the quanitities you need for a reasonable price point, shipping shouldn't be such a big deal. after all, people order prototype pcbs in china.
<rjeffries> tuxbrain I look forward to you producing UBB. prolly will be able to purchase in quantity from Span and make available to my peeps
<wpwrak> rjeffries: is the idea for your "pcb fab consultant" to choose the fab and communicate with them ? or to advise you ? or do you mean that the "consultant" is actually the fab's person who accepts new orders ?
<rjeffries> cheap and fast
<rjeffries> I recently had good luck on mail foorm USA to Sweden
<rjeffries> how hard will it be to ship to USA?
<rjeffries> tuxbarin, a serious question, sir: if you produce UBB, and sell in europe for price X (tbd)
<rjeffries> is tuxbrain awake? I'll be damned. ;)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: wait and see has the benefit that you won't over-specify the board, possibly requesting details you don't actually care about but that make it harder to produce it
<wpwrak> rjeffries: if you want to send something a pcb fab can use directly, without the consultant making detail decisions for you, you'd read through the mail and process the decisions as they are outlined. then either pass them on, or just prepare an answer and wait if they need one.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (plus the drill file)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: if you want to send a lot of stuff, you'd send the "Industrially producing UBB" section. maybe remove things that are clearly background, like the disclaimer.
<rjeffries> is there now a ~single~ document of UBB PCB fab specs one might send to a pcfab "consultant?"
<rjeffries> wpwrak you NEVER dissapoint
<rjeffries> I knew someone whould be a SMARTASS <grin>
<wpwrak> rjeffries: the other one ;-)
<rjeffries> mirko: forgive me, which of the two mirkos are you? ;)

2011-02-08

<rjeffries> and totally understand why UBB does not catch wolfspraul imaginatiom
<rjeffries> agree
<rjeffries> in BIG qty I am sure this board could cost $00.50 USF or less
<rjeffries> interesting
<rjeffries> agree that 1,000 qty will be needed
<rjeffries> s/tixbrain/tuxbrain/
<rjeffries> I have no idea what they willcost landed in USA
<rjeffries> if Tixbarin fabs them he will sell a fair number in Europe
<rjeffries> oh I agree UBB is a sweet and simple product
<rjeffries> none of this makes economic sense when the world population of Ben Nanonoye is what, maybe 1,600 by now, tops.w
<rjeffries> even if he does not there may be a Sparkfun sty;e play with Ben 8:10 gadgets
<rjeffries> wolfsproul may, someday, offer a distributor discount that would allow distributor to make money
<rjeffries> actually I am being less than honesy
<rjeffries> s/honesy/honest/
<rjeffries> becaus etrying to fab a PCB just to learn is stupid beyond words. ;)
<rjeffries> s/stat/state/
<rjeffries> this may be much less of a learning exercise for him than me. The only reason I may go forward
<rjeffries> yes I have a LOW IQ. ket's just stat ethat right up front
<rjeffries> would be for the experience.
<rjeffries> No, I have not had time to start learning Kicad. I hope to find an eager engineering student at local
<rjeffries> college to dig in. we shall see
<rjeffries> he has a sales channel. I manly one a few for personal use
<rjeffries> PersonallyI hope Tuxbrain kcks in gear and does a run of UBB
<rjeffries> You had it as one document and then there was one more thiing.
<rjeffries> another guy runs a hackerspace I thought they'd be interested so far just a yawn
<rjeffries> I'll send him your specs and see what he says
<rjeffries> my buddies work with a guy who knows pcb fab inside and out
<rjeffries> wpwrak one at fisrt misunderstood my email and thought 802.15.4 was ready now
<rjeffries> I got back and apologized for the confusion
<rjeffries> she still wants a Ben
<rjeffries> wpwrak I have a lot of other things going
<rjeffries> I have a couple of friends who have recently had PCBs fabbed I willcheck with them on what house they like
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (two other people) i saw this and like it :)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: something to bear in mind: each ben sold means no only a return of money to wolfgang's pocket but also a slight strengthening of the case that can be made in favour of qi-hw
<wpwrak> rjeffries: the ben won't change for a while. so there's little point in procrastinating :)
<rjeffries> what does gn8 mean?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: you should advertize the idea of a ben/owner ratio > 1 :) for those who like to tinker, a second ben is quite desirable
<rjeffries> another perso is thinking about it
<rjeffries> so far one univesity hacker wants one
<rjeffries> it I set up a build of some BBB cards. I think wpwrak has layed out the plan pretty well
<rjeffries> I am waiting patiently as software matyres it is almost there.
<rjeffries> wolfspraul I did not realize I was asking for anything. ;)
<rjeffries> so whether sane or not, I plan to buy when the next stable bimage after the Dec 14 one is available
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: come on it must be sane. Once you have one we can finally support you better too!
<rjeffries> that is because small scale can do things that large scale can not dare to do
<rjeffries> well, so far it looks like I'll simply buy one myself when the next s/w load is ready (I understand I will have to reflash)
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: great! [mails and presentation and group buy]
<rjeffries> s/lies/likes/
<rjeffries> so far two people besides one for me
<rjeffries> back to the Ben group buy
<rjeffries> I will present Ben overview at a local Linux group (not the SBLUG)
<rjeffries> By the way, I have a friend who works with linix on the Palm platform and lies it  alot
<rjeffries> I put out a copule of emails about a possible griup buy of Ben NN
<rjeffries> and I liked the idea a LOT
<rjeffries> new topic
<rjeffries> MeeGo is DOA.
<rjeffries> meego is prolly toast. I had hopes for it, bt they have screwed around too long
<rjeffries> wpwark the layesy Windows Phone 7 is damned good. has a unique and good GUI
<rjeffries> wolfspraul I am not suggestion you can or should like it. it doesn't matter
<wpwrak> rjeffries: MS isn't much better (in mobile)
<rjeffries> I'd put HP at top of the list
<rjeffries> I saw the discussion
<rjeffries> Intel can't find it's ass with both hands (in mobile)
<rjeffries> Infineon is uninteresting. this is not about who can make baseband chips
<rjeffries> Ron? who is this "ron" who supposedly "has an idea?"
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: we were discussing this before you joined, but HP is a new one :-)
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: I like a big intel move.
<rjeffries> My prediction is Nokia will team with HP WebOS or Microsoft Windows Phone 7. Android is a NO for multiple good reasons
<rjeffries> Good Evening. Since you asked, yes, the Nokia internal memo is fascinating
<wpwrak> tuxbrain, rjeffries: how are things going with the pcb fabs ?
<rjeffries> Jay7 that is interesting Thanks. I live in Arroyo Grande, California, USA
<Jay7> rjeffries: I'm from Ulyanovsk, middle Volga
<Jay7> rjeffries: you was asking about from where in Russia am I iirc

