adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org and http://caml.inria.fr | http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.0.html | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<Leonidas_> is there an easy way to factor out printf format strings without having to specify type signatures?
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<Leonidas_> let foo = "%s";; Printf.sprintf foo "Bar";; complains about the type of foo
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<Khady> you may write let foo = Printf.sprintf "%s";; foo "Bar";;
<Leonidas_> yes, currying might be the best solution
<Leonidas_> because specifying signures like ('a -> 'b, unit, string) format for mere strings looks super-ugly
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<Leonidas_> is it possible to put a computation in lwt into the background?
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<Guest2834> Leonidas: Lwt_preemptive
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<whitequark> Drup: hahaha I just realized I can write fun%expr () -> x
<whitequark> cue most unreadable code ever
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<Leonidas> adrien_: I've used async and it seems to work. Wrong?
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<adrien_> "async"? you mean, the library?
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<Leonidas> adrien_: no, Lwt.async (fun () -> …)
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<adrien_> I understood "background" as putting it the computation in another thread
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<Leonidas> adrien_: I don't mind where the computation happens, I just want to return early from a function yet be sure that the computation will get completed.
<Leonidas> I'll look into Lwt_preemptive, too
<Leonidas> so far, I kinda like Lwt, but Ocsigen, well…
<adrien_> preemptive uses a separate system thread
<Leonidas> that might be indeed better, since I'd like to accept HTTP requests in the meantime
<Drup> Leonidas: you're still afraid to be spoiled by Ocsigen and not able to do ruby webdev after ? :p
<Leonidas> Drup: hahaha. No, I am using it, but often just lost
<Leonidas> (I was doing Python webdev, tho')
<Drup> same difference :D
<Leonidas> Drup: e.g. the Sys.max_string_length does not work, since Ocsigen seems to be allocating the whole buffer
<Drup> no but, I told you were doing it wrong already.
<Drup> don't use a streamservice to serve json when you have a simple alternative available
<Leonidas> Drup: maybe, but you said it would just use the memory it needs.
<Leonidas> yeah, I am using a string service
<Drup> I never said that, mrvn said that, and he doesn't know anything about ocsigen :D
<Leonidas> still, I get post data as stream
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<Leonidas> Drup: oh, sorry. Misremembered.
<Leonidas> (no offense)
<Drup> no problem :p
<Drup> what is your current issue ?
<Drup> (it may be better on #ocsigen, btw)
<Leonidas> Drup: everytime I wrote on #ocsigen, I never got a response ;)
<Leonidas> currently none, really
<Leonidas> oh, well, apart from it not building on ocaml 4.02
<Drup> really ? I try to answer when I can
<Leonidas> but that is fixed in git master, I heard, so just awaiting a new release
<Drup> anway, what's your current issue ?
<Leonidas> Drup: I was trying to return a value as an HTTP response, but start a background computation
<Drup> gné ?
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<Drup> what are you trying to do ? (not how you want to do it)
<Leonidas> I've solved it with Lwt.async, but adrien_ suggested Lwt_preemptive…
<Leonidas> Drup: I need to call a number of processes (for deployment) and trigger the execution via a HTTP request.
<Drup> async is fine, Lwt_preemptive is to be used when you want to launch something that do not use lwt and is going to block
<Leonidas> The "cool kids" call this stuff "webhooks".
<Drup> ah, right.
<Leonidas> is Lwt blocking when doing an Lwt_process.exec? I guess it does?
<Drup> no idea
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<Leonidas> oh, if I edit out CLIENT_FILES from Makefile.options, my compilation is so much faster :-)
<Drup> if you don't use client features at all, you don't need to have .eliom, you can have .ml only
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<Leonidas> Drup: so I should rename my eliom files to ml and adjust the SERVER_FILES option?
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<Drup> if you are sure you're not going to use eliom syntax extension in it, yes
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<Leonidas> ok, changed it. Works :-)
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<Drup> whitequark: pfew, sorry for the waiting time
<Drup> I did the oasis fix for lwt ppx
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<dmbaturin> Drup: That's the longest three-letter word sequence I've seen in a while. :)
<Drup> <3
<Drup> except oasis
<dmbaturin> Yeah, but we can think of it as a fuzzy match.
