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2016-05-07 04:42 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer51: I just committed DXF import to SolveSpace
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2016-05-07 06:12 <wpwrak> whitequark: btw, when you have "connected" geometries, how do you transport bits from one to the other ? e.g., in the case of the anelok case, the "wedge" is made of two circles and both outer tangents. i don't know the length of the tangents (without calculating it). that length would in turn go to anything that defines the top side. e.g., a window or window frame. how would solvespace transport that value (or equivalent) from one ske
2016-05-07 06:12 <wpwrak> tch to the next ?
2016-05-07 06:13 <whitequark> I have no idea what are you talking about
2016-05-07 06:15 <wpwrak> ;-)
2016-05-07 06:15 <whitequark> "wedge"? wtf
2016-05-07 06:15 <wpwrak> ah, this is the overall form: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/case-interim/case-20150714.png
2016-05-07 06:15 <wpwrak> thought you knew it
2016-05-07 06:16 <wpwrak> on the side, the battery defines one circle. there's another one on the other end, smaller (with a more or less arbitrary radius)
2016-05-07 06:17 <wpwrak> i have the two radii plus the distance between the two centers
2016-05-07 06:18 <wpwrak> the top and bottom flat side is basically the two outer tangents on these circles / cylinders, extruded down the width of the case
2016-05-07 06:18 <wpwrak> now, one would want to do things that are based on the geometry of these flat sides. such as placing a window at the right spot
2016-05-07 06:19 <wpwrak> now would the 2D sketch that defines what's going on on the flat sides learn the length of the tangent ?
2016-05-07 06:20 <wpwrak> (or the points / lines where tangents touch circle / cylinder)
2016-05-07 06:27 <whitequark> solvespace does not have 2d sketches
2016-05-07 06:28 <whitequark> all sketches are inherently 3d, although when you are drawing "in 2d", all points are implicitly constrained in plane
2016-05-07 06:28 <wpwrak> so you do it all in the same 3D space as the main model ?
2016-05-07 06:28 <whitequark> there's no "main model"
2016-05-07 06:28 <whitequark> every sketch has one global coordinate space
2016-05-07 06:28 <wpwrak> so it's all in the same 3D space
2016-05-07 06:28 <whitequark> yep
2016-05-07 06:29 <wpwrak> okay, that should make this sort of "export/import" trivial
2016-05-07 06:31 <wpwrak> also probably also more understandable than the mix of "sketches" and other stuff in freecad :) (i dodge all this by scripting model generation, but that's of course not really the nicest way)
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2016-05-07 09:30 <wpwrak> whitequark: playing with solvespace ... how do you use variables for geometry constraints
2016-05-07 09:31 <wpwrak> err, i mean for dimensions
2016-05-07 09:31 <wpwrak> and when it goes red, it seems there's not much of a choice but to backpedal out with undo ? or is there a way to find out what's wrong and fix it more directly
2016-05-07 09:31 <wpwrak> ?
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2016-05-07 09:35 <wpwrak> same point constraints seem to come apart when it goes red :(
2016-05-07 09:37 <wpwrak> also not so nice that redundant constraints make it go red, without indicating where the conflict is
2016-05-07 09:40 <wpwrak> nice that one can select constraints directly. not so nice: if two share the same indication, one sees only one
2016-05-07 09:52 <wpwrak> whitequark: the number of arc segments is sometimes confusingly low
2016-05-07 09:55 <wpwrak> whitequark: playing with my wedge shape: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/slvs/wedge-070654.slvs
2016-05-07 09:57 <wpwrak> not everything is quite right there, though. e.g., there should be a global "wall thickness" parameter that gets used to calculate the big cylinder-arc (or whatever this is called) based on its inner cylinder, which is in turn battery diameter + a bit of slack
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2016-05-07 10:03 <wpwrak> the browser window is a bit inconvenient: should either stay on top of the main window or at least the main window shouldn't raise itself when clicked
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2016-05-07 12:48 <DocScrutinizer05> not like there are no desktops that can do that
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2016-05-07 18:23 <whitequark> wpwrak: you can't use variables in constraints (yet)
2016-05-07 18:28 <whitequark> wpwrak: when it goes red, the browser window shows which constraints are problematic and what you can do about it
2016-05-07 18:28 <wpwrak> ewww :(
2016-05-07 18:29 <wpwrak> ah, should position the browser window more prominently then. i only found it by accident
2016-05-07 18:29 <whitequark> 'position'?