2011-02-07

<rjeffries> I just sent a Dockstar (small computer) to Sweden by mail, cosy ne $15, was there in about 1 week. pleasantly surprsies
<rjeffries> s/ubunto/ubuntu
<rjeffries> I have Ubunto machines
<rjeffries> s/tanks/thanks
<rjeffries> how much work is required to reflash Ben to a new version? assume NEW user, not tools set up pls. Tanks
<rjeffries> if nothing else...
<rjeffries> wow
<rjeffries> I think I;ll have a bronze statue of you created and place it on a pedestal in my yeard
<wpwrak> rjeffries: let's see who has the first boards - you or tuxbrain ;-)
<rjeffries> hi wpwrak
<wpwrak> tuxbrain, rjeffries: all you'll ever wish to forget about UBB is about to hit the list :)

2011-02-05

<rjeffries> Jay7 where in Russia if I might ask?
<rjeffries> hi
<rjeffries> anybody around?
<rjeffries> s/exicting/exciting
<rjeffries> had a long (5 hour) drive today. came up with a few new contril-oriebted use cases for Ben NN one we have fast serial connectivity, either wired (lowest cost) or wireless 6LoWPAN with wpwrak atBen and atUSB. exicting future for Ben methinks.

2011-02-04

<rjeffries> zrafa: +1 Jlime graphic is clever
<rjeffries> good evening

2011-02-03

<rjeffries> if you desire a decent bottle of wine I live in wine country. although I do understand wines from Argintina are drinkable;)
<rjeffries> ciao and ducks
<rjeffries> ok sorry for my mistake
<rjeffries> no
<rjeffries> what is correct email pls
<rjeffries> I will try to do better. wolfspraul whne will you resond to my email of yesterday?
<rjeffries> good night
<rjeffries> good night all. I aplogize for meing enthusiastic about what wpwrak is doing.
<rjeffries> tuxbrain that is happening but I would argue that BNN is good enough now for the stuff I see wher eit is a cheap dedicated master for a sensor/actuator Pod
<rjeffries> a NanoPod(tm)
<rjeffries> once it can be interfaces, life changes
<rjeffries> the other thought is how doe we find an entire new market(s) for BNN
<tuxbrain> rjeffries: there is only one way, improving software
<rjeffries> would not make economic sense to ship outside usa
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: I give it away, because no matter which way I turn this, I cannot make a business out of it.
<rjeffries> I understand wolfspraul
<rjeffries> I am noodling about doing a batch in USA
<rjeffries> so what will you sell the street 8:q0 cable for wolfspraul
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: roughly 400
<rjeffries> but you must mark them up so I assume sell at $25
<rjeffries> wolfspraul do you have an approx number of Bens now in USA
<rjeffries> wolfgang I am going to bed. ok too many things on  your plate. tuxbrain let us know how soon you can build ubb
<rjeffries> do you agree of use case for UBB now
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: I can make ubb in a heartbeat. we are discussing how to best parallelize things among us, and how to find actual valuable use cases as quick as possible.
<rjeffries> wolspraul so you wnat to pass on UBB even though it is simple
<rjeffries> Ormotermes that is the direction that will interest many people
<rjeffries> well the complexity of that is about 100x UBB but whatever
<rjeffries> wolfspraul I did not thing atBen was even a question
<rjeffries> having it ALSO serve in lab environments is all good
<rjeffries> after 18 monyjs BNN is well understood as a linux small pocket computer
<rjeffries> tuxbrain understood but that drives cost up due to connector cost and assembly.
<rjeffries> not sure best way to handle the breadboard end of the ribbon cable
<rjeffries> I do like wpwrak way to attach cable with superglue
<rjeffries> I know that. need to understand tradeoff of yor design vs the wpwrak UBB
<Ornotermes> rjeffries: my breakout board is made with DIY in mind, but there is nothing stoping you or anyone else to manufacture and sell them
<rjeffries> wolfspraul what is fpv ??
