<wpwrak>
rjeffries: so if they truly enforce it, it would be bad if two idential-looking parcels would show up in front of the same customs official within minutes of each other
<rjeffries>
I understand real estate in Libia is VERY reasonable now.
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: remember, this is copyleft hardware, we very much try to create income opportunities everywhere, equally. So referring to a 'we make all this in China anyway' is not what most of us are after, actually.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yeah. the problem are multiple shipments. there seems to be a silly restriction that you can't send more than one shipment per month and person
<rjeffries>
wpwrak in any case these protos will never need to be shipped in volume because wolfspraul plans to manufacture i assume
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul no idea re resouces ysage of ROS I'll poke around
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: do you have any idea about resource requirements?
<rjeffries>
wplfspraul thanks (re ROS it does look cool)
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries: nice ROS link - thank you! never heard of that before...
<rjeffries>
have you used their web interface
<rjeffries>
4pcb will be worth a try yes
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: but you're right, the rock bottom ones, batchpcb and such, wouldn't know what to do with a thin board
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I have assumed teh cheapie fab houses can not do the thin fiberglass UBB requires
<rjeffries>
but after I shut down this snipe hunt I can try
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: also, i believe you can get a much lower price also in the US. unless there's some magic feature that makes producing this board expensive and that the others have overlooked so far, tuxbrain's price point would seem feasible also in the us, e.g., at 4pcb.com
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: whether there _is_ a magic problem feature or not, we'll see in a week :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: in about a week we should know how things went in spain. i think it's neither inaproppriate nor impolite for you to mention in further conversation with paula that you know of a considerably less expensive quote that a company in spain is using. this does not imply that you weren't serious or anything. after all, if you had been able to obtain a lower price, maybe you would have tried to compete in the future (with a few ifs
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (quote) that shop seems hopeless. that's then for an even simpler variant than what tuxbrain is getting
2011-02-25
<rjeffries>
kristianpaul great xkcd link! too funny
<rjeffries>
ipv6 has longer addresses than V4 and a bunch of otehr stuff. 6LoWpan looks like it will be widely deployed for device networks
<rjeffries>
avahi does look interesting kristianpaul
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i don't know yet if 6LoWPAN provides for direct peer to peer communication. probably yes, or if not yet, then it would at least leave the option for it open.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: right now, there are still much bigger holes to fix, such as proper TCP support
<rjeffries>
rf is by it's natyre a broadcast media so I guess the two parties transmit their unique ID (tbd) and tehn  can establish a connection that is semi encrypted
<rjeffries>
i watched with amusement as wolfspraul gave you long distance counselling
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: what does "talk" mean ? ping ? IRC ? ronchat ? email ? skype ?
<rjeffries>
ronchat would work. l)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i'm readying the prototypes for shipping. now the issue is how to get them to the various recipients. i investigated a bit today but didn't find what i was looking for. to be continued on monday.
<rjeffries>
and wpwrak Ben wants to talk to krustianpaul Ben how do you know what to do
<rjeffries>
I am mot jerking your chain, asking about an obvious early use case
<rjeffries>
it begs the question, when atBen shios and we have the fist Glbal Ben Conference
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: typically, they would go via a common server. but that's mainly determined by the application. if you had something that goes peer-to-peer, then you could also use that.
<rjeffries>
how deso one atBen find the other atBen
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: but if you consider things like IRC or such, they're all server-oriented
<rjeffries>
how will two arBens communicate to each other when rere are three or more atBens within the radio range
<rjeffries>
atBens sorry
<rjeffries>
this is so simple
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: again, still mainly a research topic, although there are some applications, mainly military
<rjeffries>
I come from a networking background. thanks
<rjeffries>
I will ask a different question
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i think what you have in mind is a network with mobile/variable infrastructure. that would  be below IP.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (and tightly integrated niche applications, things like iptv over catv)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i know what multicast can do ;-) it's just that nobody seriously uses it, except for certain infrastructure services.