<adrien_> just make a fix for a lib from daniel bünzli instead
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<Drup> adrien_ : topkg has too many letters too
<adrien_> could be another lib
<Drup> (It's the first time I'm saying this about one of bunzli's lib =')
<adrien_> ;O
<adrien_> :P
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<whitequark> Drup: "suffix"
<whitequark> has two "f"
<Drup> f*ck
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<Drup> fixing
<whitequark> "ffck"?
<Drup> =')
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<Drup> done
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<whitequark> there is still the opam issue
<Drup> yeah, but we can postpone I think
<dmbaturin> Drup: type fck = f*ck
<whitequark> requiring downstream packages to depend on ppx_tools is *very* ugly
<dmbaturin> Where the opam package index and files are stored and who maintains it?
<whitequark> ocaml/opam-repository
<whitequark> and de-facto ... avsm, mostly
<whitequark> Drup: maybe base-no-ppx would work
<whitequark> I'll take a look
<Drup> I have no opinion about it
<Drup> as long as it's fixed, I don't really care how, I'll let opam people and you figure it out :p
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<tane> quick question: is the caml preprocessor turing complete?
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<Drup> what is "the caml preprocessor" ?
<tane> campl4?
<tane> camlp4
<Drup> camlp4 is obviously turing complete, yes, but it's not a preprocessor as you thing it is
<tane> ok
<Drup> think*
<dmbaturin> Not like C preprocessor or say m4.
<Drup> camlp4 is simply an ocaml library to implement syntax extension in ocaml, it's obviously turing complete
<tane> i just wondered if by using camlp4 ocaml source faces the same problems as templated-c++ code in the light of the halting problem of the compilation process :)
<Drup> I was going to says "it's not some half-assed pseudo language embedded in ocaml sources by deep magical rewriting", but camlp4 is totally that, in fact >_>
<dmbaturin> Well, you sure can introduce problems of this kind with it.
<dmbaturin> You can do it with lisp macros as well.
<Drup> template ≠ preprocessor
<Drup> if your issue is with templates, the ocaml equivalent is functors, and that's not turing complete afair (no unbounded recursion)
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<dmbaturin> tane: You only need camlp4 if you want to actually modify the language syntax though, e.g. make a DSL.
<tane> yeah
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<axiles> especially, unlike templates, functors are not computed at compilation time
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<Drup> huh, they are.
<axiles> for example this compute ackerman(4) with functors and by using Church integers http://pastebin.com/50wEXFV7
<Drup> functors are not turing complete, but they are compile time.
<axiles> it compiles instantly but it takes an enormous time to finish executing
<adrien> I would have simply done it with a side-effect :)
<axiles> adrien: :)
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<dmbaturin> What happens to a list when you traverse it in the canonical tail-recursive way? Does the function just get a pointer to the next item, or it's copied?
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<Drup> axiles: this examples confuses me
<axiles> Drup: you know System F ?
<Drup> sure
<Drup> it's not the encoding that confuses me
<Drup> it's the fact that it's not compile time and reduced to nothing by the compiler
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<adrien> ocaml usually does nothing at compile-time anyway
<Drup> (Gotta admire the cheap polymorphism though, I should remember to use this sometimes)
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<Drup> adrien : well, we agree that functors don't induce any overhead in function calling, right ?
<axiles> Drup: this program compute the ackerman function with functors, if the computation of functors was at compile time, the compilation would take almost forever
<adrien> Drup: they do
<Drup> axiles: I know
<axiles> the question is that: is there an overhead after the module has been computed by the functor ?
<dmbaturin> ...disassembly of a simple example makes me think the list is not copied, but I want someone to confirm it. :)
<adrien> dmbaturin: why would the list be copied?
<Drup> adrien "module F (M : sig val bla : unit -> int end) = struct let blo = bla end", afaik, "F(MyM).blo ()" is the same as MyM.bla ()
<dmbaturin> adrien: I'd expect it not to be copied, but who knows.
<Drup> strictly the same
<Drup> if it's not, well, my whole mental model about functors is wrong :>
<Drup> (not considering first class modules and stuff here)
<adrien> Drup: afaik, functors introduce an overhead
<adrien> but it's an indirection
<adrien> I don't think it changes anything in how they work
<Drup> need dissembling, and not courageous enough to do it.
<adrien> nope
<adrien> you only need to time function calls in a functor and without a functor
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<def`> representation of modules, whether inputed manually or computed through a functor, is the same
<def`> so the code will be the same, and F(MyM).blo === MyM.bla
<def`> this is not exactly true for toplevel-modules in native mode (those are destructured and values are represented by C symbols)
<adrien> hmmm, so no runtime overhead?
