2016-05-09 01:27 <whitequark> how is that relevant for OO?
2016-05-09 01:28 <whitequark> s/relevant/specific/
2016-05-09 01:28 <qi-bot> whitequark meant: "how is that specific for OO?"
2016-05-09 01:28 <whitequark> for that matter, the problem with solvespace codebase is that it's full of C-style shit. global variables all over the place.
2016-05-09 01:29 <whitequark> if you want to make smug remarks about something you don't understand, take some time to learn what it is, first
2016-05-09 02:22 <wpwrak> ran out of aggression control pills ? :) that was just a remark on the expression "refactoring" having appeared with OO. before you called it "clean up" or such. "refactoring" sounds so much more professional ;-)
2016-05-09 02:30 * whitequark shrugs
2016-05-09 02:33 <whitequark> anyway, the reason it's hard to fix is that... it's easy to introduce a single table with global parameters
2016-05-09 02:33 <whitequark> but that's not very useful, because what you really want is to choose a row from that table when you import a sketch, right?
2016-05-09 02:33 <whitequark> like to have a single screw-Mn.slvs with variable n
2016-05-09 02:34 <whitequark> and solvespace right now has just a single global sketch, and a bunch of other things that make it all but impossible to solve one sketch while having another open
2016-05-09 02:34 <whitequark> everything is coupled, sketches don't exist in separation from UI, all the minute stuff lives in globals
2016-05-09 02:34 <whitequark> fixing this is pretty much the next few months work on solvespace.
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2016-05-09 03:29 <wpwrak> in fped, all you see are "instances". when you click on something, you click on the instance. but what you actually edit is the object. that works pretty smoothly, even if it may sound weird.
2016-05-09 03:30 <wpwrak> not sure if there's some idea worth stealing for solvespace in there, though
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2016-05-09 03:31 <whitequark> so you have an "object" with a dimension say of "a"
2016-05-09 03:31 <whitequark> and an "instance" of the "object" with a=10?
2016-05-09 03:31 <whitequark> right?
2016-05-09 03:32 <wpwrak> (for SS) i guess you could have "master" sketches with parameters and then subordinate sketches with the parameters filled in according to tables or such. the subordinates would be read-only.
2016-05-09 03:32 <wpwrak> yes, in fact, the instance doens't know there's an "a". it just sees the resulting value. ("a" could be any expression)
2016-05-09 03:32 <whitequark> yep
2016-05-09 03:32 <whitequark> solvespace actually has half of the infra for that. its symbolic algebra system can handle it
2016-05-09 03:34 <whitequark> the problem is that there's only one sketch and it's global and most of the functions to do anything with it refer to that global
2016-05-09 03:34 <whitequark> so... within a single process, only one sketch exists
2016-05-09 03:35 <wpwrak> ah, so also the groups are part of that one global sketch ?
2016-05-09 03:35 <whitequark> yep
2016-05-09 03:36 <whitequark> when you import another sketch there's a hack
2016-05-09 03:36 <whitequark> it's not actually loaded, rather, when you save a sketch, the geometry is saved alongside it
2016-05-09 03:36 <whitequark> and when you import it, it's not re-solved, the saved geometry is imported in one piece
2016-05-09 03:36 <whitequark> as well as some entities (circles, points, etc; everything with parameters)
2016-05-09 03:37 <whitequark> so it's completely impossible to e.g. import a sketch but with a parameter changed
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2016-05-09 03:47 <wpwrak> i guess something similar to what i go in fped would work there, too. if a sketch uses parameters from a table, you treat it as "object" and only show the "instances".
2016-05-09 03:50 <wpwrak> you'd also want a means to have a hierarchy of such tables. so that you can, say, have one set of iterations for dice, and one for their faces
2016-05-09 03:50 <whitequark> it's not about treating it from an object
2016-05-09 03:50 <whitequark> it's about not being able to ever have more than once instance in a process
2016-05-09 03:50 <whitequark> treating it as an object*
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2016-05-09 03:54 <whitequark> as for hierarchy, yes, that's also planned
2016-05-09 03:55 <whitequark> same problem: need more than one sketch loaded
2016-05-09 03:56 <whitequark> and a second problem is that the file format is naive and has no nesting
2016-05-09 03:56 <whitequark> also, very inefficient
2016-05-09 03:57 <whitequark> I think I'll replace it with a zip archive with bitcode (LLVM's format) files inside, one per sketch
2016-05-09 03:58 <whitequark> this way, it's easy to exchange (just one file!), easy to read (works with any archiver), and easy to put in VCS if you ever need that (just unpack it)
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2016-05-09 04:00 <whitequark> so solvespace would just treat the zip archive as a "folder" and existing logic for relative paths being recorded inside sketch files would apply
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2016-05-09 09:14 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: well, that's what .odc does, no?