2016-05-07 18:29 <whitequark> the browser window is extremely important in solvespace, everything is done through it
2016-05-07 18:30 <wpwrak> it disappears easily under the model window
2016-05-07 18:31 <whitequark> your WM is broken
2016-05-07 18:31 <whitequark> there's an "always on top" flag set on the browser window
2016-05-07 18:31 <wpwrak> that information doesn't seem t make it
2016-05-07 18:31 <wpwrak> (using fvwm here)
2016-05-07 18:31 <whitequark> it's the standard icccm flag. i3 respects it
2016-05-07 18:32 <whitequark> ditto any common WMs (kwm and whatever gnome and unity use)
2016-05-07 18:34 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: wpwrak's window manager is known to not support those flags like "always on top"
2016-05-07 18:34 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: "< whitequark> your WM is broken"
2016-05-07 18:35 <DocScrutinizer05> that's why I answered
2016-05-07 18:35 <whitequark> i specifically positioned it more prominently
2016-05-07 18:35 <whitequark> dunno what else can i do
2016-05-07 18:35 <whitequark> wpwrak: "the number of arc segments is sometimes confusingly low" configuration -> chord tolerance
2016-05-07 18:36 <whitequark> for display it's specified in % of model bounding box
2016-05-07 18:36 <whitequark> since that gives you consistent results regardless of part scale
2016-05-07 18:36 <whitequark> for export it's specified in mm, e.g. if you want to 3d-print
2016-05-07 18:37 <DocScrutinizer05> how about (heresy warning) a non-multiwindowed UI?
2016-05-07 18:37 <whitequark> wpwrak: "same point constraints seem to come apart when it goes red :("
2016-05-07 18:37 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc aka modal vs non-modal
2016-05-07 18:38 <whitequark> when it's red, the solver can't do anything, not even propagate point-coincident constraints
2016-05-07 18:38 <DocScrutinizer05> (though I think that had another meaning, about focus grab)
2016-05-07 18:38 <whitequark> you aren't supposed to do anything in that mode except fix them
2016-05-07 18:38 <whitequark> wpwrak: "nice that one can select constraints directly. not so nice: if two share the same indication, one sees only one"
2016-05-07 18:38 <whitequark> you can hover constraints in the browser window
2016-05-07 18:38 <whitequark> and you get a highlight in the graphics window
2016-05-07 18:39 <whitequark> so you can distinguish them by the name
2016-05-07 18:39 <whitequark> you can also right-click on points and select "delete point-coincident" if that helps
2016-05-07 18:39 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: yes modal is about focus
2016-05-07 18:39 <whitequark> re non-multiwindow UI: I have no especial objection to that, but the architecture I inherited makes that hard
2016-05-07 18:40 <DocScrutinizer05> can't recall which program allowed selection of either multiwindow or one-window (tiled) GUI
2016-05-07 18:41 <whitequark> eh plenty of programs have something like "dock"
2016-05-07 18:41 <DocScrutinizer05> checked eagle but can't find it there. gimp maybe?
2016-05-07 18:41 <whitequark> gimp yes
2016-05-07 18:44 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: can you snap windows into other windows?
2016-05-07 18:44 <whitequark> no
2016-05-07 18:44 <DocScrutinizer05> k, nice try
2016-05-07 18:44 <whitequark> something to keep in mind is that i have to support three platforms
2016-05-07 18:45 <whitequark> win32 cocoa and gtk
2016-05-07 18:46 <whitequark> so tricks like snapping windows onto others need quite a lot of work to implement
2016-05-07 18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2016-05-07 18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Qt?