<rjeffries>
multicats transmission from the directory node would go to all Bens in shouting distance so they know where the directory is located (IP address)
<rjeffries>
to have a sort of "directory" where one can find address for other Ben atBen users
<rjeffries>
in a conference situation with say 10 Ben NN freaks in attendace, I assume at a minimu sombody needs
<rjeffries>
let me state the problem differently
<rjeffries>
wpwrak ok (but Mcast used all the time in Etherent world)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (multicast) uh, nobody uses multicast (unless you're a router or working towards a PhD)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (linux-to-linux) in what way is the ben different from "another linux box" ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: there's no proper driver yet. just some test tools. but yes, there will be a low-level driver for the IEEE 802.15.4 stack and then 6LoWPAN on top
<rjeffries>
it is a multicast type of application
<rjeffries>
on a serious note, in the TBD category, wpwrak has yet to disclose how a few atBENs in a conference rool might talk to each other
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away unlike you, my friend, I do not syffer from a migrain today. ;)
<rjeffries>
is it valid to think about one linux box talking to another linux box (not Ben) over a pair of atUSBs? seels like that would work??
<rjeffries>
wpwrak driver on Linux for atUSB is your implementation of 6LoWPAN correct?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: atmega32u2. no, as few as possible. the board is already crowded enough as it as. you have three signals you can reuse without any difficulties. one more if you're willing to lose reset (you could still load firmware over usb). if you redesign, you could pick a different avr and put ios instead of usb. should give you room for quite a lot of contacts
<rjeffries>
wpwrak remind me shich avr chip you used? did you bring most  of the signals out or...
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: after all, if i can make such devices at home, others can, too ;-)
<rjeffries>
interesting idea! 13:50 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it
<rjeffries>
thanks Jay7
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it directly, three of the programming pins work both ways (and you could even reuse reset if you dare)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak the most inteeresting (missing) data point would be is wolfsprail would use my fab spec and get quote in China
<rjeffries>
that will set the bar
<rjeffries>
anyway I have learned a lot so far. assuming I back away (as makes sense) I should not wear out Paula or she will never respond for future quotes ;)
<rjeffries>
4) I am not a reseller of Ben Nanonote
<rjeffries>
2) the demand for UBB will take some time to build
<rjeffries>
3) if UBB was significant Adam and Wolfspraul can do it cheapest of all
<rjeffries>
1) Tuxbrain_away has corned the GLOBAL market for UBBs ;)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak understood. however since on  UBB it is now very unlikley that I will proceed for a few reasons:
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: in general, you could offer a bit more information. e.g., in this case, that you already know of a similar order in spain that was _much_ cheaper (although with tin-plating instead of ENIG, and we don't know the outcome yet). that would set the expectations. otherwise, you may get a slightly reduced offer, and have to "haggle" things down.
<rjeffries>
I think thAT QUESTION IS IMPLIED she is a sales person after all
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: 3) would there be a place that can do it at a lower cost ? :)
<rjeffries>
shall I resenf
<rjeffries>
you are tough to track
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: ah, werner@openmoko.org works again. better to use that one.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak You have mail
<rjeffries>
on the quoute from spain was that a 2-sided board?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: playing games you learn for the real hunt
<rjeffries>
but... this is very likely a game,,, with no order from me forthcoming
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yeah, competition is good. the invisible hand of the market ;-)
<rjeffries>
also remember I have anotrher guy waiting to bid.
<rjeffries>
okI'll continue the dialog
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: hmm, may be better to ask what it would take to bring the cost down. also, that fab may not be the best place for a low price at such quantities. their typical range may be well below 100.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: also, when you visit their web site, their list of equipment doesn't mention a laser cutter. but that's okay. if they have a mill that can do it, that's just as good.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I did ask her if the quote reflected all conditions of fab spec. was worried they had shined on the laser cutting
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: we still don't know how good/bad his UBBs will be. yours could be plan B
<rjeffries>
well, in any case it will not make sense to buy fabs, since tuxbrain_away tuxbrain has a firm order in process
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: don't want to try to see if this can be improved ?
<rjeffries>
s/brudges/bridges
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I think I let the fab quote die, thinking about the "why" do not wish to burn brudges for next time
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: yup
<rjeffries>
wpwrak are you here
<rjeffries>
wolfspraul ?
2011-02-24
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: let's hope the next prop moves more quickly than psoc3/5. those could also be also quite interesting chips, but they're taking forever for materialize beyond samples
<rjeffries>
cia
<rjeffries>
ciao
<rjeffries>
larsc however at a VERY different price point;) and prop is very i/o friendly
<rjeffries>
agree they have one brilliant genius level guy and he does any damn thing he want to
<rjeffries>
prop is coming along. the next version should be interesting if they get it done.