2016-05-09 09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> err .odf
2016-05-09 09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> aka openoffice
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2016-05-09 09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> can't be wrong :-)
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2016-05-09 09:18 <whitequark> yes
2016-05-09 09:18 <whitequark> also sigrok and a number of other software
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2016-05-09 09:28 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I think .deb 'invented' it?
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2016-05-09 09:29 <DocScrutinizer05> or is the concept even older?
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2016-05-09 09:32 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flashing-cmdline
2016-05-09 09:32 <DocScrutinizer05> ~#maemo flashing-cmdline
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2016-05-09 09:34 <DocScrutinizer05> just for a faintly related example how useful the archives are
2016-05-09 09:35 infobot has joined #qi-hardware
2016-05-09 09:35 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flashing-cmdline
2016-05-09 09:35 <infobot> [flashing-cmdline] http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2016-04-09.log.html#t2016-04-09T01:18:12
2016-05-09 09:36 <DocScrutinizer05> alas it'salso still exploited for a lot of malware spam
2016-05-09 09:39 * DocScrutinizer05 tries to catch upwith backlog
2016-05-09 09:48 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: c&p oneliner for noobs to get solvespace?
2016-05-09 09:49 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly starting with "git create" or whatever
2016-05-09 09:49 <DocScrutinizer05> or even "mkdir"
2016-05-09 09:51 <whitequark> https://github.com/whitequark/solvespace#building-for-linux
2016-05-09 09:51 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
2016-05-09 09:51 <whitequark> assumes you already git cloned it
2016-05-09 09:51 <whitequark> for 'noobs' i guess the easiest way is to get a package tho
2016-05-09 09:52 <whitequark> https://github.com/whitequark/solvespace/releases/download/nightly.2016-05-07/solvespace_2.1_amd64.deb
2016-05-09 09:52 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, k. maybe I find a way to handle this .deb on my RPM system
2016-05-09 09:53 <whitequark> hm I thought y ou had a adebian-based system
2016-05-09 09:53 <DocScrutinizer05> nope
2016-05-09 09:53 <whitequark> I don't have any easy instruction for rpm systems
2016-05-09 10:03 fengling__ is now known as fengling
2016-05-09 10:05 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf? sh: rpmbuild: command not found
2016-05-09 10:06 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/91443329  now let's see
2016-05-09 10:09 <DocScrutinizer05> T (me does a sign with both hands):  http://paste.opensuse.org/72872722
2016-05-09 10:10 <whitequark> thats completely unsurprising
2016-05-09 10:10 <whitequark> wait
2016-05-09 10:10 <whitequark> you don't need the -dev packages for the binary package
2016-05-09 10:12 <whitequark> in all likelihood you only need to install libgtkmm-2.4 libpangomm-1.4 libjson-c libspnav
2016-05-09 10:12 <whitequark> everything else is pulled in by these
2016-05-09 10:15 <DocScrutinizer05> https://software.opensuse.org/search?q=libgtkmm-2.4  I pass
2016-05-09 10:16 <DocScrutinizer05> wait
2016-05-09 10:16 <DocScrutinizer05> https://software.opensuse.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=libgtkmm
2016-05-09 10:17 <DocScrutinizer05> https://software.opensuse.org/package/libgtkmm-2_4-1
2016-05-09 10:17 <whitequark> yea thats right
2016-05-09 10:18 <whitequark> https://software.opensuse.org/package/libpangomm-1_4-1
2016-05-09 10:19 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/76200840
2016-05-09 10:20 <DocScrutinizer05> zypper in libpangomm-1_4-1  -> Nothing to do.
2016-05-09 10:20 <DocScrutinizer05> you'll have decent install instructions for RPM based systems in a few minutes, eh? ;-)
2016-05-09 10:20 <whitequark> well ideally i would build rpms
2016-05-09 10:20 <whitequark> thatd cover most distros anywhere
2016-05-09 10:21 <DocScrutinizer05> now back to the roots:  Problem: nothing provides libGLEW.so.1.10()(64bit) needed by solvespace-2.1-2.x86_64
2016-05-09 10:22 <whitequark> oh right also glew
2016-05-09 10:22 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/14919743
2016-05-09 10:22 <whitequark> yeah you need 1_10
2016-05-09 10:24 <DocScrutinizer05> WAAAH!  http://wstaw.org/m/2016/05/09/plasma-desktoprT2219.png
2016-05-09 10:25 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, not going to install OO5
2016-05-09 10:26 <whitequark> what
2016-05-09 10:26 <whitequark> oh, only OO5 includes that
2016-05-09 10:26 <whitequark> ok. then your only choice is to build from source
2016-05-09 10:26 <DocScrutinizer05> nevermind
2016-05-09 10:27 <whitequark> hmm?