2016-05-07 18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> not a suggestion but a question
2016-05-07 18:47 <whitequark> Qt is shit on OS Ч
2016-05-07 18:47 <whitequark> OS X
2016-05-07 18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> so I gather it doesn't use qt
2016-05-07 18:47 <whitequark> not the library itself but the UI it creates
2016-05-07 18:47 <whitequark> no, I use native win32 and cocoa interfaces on those platforms
2016-05-07 18:48 <whitequark> thats the only way to get a *good* UI
2016-05-07 18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, prolly right
2016-05-07 18:49 <DocScrutinizer05> eagle "recently" switched to Qt and I have to say I'm not impressed much, even on linux
2016-05-07 18:49 <whitequark> "recently"?
2016-05-07 18:49 <whitequark> it was like a decade ago at least
2016-05-07 18:49 <DocScrutinizer05> like maybe a year ago
2016-05-07 18:49 <whitequark> no
2016-05-07 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> err
2016-05-07 18:50 <whitequark> a year ago they switched from qt3 (iirc) to qt5
2016-05-07 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah k
2016-05-07 18:50 <whitequark> might have been qt4 somewhere in between, unsure. but eagle always used qt
2016-05-07 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> didn't know it was Qt already
2016-05-07 18:50 <whitequark> qt5 has different rendering
2016-05-07 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway looks like shit now
2016-05-07 18:51 <whitequark> show  me a screenshot. prolly your system is misconfigured
2016-05-07 18:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and still no *decent* keymapping features, particularly for mousebuttons etc
2016-05-07 18:51 <whitequark> s/mis/not-/
2016-05-07 18:51 <qi-bot> whitequark meant: "show  me a screenshot. prolly your system is not-configured"
2016-05-07 18:51 <whitequark> yes. no keymapping. but that's not qt's fault, eagle just has a bad ui
2016-05-07 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/20088836
2016-05-07 18:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, keymapping is a genuine eagle fsckup
2016-05-07 18:53 <DocScrutinizer05> you can map keys, but not mousebuttons etc
2016-05-07 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> also the icons of editr window are soooo yuck
2016-05-07 18:54 <whitequark> your paste is just "/srv/mirrors/devuan/files.devuan.org/"
2016-05-07 18:55 <DocScrutinizer05> damn!!
2016-05-07 18:55 <whitequark> wpwrak: looked at your "wedge", it looks reasonable to me
2016-05-07 18:55 <DocScrutinizer05> wstaw,org cocks up once again
2016-05-07 18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2016/05/07/plasma-desktopUB2219.png
2016-05-07 18:58 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly was eagle which even makes screenshot app act funny
2016-05-07 18:59 <DocScrutinizer05> but honestly look at those menus!
2016-05-07 18:59 <DocScrutinizer05> YUCK!
2016-05-07 19:00 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess what I don't like the most about them is the white background
2016-05-07 19:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I prolly need that Qt configurator to set up such stuff?
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2016-05-07 19:10 <whitequark> errrr what's wrong with that? seems ok to me
2016-05-07 19:10 <whitequark> same as qt5 looks over here
2016-05-07 19:10 <whitequark> iirc there's a switch to get the old toolicons too
2016-05-07 19:10 <whitequark> Options -> User Interface → Classic icon style
2016-05-07 19:13 <DocScrutinizer05> duh!
2016-05-07 19:16 <DocScrutinizer05> the menus still look strange with that white background
2016-05-07 19:18 <whitequark> do you use kde?
2016-05-07 19:18 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2016-05-07 19:19 <whitequark> systemsettings → application style
2016-05-07 19:19 <whitequark> eagle should respect that
2016-05-07 19:19 <DocScrutinizer05> well, seems it doesn't?
2016-05-07 19:19 <whitequark> what do you set there?
2016-05-07 19:19 <DocScrutinizer05> or is that eagle specific?
2016-05-07 19:19 <whitequark> no that's systemwide
2016-05-07 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> all my other menus look different in all apps
2016-05-07 19:20 <whitequark> mhm, can you run eagle from console and show me any messages it prints?