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: do they have a decent C compiler yet ? (i haven't followed the prop for some years)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: for me, that's basically a case of a great engineer who has lost it :-(
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i'm not sure they'll ever make it beyond "interesting". in my opinion, they're way too niche-happy. e.g., that whole thing about their own programming language and the self-contained development environment. pure insanity.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak propeller is interesting. wonder when they will finally release the ver 2 of that co[
<rjeffries>
nods
<larsc>
rjeffries: computer science
<rjeffries>
larsc what is your academic specialty
<rjeffries>
what fun would it be if things Just Worked??
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (find out) i.e., ask the fab if there's anything they could suggest to lower the price
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: so the next step would be to find out what makes it so expensive. one thing you could try is to get a proper quote from 4pcb.com. that would give you a price point for comparison.
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_: yes you can rebuild the fucking concorde and take an UBB bag with that prices...
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: can you resend me the rjeffries_quotation?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (that is, unless the fab just ignored it :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (gold) when i get a rough estimate at the online quoting of 4pcb.com, tin and ENIG were the same price. your specification has a thick ENIG layer, which may drive up cost.
<rjeffries_>
ciao
<rjeffries_>
David how will your pcb fab finish the board edges did they agree to laser cut?
<rjeffries_>
I think the gold layer is not expensive
<rjeffries_>
I am llearning as I work through this process
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: no, they don't have ENIG. i don't know if that would have made them more expensive.
<rjeffries_>
David I think your quoute says single sided am I wrong?
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak but will David's boards have immersion gold surface? ;)
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away I resent
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (spain) let's just say that, for the 500 unit cost in your quote, you could afford a biz-class flight to barcelona, spend a week there (it's a nice city), get the boards made locally, and still have some change left ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (unit cost) that's also why i find it rather amusing how people are trying to break down the packages tuxbrain sells. i don't think they realize that this is one of those cases where the slogan "the more you buy the more you save" is almost true also in total numbers :)
<rjeffries_>
tuxbarin really? I thought when I forwraded the attachments went along
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I will soon be a mexican subject. the drug loards will occupy California
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_: yo have mail
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_: use the google Luck!
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (spanish) i thought you lived in northern mexico ? (-:C
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (straight line) the inclination is something like 16 euro-cents per unit ;-) not sure if this straight line is an appropriate approximation for the true unit cost, though, but it's interesting nevertheless
<rjeffries_>
and the wholemEuro currency is so scary and Un-American. //xsmile//
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak please NO I do not read Spanish;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: (10k) hmm ? i only see it go to 2k
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I need another cup of coffee you are correct
<rjeffries_>
I also want to knowm what size panel they used, if it only fits qty 100 UBB that is rather small
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak agree n sterngths and weaknesses of wili format
<rjeffries_>
e.g. UBB atben atusb (what else is there, so far?)
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I wonder if there would be economies if one panelized more than one design on same panel]
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: one of the fundamental problems of a wiki like the qi-hw wiki is that there's no editorial oversight. so things tend to get chaotic. a typical condition is that there are a small number of pages regularly maintained by some individuals, many dead pages, only limited connectivity among all this, and no up to date index.
<rjeffries_>
it was pretty cheap at 10K qty. ;)
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I have only seen the USA quute so please share your thoughts ;)
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away when  you sell a Ben what instructions do you include with the product
<rjeffries_>
I want to know if they would llaser cut or mill (curioisty)
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak I thought the setup charge was way way low
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away you have mail
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: got the mail, thanks ! the per unit price is very high. almost ten times what tuxbrain got, at 500 units. setup cost is lower, though.
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_: yes I would like to see that quoting :)
<rjeffries_>
where wolfspraul has to add factories all working 7x365 no holidays
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak then we get to the long-awaited OMG model
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away would you like to see the quoute? it is not secret.
<tuxbrain_away>
how many do you inquiry rjeffries_?