<rjeffries> so who cares if Uart plus directly in, or is on seperate NanoPod (TM, rjeffries;)
<rjeffries> BNN is right now an unconnected Linux system
<rjeffries> atBen + atUSB give it a wireless link
<rjeffries> UBB lets me build any damn thing I want to
<rjeffries> Ben needs hardwrae people
<rjeffries> the old Ornoterms breakout is prolly for him only
<rjeffries> atBen is your wireless lifeline
<rjeffries> now that wpwrak and others have opened Ben to interfacing to outside stuff, it opens many doors
<rjeffries> I talked with a grad student EE and he was quite interested in NN used in lab and as a master for a small conytol system
<wpwrak> rjeffries: and they refine their projects, too.
<rjeffries> whatever. DIY is not a dirty word in my worl. it is not central focus og NN but can provide extra sales
<wpwrak> rjeffries: most DIYers make more than one project in their lifetime :)
<wpwrak> rjeffries: see above :)
<rjeffries> tuxbrain that would imply someone with multiple NNhow common is that?
<rjeffries> nods to tuxbrain
<rjeffries> tuxbrain can make an extra several USD with this litt;e board
<rjeffries> COGS cost of goods sold but you already know that
<rjeffries> tuxbrain yes s/follar/dollar
<rjeffries> oh good I learned something new!!!!
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: I am thinking, trying to understand. so I ask myself questions, like "what if I would add this to every ben?" (and many other questions)
<rjeffries> good wolfspraul that's why ypu run sharism and whatever you do will be fine by me
<tuxbrain> rjeffries: please tellme that follar-> dolar
<rjeffries> wpwrak yes AGREE wolfspraul had mentione just throwing ubb in Benevery ben box. that increases Ben COGS by a follar or so
<rjeffries> distributors love accessories
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (increases the cost) au contraire :-) whatever accessory can be sold in addition to the ben HELPS sharism and the distributors ;-)
<rjeffries> tuxbrain hav eyou started shopping it around? I assume there are proto PCB fabs in Spain?
<rjeffries> s/hrst/hurts
<rjeffries> tuxbrain good on you will you build in Europe or??
<rjeffries> tuxbrain anything that increases cost of ben hrst sharism
<rjeffries> ok. was it 9:10 at one end?
<rjeffries> so ubb does that but will be cheaper by a factpor of 10
<rjeffries> I am nbaffled
<rjeffries> I do not know that what did it cost
<rjeffries> just because YOU don't want doesnt mean that engineering students would not
<rjeffries> which part of connect to a breadboard do you not understand? it is so obvious
<rjeffries> you have a valid focus ther are other viewpoints
<rjeffries> ok so I am clueless I don;t care what you say aboy that
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: yes but we had the breakout cable already, in fact I already made 10 and gave them away here and there.
<rjeffries> so if you wnat to make it better, add the cable, put the right connector on other end for breadboard and charge I dunno $20
<rjeffries> you do not care to cater to DIY hobbyist that is OK.
<rjeffries> breadboad is prolly best example
<wpwrak> rjeffries: relax :)
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: maybe I actually care what those hobbyists do, rather than selling into their cluelessness.
<rjeffries> oh that is crap. making ubb by hand as a one off is a pain in the ass
<rjeffries> whatever
<rjeffries> I woul NOT burden the Ben with the extra cost
<rjeffries> I'd much rather pay say $5usd or more and be done with it
<rjeffries> so what is it soi hard for you to wrap your (smart!) mind around boards like UBB and uart 8:10.
<rjeffries> think about Asafruit. You dislike them am Sparkfun and one would assume dANGEROUS pROTOTYPES AND sEED sTUDIOS
<rjeffries> BUT THOSE ARE ALL HEALTL (sorr for vcap accidentaiL\\
<rjeffries> that is your question. you approach this as if copyleft does not mean that the tuxcrain s or others do not start making little add-ons