<def`> and this is true up-to potential optimisations (inlining, etc)
<def`> adrien: module MyM = … module MyM' = F(MyM), then MyM.bla and MyM'.blo are the same
<ggole> dmbaturin: pattern matching doesn't copy, it just looks at the parts.
<adrien> hmm, ok, had been thinking the opposite for quite some time
<def`> however, in F(MyM).blo there is one more function call (F), but in both case you have a projection
<def`> and dmbaturin: there is no copy in caml, never, ever.
<Drup> def`: well, let's assume NewM= F(MyM)
<Drup> def`: well, in this case
<Drup> def`: https://bpaste.net/show/ff8c3ab09d53 time with MF and with M
<Drup> I have a 2* difference.
<def`> 20:08 < def`> and this is true up-to potential optimisations (inlining, etc)
<def`> you disable inlining in this case :P
<Drup> ah, let's compare with -inline 0
<def`> nop
<Drup> ?
<def`> as far as i can tell, inline 0 was mostly ignored by the compiler =]
<Drup> T_T
<def`> it was an hint to be really light on inlining, not to disable
<def`> with the reason that setting up the stack and calling would be larger than just inlining the code
<Drup> yeah, I've read that already
<Drup> anyway, no way to cheat here to make a ""fair"" comparison ?
<dmbaturin> ggole, def`: Good to know. I have very little idea how it works yet, so I'm trying to find out.
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<def`> Drup: include a reference or maybe string constants in the function
<def`> this should disable the inliner
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<Drup> noep
<Drup> nope*
<Drup> nope for both
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<def`> user 0m3.123s
<def`> user 0m3.123s
<Drup> how did you modify it ?
<def`> in bytecode, it's exactly the same
<def`> (no optimizations in bytecode)
<Drup> Oh, bytecode.
<Drup> huum, obviously
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<Drup> at least, I'm happy that my mental model was indeed the right one
<Drup> (still don't get why Ack is runtime, though)
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<adrien> I remember XL stating there was no way to fully disable inlining by ocamlopt
<adrien> iirc when the function is smaller than doing the call, it's always inlined
<def`> adrien: had a no-op functor :)
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<def`> module Noop (M : sig module type T end) (X : M.T) : M.T = X
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<Drup> I certainly hope the compiler will be sufficiently smart to optimize that at some point :>
<def`> soon, not yet :)
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<chris2> showing the line number of a failed match is new in 4.02?
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<tac_> How do you specify a type signature with a let binding?
<Drup> let f : bla -> blo = fun ...
<Drup> or let f (x:bla) : blo = ...
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<tac_> thanks
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<tac_> hmm. How does the syntax let you nest match expressions?
<tac_> Do you need parentheses?
<tautologico> somtimes
<tautologico> you can use begin match ... end too
<tac_> ahh
<tautologico> I tend to start the nested match in a new line
<tautologico> this usually works without parens or begin .. end
<tac_> I see. And i'm guessing it doesn't work in utop without some fancy directive
<tautologico> it does
<tautologico> well
<tautologico> it works if the nested match is in the last pattern arm :)
<tac_> this is what I tried: http://lpaste.net/2663402197701623808
<tautologico> otherwise the next arm will be interpreted as belonging to the nested match
<tac_> obiously, without the Haskell offsides rule, there's no way I could expect this to work the way I intend it to
<tautologico> yean in this case you have to use ( ) or begin .. end
<tautologico> yes
<Drup> tautologico: starting the match on a new line doesn't change anything
<tac_> Would you mind annotating it to show me how begin end would look?
<tautologico> yeah I realized that
<tautologico> I was confused
<tautologico> It works if the nested match is last, but anyway not a good practice
<Drup> tac_: just wrap the match and all the cases in a begin/end
<tautologico> because if you have to change the match later it can get you into trouble
<Drup> begin/end is the same as ( ) anway
<tautologico> or define let maybe_hd l = match l with [] -> None | x :: _ -> Some x
<tautologico> for the first case at least
<tautologico> or start matching against the list instead of n
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<tautologico> let rec at l n = match l with [] -> None | x :: l' -> if n = 0 then Some x else at l' (n-1)
<tac_> ahh
<tac_> so begin and end literally work the same way as ( and )
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<tautologico> you realize in OCaml is not idiomatic to write types in function definitions, right?