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak you have mail
<rjeffries_>
the UBB fingers only
<rjeffries_>
this PCB house suggested ummersion gold treatment of entire surface at no extra cost vs gold on
<rjeffries_>
tuxbarin_away I mean I cAN NOT TELL HOW THE STWO QUOTES COMAPRE e.g. at different volume levels
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away I do not understand your question sir
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_says "I do not have a good sense of how this quote compares to what tuxbrain_away got"
<rjeffries_>
I am stuck so far down in the weeds now with the olkder image that it is best to let Ben sit there and get a really good charge. ;)
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries_: why you don't have good sense?
<rjeffries_>
wolfspraul I wait until the current testing image gets polished a bit more then I can give it a fair try
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: thanks !
<wolfspraul>
rjeffries_: hard to say, there are good pages all over the wiki.
<rjeffries_>
I do not have a good sense of how this quote compares to what tuxbrain_away got
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak will send to that email no problemo
<rjeffries_>
wolfspraul where on qi site do you tell new Ben owners to go for info on how to use Ben?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: great ! what's the next step ? will you try to modify it for better pricing or such ? or just let it rest for now ? if you could forward the quote to werner@almesberger.net, that would be great. (that one gets lots of spam but it usually doens't fail at the same time openmoko.org does ;-)
<rjeffries_>
good point tuxbrain_away
<wpwrak>
rjeffries_: my mail is down at the moment. there are no news on the UBB quote yet, are there ?
<rjeffries_>
wpwrak we got quoute back last night similar to what was expected
<rjeffries_>
tuxbrain_away or name could be OO or oh-oh
<rjeffries_>
I asked lekernal a few days ago his POV is that memory card that allows removal creates many tough s/w problems
<rjeffries_>
MM having an RF link would provide real value add
2011-02-23
<rjeffries>
maybe I can contribute a list of all combinations ofalt func shift tab esc f1-f8 yada yadda
<rjeffries>
a PhD in Ben Keyology.
<rjeffries>
and kyak I will do some further study on the deep subject of the tab key.
<rjeffries>
as I said earlier I will reflash once the new image is buffed out
<zrafa>
rjeffries: you are luck you do not have the first version with that menu.. there were cripted keys to do things. So you should say thanks nowadays.. ANd it would be a good idea if you install latest qi-openwrt as well. You would find more support.
<rjeffries>
e
<rjeffries>
the only other icons are fordgclock gmu nanomap srardict explorer
<rjeffries>
no icon for e.g. terminal ot shell
<rjeffries>
by the way tab switchyes between applications and settings that is iy
<rjeffries>
how wouldI know to "master" the tab key?
<zrafa>
rjeffries: that is intuitive .. you need to press all the keys for all the functions every time you need to do something :)
<rjeffries>
i'll get my camera nd apolgies for the un needed profanity
<rjeffries>
god damnb ity there IS NO ICOBN ok
<rjeffries>
it is not on my damn screen
<rjeffries>
I can shoot a photo of screen.'_
<rjeffries>
on openwrt that is on my Ben        the graphical launcher does NOTR show a way to get into a terminal, period
<rjeffries>
I acknowledge this is an older (Oct 2010) release so it may be brojken
<kyak>
rjeffries: i'm not talking about setfont. I'm talking about getting to shell/terminal.
<zrafa>
rjeffries: you can install jlime on a sd as well. and you can have both openwrt on nand and jlime on sd
<rjeffries>
if i replash I may as well get teh other stuff I want also to play certain types of music files
<rjeffries>
rjeffries rather
<rjeffries>
I thought the qi-hardware versionb had stuff ripped out
<rjeffries>
if that is noy OK in this irc email me rjegffries@gmail.com
<rjeffries>
point me to a URL and I can reflash with Jlime I am not an OpenWrt Taliban
<rjeffries>
that is a usability issue, now a low IQ or linux knowledge issue. <g>
<rjeffries>
kyak I appreciate your comment, but it makes me smile. I can issue a setfont command, but need to get into a shellk forst and it is not clear
<rjeffries>
I have used linux for years on desktops never had to set a font;)
<rjeffries>
and besides the fitsy screen on my Ben does not have a terminal option. like I said it is a bit screwed up
<rjeffries>
it may be best to just wait for the new image xiangful & co are polishing now
<rjeffries>
in the image I have it is not clear how I get into a shell or a terminal app
<rjeffries>
this Ben has an October build on it that is  semi-fubar
<rjeffries>
when the image being tested goes gold I will reflash and see waht I can do
<rjeffries>
my eyes are not great I need a bit larger font
<rjeffries>
does the new release being tested now for BEN include an easy way to change font (font size) in a terminal for example
<rjeffries>
the latest OLPC is mildly interesting. good price, interesting display (and other things) control chip with open source drivers (as I understand things)
<rjeffries>
thanks
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: second, those critters also need quite a bit of attention from the engineering side or you get flicker or suspend/resume problems
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: (display) not sure. the display controllers are a somewhat murky territory
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: first of all, it's often hard to find documentation. so you have to include this in the sourcing decision.