<rjeffries> the UBB does not belong in BEN box because many people do not need it
<rjeffries> it belongs in an experimentes kit
<rjeffries> uart 8:10 gives one a righeos serial to connect to GPSm and and numver of other bards
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: yes, the uart board (with uart ic)
<rjeffries> mu vision is as follows: atBen we all understand
<rjeffries> NO. it is a non-starter electronically. you need a couple of chips. this ain't rocket science
<rjeffries> and if you don't like UBB that is ok. it is a free world
<wolfspraul> rjeffries: you mean serial connection with the ubb, without additional ic?
<rjeffries> can build a board that uses serial connection to Ben
<rjeffries> the design on uart 8:10 uses smt as YOu pointed out to me. so UBB extends toe Nen GPIos to where anybody
<wpwrak> rjeffries: the GPIOs plus power. not necessarily SPI :)
<rjeffries> wolfspraul I am puzzled why you don't get it that extending the SPI signals to where a DIY person can muck about is awesome
<rjeffries> why are you so negative Wolfspraul?
<rjeffries> it's not like you personally will be responible for mfh this simple PCB unless you choose to
<rjeffries> UBB should be not too hard for a commercial PCB fab
<rjeffries> wolf you probably STEAL the wpwrak circuit design that alreday exists but you might use a different (non surface mount) AVT
<rjeffries> wolfspraul any number of diy designs prolly using a AVR chip.
<rjeffries> re UBB I would argue u=it also makes it fairly easy to connect a bredaboard where one can do e.g. things like the uart design
<wpwrak> rjeffries: (coating) isolation
<rjeffries> ciao all
<rjeffries> memorial service will be held on irc. after he is cremated
<rjeffries> anybody want to contribute to flowers for his funraL
<rjeffries> universal breakout board I guess
<rjeffries> oh what is UBB
<rjeffries> BOB only lived for thre eminutes. May he rest in peace
<rjeffries> break out board I thought you called it BOB ;)
<rjeffries> I understand that wiyj uart or atBEN bit not for BOB
<rjeffries> for BOB why bother?
<rjeffries> you said coating did you mean cutting
<rjeffries> what does that notch do on 8:10 is it a detent?
<rjeffries> how well specified is that. Oh I assume it costs extra. an extra step
<rjeffries> would those be cut apart and milled to the right shape?
<rjeffries> a week is nothing
<rjeffries> $1usd
<rjeffries> the BOB-8:10 should end up at what? %1 USD
<wpwrak> rjeffries: the USD 500-1000 are based on a quite i ran on 4pcb.com. for quantities 1-1000.
<rjeffries> cool for this board or other?
<rjeffries> I was thinking that uart 8:10 might be even better wuth RJ45 female connector. thos are cheap
<rjeffries> but yout 3 prong connector ain't bad either
<rjeffries> you can tell I am not an EE
<rjeffries> you mean 500-1000 final BOB 810 right? might be a panel that has woo small images on it that break apart?
<rjeffries> oh yes good thought and my gut says yes. smebody will screw up and that will I think blow the Ben
<wpwrak> rjeffries: calculate USD 500-1000 if doing it in the US
<rjeffries> anuhow you are on a roll. do you consider the uart 8:10 as being good to go now?
<rjeffries> wpwrak  understood. wonder how much pcb place will charge to mill out the ofset part
<rjeffries> how well is that shown in the KiCad file?
<wpwrak> rjeffries: also, you probably want to make around 1000 pieces or more. otherwise, the setup cost is something like 90% of the price.
<wpwrak> rjeffries: the only difficulty is the precise outline of the 8:10 card
<wpwrak> rjeffries: yes, you'd want to make a panel. the pcb house may also be able to do this for you.
<rjeffries> tuxbrain are you here
<rjeffries> with drawing showing where to make the snap apart zones (I do not know correct lingo)
<rjeffries> to do an efficient PCB run at a board house I think we need a maytix of a bunch of UBBs
<rjeffries> UBB rocks wpwrak