2016-05-09 10:27 * DocScrutinizer05 should rather head out and have a 3 beers and a long scooter, not necessarily in that sequence
2016-05-09 10:27 <DocScrutinizer05> scooter ride*
2016-05-09 10:28 <whitequark> ah well
2016-05-09 10:28 <DocScrutinizer05> I bet any git checkout of solvespace wouldn't include the libGLEW either
2016-05-09 10:29 <whitequark> it won't, libglew is an external library
2016-05-09 10:29 <whitequark> but it will build with libglew1_9
2016-05-09 10:29 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2016-05-09 10:29 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh
2016-05-09 10:29 <whitequark> it just doesn't work with an existing binary lib
2016-05-09 10:29 <whitequark> because it changed the ABI. the API is the same though
2016-05-09 10:29 <DocScrutinizer05> so we're back to square one ;-)
2016-05-09 10:30 <DocScrutinizer05> >>[2016-05-09 Mon 11:51:36] <whitequark> assumes you already git cloned it<<
2016-05-09 10:30 <DocScrutinizer05> which is a pretty optimistic assumption
2016-05-09 10:31 <DocScrutinizer05> git noob^hhater here
2016-05-09 10:32 <whitequark> you actually need git and not a tarball because there's a lib included as a submodule
2016-05-09 10:32 <DocScrutinizer05> fine with that, just NFC how to do
2016-05-09 10:32 <DocScrutinizer05> never touched git except via c&p of cmdlines
2016-05-09 10:32 <whitequark> $ git clone http://github.com/whitequark/solvespace
2016-05-09 10:33 <DocScrutinizer05> mkdir first maybe?
2016-05-09 10:33 <whitequark> it will create a `solvespace` directory
2016-05-09 10:33 <DocScrutinizer05> ok
2016-05-09 10:33 <whitequark> then cd solvespace
2016-05-09 10:33 <whitequark> then follow https://github.com/whitequark/solvespace#building-for-linux exactly except for apt-get command
2016-05-09 10:33 <whitequark> i'm not sure where opensuse places developer files
2016-05-09 10:34 <whitequark> maybe in the gtkmm package?
2016-05-09 10:34 <whitequark> well, developer files for gtkmm live in the gtkmm pakcage itself
2016-05-09 10:35 <DocScrutinizer05> so good so far http://paste.opensuse.org/32644947
2016-05-09 10:37 <DocScrutinizer05> BWAHAHA      CMake 3.1.0 or higher is required.  You are running version 2.8.11.2
2016-05-09 10:38 <whitequark> https://software.opensuse.org/package/cmake
2016-05-09 10:38 <whitequark> says 3.3.2 here
2016-05-09 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> 3.5 even
2016-05-09 10:42 <DocScrutinizer05> --   No package 'json-c' found
2016-05-09 10:42 <DocScrutinizer05> I can do that :-)
2016-05-09 10:43 <whitequark> libjson-c
2016-05-09 10:43 <whitequark> maybe even libjson-c2
2016-05-09 10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> which one? got both
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2016-05-09 10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> err nope, sorry
2016-05-09 10:45 <DocScrutinizer05> grr needs -devel too?