<Drup> yes
<tautologico> exactly the same thing
<tautologico> and it's the recommended style for control structures
<tac_> I suppose with the modules, it's not as bad as it is in haskell
<Drup> tac_: signatures are usually put in .mli
<tac_> but I don't care for what Hindley Milner does to a language
<tac_> right
<Drup> and inference is bad in haskell because of type classes, not because of HM :)
<tautologico> for any nontrivial program you will use the module system anyways
<tautologico> type classes and the thousands of GHC extensions
<tautologico> type inference in ML languages works quite well
<Drup> (well, bad is not the right word, but let's say non-optimal)
<tac_> Drup: classes definitely make life pretty unreasonable when you have to do prolog in addition to H-M
<tac_> :)
<tac_> I just prefer to force all top-level bindings to have an explicit annotation
<tac_> Which the .mli does, but the .mli puts it somewhere else.
<tac_> not right before the definition.
<Drup> yes
<Drup> also, the purpose of mli is not to force the type of a definition
<Drup> it's to expose an interface
<tautologico> yes
<tac_> yeah
<Drup> (and check that the implementation match the interface)
<tautologico> but I'll start reading code by the mli's anyway, not straight to the implementation
<Drup> same
<tautologico> you can use tool support to see the types if you're reading the ml
<tac_> yeah
<Drup> I'm always a bit lost in haskell (and rust) libraries because of that :/
<tac_> I don't know how the tool support is in Ocaml, but in Haskell, the situation is much worse than it should be.
<tac_> If your code doesn't compile, you can't get the type information
<Drup> tac_: merlin :]
<tac_> and often the reason your code doesn't compile is because you messed up a type somewhere, and you NEED that information :P
<tac_> but I'll keep that in mind that it's not idiomatic
<dmbaturin> tac_: You also can specify the signature as "let foo : int -> int = fun x -> x + 1" which is hardly better. :)
<tac_> right
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<Drup> whitequark, jpdeplaix: which debian/ubuntu package do I need to be able to use the opam llvm package ?
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<whitequark> llvm-$VERSION-dev
<Drup> does the opam package check the version or something ?
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<whitequark> I think it will fail at configure
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<whitequark> well, or at build step
<whitequark> not really much of a difference :]
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<Drup> whitequark: an advice to be able to do this nicely under travis-I-don't-even-know-which-outdated-version-of-ubuntu-I'm-using ?
<whitequark> uhhh what are you trying to do?
<Drup> setting up travis for llvmgraph
<whitequark> llvm package should have a corresponding depext
<whitequark> so ask opam for depexts
<Drup> it will pick up the correct version ?
<whitequark> $ opam install llvm -e debian,x86
<whitequark> llvm-3.5-dev
<whitequark> it will pick up the one that is necessary for the selected llvm package version without any consideration whatsoever to the platform's package manager
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<jpdeplaix> Drup: it fails with llvm 3.5 :/
<jpdeplaix> I don't know why
<jpdeplaix> (with travis only)
<tac_> Does Ocaml have any notion of a tail call "underneath" a constructor?
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<Drup> jpdeplaix: well, probably because 3.5 is not packaged on ubuntu ...
<Drup> tac_: no
* tac_ is struck with this curiosity watching the 1986 SICP lectures.
<Drup> tac_: not yet, to be precise, some people want it
<jpdeplaix> (or more precisely, with ubuntu precise only)
<jpdeplaix> Drup: I use the llvm ubuntu repository
<tac_> I'm happy to hear that I noticed something other people have also noticed :)
<jpdeplaix> Drup: http://llvm.org/apt/
<Drup> ah !
<tac_> It seems it would be better for writing functions which are structurally recursive
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<Drup> jpdeplaix: do you have a nice travis script ready to go for me ? :]
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<jpdeplaix> I'm going to sleep
<jpdeplaix> \o
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<Drup> grm, it doesn't work, and I spent too much time on something that was supposed to be simple and automatic
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<whitequark> travis can take a while to set up.
<whitequark> I suggest using Ubuntu's system compiler and llvm-ocaml-dev package
<whitequark> thanks to Sylvestre it works great.
<Drup> well, I was going to test multiple ocaml compilers
<whitequark> ah
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<Drup> well, tomorrow.
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