2016-05-07 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> since otherwise the eagle menus wouldn't look strange to me ;-)
2016-05-07 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
2016-05-07 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't print anything there
2016-05-07 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~> ~/eagle-7.5/bin/eagle    -->zilch
2016-05-07 19:25 <whitequark> mm
2016-05-07 19:25 <whitequark> and are you running kde4 or kde5?
2016-05-07 19:25 <DocScrutinizer05> 4
2016-05-07 19:26 <whitequark> ohhhh
2016-05-07 19:26 <whitequark> that's why
2016-05-07 19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ahaaa
2016-05-07 19:26 <whitequark> systemsettings4 doesn't set the right vars for qt5
2016-05-07 19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> *sigh* I hate that shit
2016-05-07 19:27 <DocScrutinizer05> Qt5, honestly now? how many more versions will they need until they go "stable"
2016-05-07 19:27 <whitequark> never?
2016-05-07 19:27 <whitequark> requirements are ever-changing
2016-05-07 19:27 <DocScrutinizer05> what a shit
2016-05-07 19:28 <whitequark> well, no, not really
2016-05-07 19:28 <whitequark> the major reason for qt5 incompatibility is that all its drawing operations were redone in terms of GLES
2016-05-07 19:28 <DocScrutinizer05> so how does API care?
2016-05-07 19:29 <whitequark> there are very few breaking API changes between qt4 and qt5, mostly with good reason
2016-05-07 19:29 <whitequark> e.g. reducing hardcoded x11 stuff
2016-05-07 19:30 <DocScrutinizer05> instead of stabilizing stuff, each new version of KDE/Qt3/4/5 seems to introduce unique new bugs and problems
2016-05-07 19:30 <DocScrutinizer05> while keeping the old ones. or at least new bugs are more than the old abandoned ones
2016-05-07 19:31 <whitequark> the behavior you dislike right now is not a bug
2016-05-07 19:31 <whitequark> it's the same problem as e.g. running gtk apps on kde54
2016-05-07 19:31 <DocScrutinizer05> KDE3 worked, KDE4 is crap, I'm 'really looking forward'¡ to KDE5
2016-05-07 19:31 <whitequark> *on kde4
2016-05-07 19:34 <DocScrutinizer05> but yeah, my distro here is already almost 2 years old, how dare I
2016-05-07 19:35 <whitequark> yes. it's full of security bugs, because it's written in shitty c
2016-05-07 19:35 <DocScrutinizer05> the distro? Qt? KDE?
2016-05-07 19:36 <whitequark> the distro
2016-05-07 19:36 <whitequark> X11 isn't even "full" of security bugs, it IS a security bug, like it's literally impossible to write a robust screenlocker for X11
2016-05-07 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, so let's discard it and get wayland shit instead
2016-05-07 19:37 <whitequark> yes
2016-05-07 19:37 <whitequark> X11 should have been dumped into a trashcan decades ago
2016-05-07 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> and when stuff like VNC finally starts working again, I bet they already have some new leete shit we *must* adopt
2016-05-07 19:37 <whitequark> it's bad at drawing stuff, it's bad at window management, it has nonexistent security
2016-05-07 19:37 <whitequark> there is absolutely nothing x11 is good at
2016-05-07 19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> it works
2016-05-07 19:38 <whitequark> nah.
2016-05-07 19:38 <whitequark> it doesn't.
2016-05-07 19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> here it does
2016-05-07 19:38 <whitequark> it """works""" because of a pile of fragile hacks that happens to appear like it works some of the time
2016-05-07 19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> unless some crappy Qt5 stuff comes along
2016-05-07 19:38 <whitequark> like most of unix, really
2016-05-07 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the way I like it
2016-05-07 19:39 <whitequark> then don't complain when others fix your shitty OS
2016-05-07 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I do
2016-05-07 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> cascade of ADHS youngsters
2016-05-07 19:40 <whitequark> yes, incompetent old farts are much better
2016-05-07 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
2016-05-07 19:40 <whitequark> </sarcasm>
2016-05-07 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly when the attributed "incompetent" comes from such youngsters of the sort of Poettering et al
2016-05-07 19:41 <whitequark> well, you know I am not fond of poettering
2016-05-07 19:41 <whitequark> his "fixes" aren't any better than the old broken way
2016-05-07 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> there's an army of those nitwits
2016-05-07 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> trying to "fix UNIX"
2016-05-07 19:41 <whitequark> that doesn't mean that the old broken way is any good though
2016-05-07 19:42 <whitequark> yes, because practically every part of UNIX is broken by design. it would take an army to fix it, indeed
2016-05-07 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> please roll your own OS then, leave unix alone
2016-05-07 19:42 <whitequark> half of the core APIs are better in *Windows*
2016-05-07 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> then fix windows please!