2016-05-09 10:46 <whitequark> oh it's -devel
2016-05-09 10:46 <whitequark> yes, then you need all of those -devel
2016-05-09 10:46 <DocScrutinizer05> --   No package 'glew' found
2016-05-09 10:47 <whitequark> https://software.opensuse.org/package/libGLEW1_13
2016-05-09 10:47 <DocScrutinizer05> gnagnagna
2016-05-09 10:47 <DocScrutinizer05> --   No package 'gtkmm-2.4' found
2016-05-09 10:48 <DocScrutinizer05> --   No package 'pangomm-1.4' found
2016-05-09 10:48 <whitequark> libgtkmm... etc
2016-05-09 10:49 <whitequark> https://software.opensuse.org/package/libgtkmm-2_4-1 https://software.opensuse.org/package/libpangomm-1_4-1
2016-05-09 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/33134569
2016-05-09 10:50 <DocScrutinizer05> -- Build files have been written to: /home/jr/neo900git/solvespace/build
2016-05-09 10:50 <whitequark> \o/
2016-05-09 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> -Wall is a spammer
2016-05-09 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> ohmy, prolly 50k warnings
2016-05-09 10:52 <whitequark> can you show me the log? I thought I fixed all that
2016-05-09 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I doubt it will fit into pastebin ;-P
2016-05-09 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/68808988
2016-05-09 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, too large
2016-05-09 10:54 <whitequark> 404
2016-05-09 10:54 <whitequark> wow
2016-05-09 10:54 <whitequark> that seems extreme
2016-05-09 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/58937120
2016-05-09 10:56 <DocScrutinizer05> this is maybe 0.1% of the log
2016-05-09 10:57 <whitequark> huh
2016-05-09 10:57 <whitequark> oh, gcc added some new warnings
2016-05-09 10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> wc -lc  gives    5607  761776
2016-05-09 10:59 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway
2016-05-09 10:59 <DocScrutinizer05> [100%] Linking C executable CDemo
2016-05-09 10:59 <DocScrutinizer05> [100%] Built target CDemo
2016-05-09 11:00 * DocScrutinizer05 curiously tries to run CDemo
2016-05-09 11:00 <whitequark> thats nothing interesting
2016-05-09 11:00 <whitequark> the demo of the solver separate from solvespace itself
2016-05-09 11:01 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/83507515 krhrhr yep
2016-05-09 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> soooo... what next?
2016-05-09 11:02 <whitequark> ./src/solvespace
2016-05-09 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah sudo make install?
2016-05-09 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> would prefer to test first
2016-05-09 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> k
2016-05-09 11:02 <whitequark> don't need make install
2016-05-09 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> \o/
2016-05-09 11:03 <whitequark> runs just fine form where it's built
2016-05-09 11:03 <whitequark> it has special code to detect that case and find all its usr/share junk
2016-05-09 11:03 <DocScrutinizer05> tiny colorful itsybitsyteenewheenie window :-D
2016-05-09 11:03 <whitequark> do you have a hidpi display or what?
2016-05-09 11:04 <DocScrutinizer05> don*t think so :-))
2016-05-09 11:04 <whitequark> hmmm then it shouldn't be that tiny
2016-05-09 11:04 <whitequark> but w/e
2016-05-09 11:04 <whitequark> tutorial http://solvespace.com/tutorial.pl reference http://solvespace.com/ref.pl
2016-05-09 11:04 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2016/05/09/plasma-desktopQc2219.png
2016-05-09 11:05 <whitequark> thats only one of its two windows
2016-05-09 11:05 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh right
2016-05-09 11:06 <DocScrutinizer05> and given it's nailed to top of stack, it rather be small :-)
2016-05-09 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> even funnier: doesn't show up in window list
2016-05-09 11:07 <whitequark> it's only supposed to be on top of the main window
2016-05-09 11:07 <whitequark> os x does this right and even windows does
2016-05-09 11:07 <whitequark> but x11 has no way to specify that
2016-05-09 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> it's on top of everything, all times
2016-05-09 11:07 <whitequark> yes
2016-05-09 11:07 <whitequark> i'd rather not do that but i can't
2016-05-09 11:08 <DocScrutinizer05> I will try to do a little fancy and create some khotkeys stuff for it to stay on top of main solvespace window only
2016-05-09 11:09 <DocScrutinizer05> I easily can unselect the "stay on top" property anyway, so not THAT bad
2016-05-09 11:09 <DocScrutinizer05> unless... I don't find it in window list to get it to top again
2016-05-09 11:09 <whitequark> alt+tab?
2016-05-09 11:10 <whitequark> also you can close and open it via menu in main window
2016-05-09 11:10 <DocScrutinizer05> no, doesn't even show up in aölt-tab list
2016-05-09 11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, so how about you closing it automatically when main window goes to background, and vice versa?
2016-05-09 11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds like the "easiest" implementation
2016-05-09 11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> better than some kdesktop scripting
2016-05-09 11:11 <whitequark> thats rather nasty
2016-05-09 11:12 <whitequark> i mean it works very well with my wm, for example
2016-05-09 11:12 <DocScrutinizer05> mompls, need to talk to evildragon
2016-05-09 11:12 <whitequark> what
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2016-05-09 11:18 <DocScrutinizer05> #dragonbox-pyra, sourcing of PLS8 modem modules
2016-05-09 11:19 <DocScrutinizer05> [2016-05-09 Mon 10:38:48] * DocScrutinizer05 tries to sort own options about joining in tomodem purchase with a few (hundred)   [2016-05-09 Mon 13:11:58] <EvilDragon> DocScrutinizer05, Sure, if you need the same parts, reaching MOQs is easier.