2011-02-02

<rjeffries> ok nice meeting you and good dat/night/morning hwatever
<rjeffries> understood
<rjeffries> ok I see what you are doing
<rjeffries> has "limited intelligence" and needs sleep to maintain the small number of remaining brain cells. a neuron is a terrible thing to waste
<rjeffries> those 3rd party switches have mcus but it is not YOUR problem
<rjeffries> why ar eyou endpoint non-intelligent? MCUs are so cheap maybe you did not mean no MCU, just limited intelligence
<rjeffries> but that is naive for many real world situatons such as BUILGING COTROL
<rjeffries> I've been thinking about a non-hostile environment
<rjeffries> nods
<rjeffries> I had not thought through the security stuff at all
<rjeffries> cool
<rjeffries> I think 802.15.4 radios is a good idea, that is waht werner is using
<rjeffries> he uses the HopeRF  or similar chips in 800 Mhz or so
<rjeffries> for atBen and atUSB (as you know)
<rjeffries> bright guy one man shop very inventive and a nice guy
<rjeffries> s/abs/Labs
<rjeffries> have you loked at waht Jee abs is doing?
<rjeffries> security is a bitch I agree
<rjeffries> czr yeah wireless will help for existing residence
<rjeffries> brb
<rjeffries> ok. so what communication method do you use between master and slaves is it wirelss
<rjeffries> ok cool. I will check it out
<rjeffries> well there is this thing called google translate
<rjeffries> what does your company do if I might sk
<rjeffries> s/sk/ask
<rjeffries> ar eyou an EE
<rjeffries> but in medium quantity we can do ok in USA
<rjeffries> yes it is due to environmental and other issues
<rjeffries> but lots of conference calls were dreadful
<rjeffries> if you have any gree showing on the PCB you have not packed enough on it
<rjeffries> the contract manufacturer we used has SOME people with good english skills and who were smart
<rjeffries> batches were form a fe hundred to a few thousand very complex 8 or more llayer boards
<rjeffries> oh yes. our CTO had a rule
<rjeffries> the sheet metal was ok
<rjeffries> trust me quality was an ongoing issue
<rjeffries> the compaby where I worked never had on-site person in China.
<rjeffries> Nice place I have visted a few times in an earlier life
<czr> rjeffries, in Finland
<rjeffries> I just sent wolfspraul a letter asking about uart card
<czr> rjeffries, did you have existing people in China and how large batches did you do?
<rjeffries> czr may I ask weher you are on the globe? ;) I am california
<rjeffries> tuxbrain hello
<rjeffries> quality was OK to excellent
<rjeffries> it save a lot of money and in general with a LOT of care and feeding
<rjeffries> they had dense ball grid arrays to yes soldering issues are always a bitch
<rjeffries> czr i worked at a US company that moved all manufacturing to China
<rjeffries> On another matter I will email you a couple of questions directly