2016-05-07 19:42 <larsc> I just wanted to say, lets all switch to windows
2016-05-07 19:43 <whitequark> Debian/kWindowsNT is not a bad idea
2016-05-07 19:43 <whitequark> winnt is a great kernel
2016-05-07 19:43 <whitequark> windows userspace is shit too though
2016-05-07 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> lemme put it this way: as long as those leet devels are not capable to improve on the old while keeping 100(!)% backward compatibility, they are simply not competent enough to qualify to "fix unix/linux/whatever"
2016-05-07 19:46 <whitequark> you cannot keep 100% backward compatibility
2016-05-07 19:46 <whitequark> your requirements are impossible.
2016-05-07 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> you just diqualified
2016-05-07 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yourself
2016-05-07 19:46 <whitequark> it's just "get off my lawn" masqueraded as "objective requirements"
2016-05-07 19:47 <whitequark> and no, i won't get off your lawn, and i won't appease your stockholm syndrome either
2016-05-07 19:48 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed get off my lawn, instead of telling me "this wayland stuff is much better, just forget about all the tools you had so far, they don't work anymore with this new leete wayland. Incl VNC and whatnot"
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2016-05-07 19:50 <DocScrutinizer05> replace "wayland" by "systemd" or whatever you like, in last statement
2016-05-07 19:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see a single "requirement" that e.g. Qt4 made feasible and I missed it in Qt3
2016-05-07 19:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see any security issues with my X11 either
2016-05-07 19:52 <whitequark> https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-88/product_id-147/X.org-X11.html
2016-05-07 19:52 <whitequark> and.... let me find the locker ones
2016-05-07 19:53 <DocScrutinizer05> and for sure I don't need any systemd messing up my whole system, to cure dunno what, boottime?
2016-05-07 19:53 <whitequark> https://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/04/i-told-you-so-again/ by the author of xscreensaver no less
2016-05-07 19:54 <whitequark> this is a problem *in x11*, because x11 has no robust way for an application to say "i'm the screen locker"
2016-05-07 19:54 <whitequark> well, no way at all, you can only try to fake it, badly
2016-05-07 19:54 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds like an XY problem of sorts. Somebody can't implement some crap so the underlying infra must be broken. Maybe the approachis broken and nobody really needs that crap he wants to implement?
2016-05-07 19:54 <whitequark> yes. no one needs screen lockers.
2016-05-07 19:55 <whitequark> obviously.
2016-05-07 19:55 <whitequark> have you considered actually thinking about use cases that do not perfectly match the one thing you want to do?