2016-05-09 11:36 <eintopf> :o EvilDragon
2016-05-09 11:37 <eintopf> the guy behind gp2x-shop
2016-05-09 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, a nice guy
2016-05-09 11:52 <eintopf> when I was ~14 I was very close to buy some gp2x
2016-05-09 11:52 <eintopf> but was too expensive
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2016-05-09 13:55 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: yes, the tiny window is definitely lost in nirvana once I disable the keep-on-top property
2016-05-09 13:56 <DocScrutinizer05> can't even find a way to disable and re-enable it from main window
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2016-05-09 13:57 <DocScrutinizer05> something about the window properties make it completely vanish in KDE window manager
2016-05-09 13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> so unless I minimize *all* other windows (which I didn't) there's no way to get back to that tiny window once it's allowed to go to background
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2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: View → Show Text Window
2016-05-09 22:24 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, mised that
2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark> what I do to it is
2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark>         set_keep_above(true);
2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark>         set_type_hint(Gdk::WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_UTILITY);
2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark>         set_skip_taskbar_hint(true);
2016-05-09 22:24 <whitequark>         set_skip_pager_hint(true);
2016-05-09 22:26 <DocScrutinizer05> the last two make the window unaccessable
2016-05-09 22:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and I don't understand why they are needed anyway, or rather what for
2016-05-09 22:27 <DocScrutinizer05> (my uneducated guess)
2016-05-09 22:28 <whitequark> I did that when porting from Windows to achieve identical behavior
2016-05-09 22:31 <whitequark> it doesn't seem like ICCCM has the behavior that I want
2016-05-09 23:12 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: wait no
2016-05-09 23:14 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: can you remove the line src/gtk/gtkmain.cpp:1318 and recompile?
2016-05-09 23:14 <whitequark> on Ubuntu's WM, this gives the exact behavior that I expect
2016-05-09 23:14 <whitequark> dunno if it does on kwin
2016-05-09 23:14 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: wouldn't you want to rather paste me a sed line?
2016-05-09 23:16 <DocScrutinizer05> like find . -name gtkmain.cpp -exec sed 's\1318\d' \;   or sth
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> I have no idea how to do that
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> can you just delete one line by its number?
2016-05-09 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> how to do what?
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> what
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> open the file in an editor
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> oh
2016-05-09 23:18 <whitequark> how to do *what*
2016-05-09 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I think so, but the idea actually would rather be to find the right line without a number that's possibly ambiguous or wrong
2016-05-09 23:19 <whitequark> it's the current HEAD and the line is "set_keep_above(true);"
2016-05-09 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> HEAD?
2016-05-09 23:19 <whitequark> the commit that you cloned yesterday
2016-05-09 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> nfc
2016-05-09 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I pasted a cmdline
2016-05-09 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> don't expect me to know what I did
2016-05-09 23:20 <whitequark> I don't, I already know what you did and it's enough
2016-05-09 23:21 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/neo900git/solvespace/build> less src/gtk/gtkmain.cpp
2016-05-09 23:21 <DocScrutinizer05> src/gtk/gtkmain.cpp: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden
2016-05-09 23:21 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/neo900git/solvespace/build> less ../src/gtk/gtkmain.cpp
2016-05-09 23:21 <DocScrutinizer05> now paste a unique string of the line to delete
2016-05-09 23:22 <whitequark> "set_keep_above(true);"
2016-05-09 23:22 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/neo900git/solvespace/build> sed -i "s/set_keep_above(true);//" ../src/gtk/gtkmain.cpp
2016-05-09 23:23 <DocScrutinizer05> [100%] Built target CDemo
2016-05-09 23:24 <whitequark> okay, now run it
2016-05-09 23:24 <whitequark> what happens on my ubuntu install (gnome) is that both solvespace windows stay on the same "layer"
2016-05-09 23:24 <DocScrutinizer05> the text window isn't stay-on-top anymore, rest unchanged
2016-05-09 23:25 <whitequark> when you switch to graphics window after overlapping text window with sth else, does text window come up?
2016-05-09 23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> so just what could be expected
2016-05-09 23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> no
2016-05-09 23:25 <whitequark> ok. lemme install kubuntu then
2016-05-09 23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I had to disable and re-enable text-window to find it again
2016-05-09 23:45 fengling has joined #qi-hardware