<rjeffries>
what wi=ould be involved wuth interfacing to a different display? Wolfspraul mentions oncce that the driver for current disolay is key technology
<rjeffries>
wpwrak a curiosity question. ignoring the current Ben plastic case... (assume it would be replace dby something simpler and not as comsumer flashy..)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak as to SOC I actually meant the slighly different model you like, not the fancy one that has a lot more changes
<rjeffries>
okwell i guess that Ben NN is what it is. soon will have a few cool plug in accessories to8:10
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: of course, if sufficient resources are available, ... :)
<rjeffries>
doing a follow-on with same (exact) SOC makes no sense to me
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: the problem is that a more recent soc would need a lot of development effort. larsc said that the "next generation" chips is very different from the older series.
<rjeffries>
inside the Ben case (assuming no change to plastic) a more recent Ingenic SOC + more RAM baklight for keybaord would significantly improve useability
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: easy changes, towards freedom, triying to no increase much the tech risk
<rjeffries>
s/for/no
<rjeffries>
wpwrak please expand on "purely incrmental" I think that means for change to palastic case?
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: schematics (these are almost there, except that the ones we have are not the "real" schematics"), layout, and case design.
<rjeffries>
wpwrak what of ben core design do you mean? the palstic case?
<rjeffries>
like tuxbrain_away said !!!
<rjeffries>
I know a creative engineer, I think he wrks in Arginnina, nost sure
<rjeffries>
however I also now better understand why wolfspraul constantly talks about need to make Ben NN software work better and have smoother operation
<rjeffries>
zafra yes  after seeing JeeLabs stuff and reading about 802.15.4 my gut says NN could have a future as a small portable cheap controller
<zrafa>
rjeffries: ah.. you mean the solution
<zrafa>
rjeffries: what is gospel?
<tuxbrain_away>
rjeffries: and we have listent to you , but time to time dude :)
<rjeffries>
zafra I have been preaching that gospel for a few months now
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away I agree that Werners 802.15.4 radio addon for Ben is imoortant
<rjeffries>
Fusin nothin firm in terms of new model of Ben
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain_away how much have you used Spectec wifi on ben
<rjeffries>
or is that "curb your enthusiasm?) (TV show)
<rjeffries>
wpwrak control your enthusiasm. ;)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: RFQ looks good. let's see what crawls out of it :)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: after the "nanowar" edition, he can then make the "forefather" version ;-)
<rjeffries>
I need to send a photo. Maybe tuxbrain will put logo on this handsome magnifier and sell it in his shop
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: would you like a walking stick with this ? ;-)
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: cost could be an issue, yes. not for the memory size per se but for the industry moving to DDR, so the old SDR stays at a higher price point
<rjeffries>
I have an exciting new Ben accessory: a magnifing glass
<rjeffries>
not sure more thasn 64MB will be prsctical on Ben due to cost
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: you mean you'd want more the 64 MB ?
<rjeffries>
wpwrak it is also not at all clear that 64MB would be the right bump. Ben has ok CPU power, is RAM starved
<rjeffries>
wpwrak I had EXITED nano. nothing was going on, so maybe this particular Ben is ill I dunno
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: i haven't read many disagreeing voices in the last year or so :)
<rjeffries>
so it urns out that SoB (son of Ben) having more RAM might be A Good THing
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: just a nano shouldn't be a problem. well, unless you're editing a really big file :-)
<rjeffries>
maybe there is some other issue i dunno
<rjeffries>
well the Ben choked when the only thing I had done was open nano editor then close it
<wpwrak>
rjeffries: this change is lost when you (re)boot, yes
<rjeffries>
rjeffries: did you    echo 1  >/proc/sys/vm/overcommit_memory    ?
<rjeffries>
is this required every time Ben is powerd on?