2016-05-07 19:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I actually don't need, and even if I did, it seems they worked so far
2016-05-07 19:56 <DocScrutinizer05> I thinkignoring usecases is a privilege of Poettering and friends
2016-05-07 20:00 <DocScrutinizer05> a pretty sane rationale to nuke unix completely a reassemble it in a completely different incompatible way, to make stuff like screen lockers with session switching, audio during bootmenu, and multiseat work
2016-05-07 20:03 <pigeons> need the qr codes and http servers in the init system too
2016-05-07 20:06 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, systemd is already there to meet your needs
2016-05-07 20:06 <whitequark> i can't stand systemd
2016-05-07 20:06 <whitequark> poettering is just as incompetent as those before him, just with more bloat
2016-05-07 20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> btw lovely hubris by wayland devels when they think their code would immenently have less CVEs than X11
2016-05-07 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> and actually screenlocker *is* an XY problem, you can't implement a decent screenlocker on app level without support from the display/window-manager. So better implement it outside and above of the whole display-manager system tight away
2016-05-07 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> right away*
2016-05-07 20:21 <whitequark> yes, that's exactly what wayland does. the screenlocker is implemented in the compositor itself
2016-05-07 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> *shrug*
2016-05-07 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> no argument to go for wayland
2016-05-07 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> actualy I think implementing the screensaver *into* the display manager is flawed design
2016-05-07 20:24 <whitequark> not screensaver, no
2016-05-07 20:24 <whitequark> kde5 doesn't have screensavers anymore
2016-05-07 20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> it should be a system unentangled with display manager
2016-05-07 20:24 <whitequark> which actually pisses me off a lot but security wise it makes sense
2016-05-07 20:25 <DocScrutinizer05> once a screensaver was exactly that. While a login screen was something entirely different, by purpose as well as implementation
2016-05-07 20:26 <whitequark> yes. screensavers and screenlockers are completely different classes of software that were wrongly intermingled
2016-05-07 20:26 <DocScrutinizer05> mixing up the two is arguably not the right thing to do
2016-05-07 20:41 <DocScrutinizer05> (screenlocker) must disable the normal display/window-manager's functions completely, incl kbd input and whatnot. Like switching to a new console (ctrl-alt-F9). Even providing support in display manager for an app to take over completely is a security risk since then any arbitrary such app could take over from display manager and intercept user's inputs
2016-05-07 20:43 <whitequark> hence wayland removes the XTEST functionality, used by x screenlockers
2016-05-07 20:43 <whitequark> and also, incidentally, vnc servers
2016-05-07 20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you are aware why on windows you're supposed to press ctrl-alt-del to login, are you?
2016-05-07 20:44 <whitequark> yes
2016-05-07 20:45 <whitequark> alt+sysrq+k on linux
2016-05-07 20:45 <whitequark> that solves a slightly different problem: someone impersonating a login screen
2016-05-07 20:45 <whitequark> so you need something to be intercepted by the kernel, before it ever reaches *any* userspace
2016-05-07 20:45 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I think on ISA PC that's even deeper, you can't block it at a softzware level, causes a NMI iirc
2016-05-07 20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> alt-ctl-del that is
2016-05-07 20:46 <whitequark> on anything 32-bit it's just a keyboard input, has to be so or you couldn't login from USB keyboards
2016-05-07 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno, it actually makes sense that there's no IRQ line/wire in the kbd cable so something has to decode the keycodes
2016-05-07 20:47 <whitequark> well with PS/2 you could decode that in hardware if you wanted
2016-05-07 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe I'm wrong on the hw NMI thing
2016-05-07 20:47 <whitequark> thats an FSM that compares three bytes, not too hard
2016-05-07 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> aaaah then prolly that was it
2016-05-07 20:48 <whitequark> no idea if it actually worked like that, just speculating
2016-05-07 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess there must be a reason for ps/2 jacks _still_ existing, and I tink I faintly recall I heard sth ölike this
2016-05-07 20:49 <whitequark> that NMI thing certainly don't happens on any 32-bit systems, that much i know
2016-05-07 20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> once in the PC pleozen there must have been an IRQ to recover a locked up system
2016-05-07 20:50 <whitequark> ps/2 jacks mostly stopped existing a few years ago, you'd be hard pressed to find such a motherboard
2016-05-07 20:50 <whitequark> even vga is practically dead
2016-05-07 20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I bought a PC 1 year ago which still has them
2016-05-07 20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> new
2016-05-07 20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> there's a number of funny "cruft" in standard ISA PC mobos
2016-05-07 20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> A20-gate for example ;-)
2016-05-07 20:52 <whitequark> ugh
2016-05-07 20:53 <whitequark> what pisses me off the most is that new SoCs are just as crufty, actually probably even more so
2016-05-07 20:53 <whitequark> just hard IP slapped together by some intern
2016-05-07 20:54 <whitequark> have you heard that intel laid off most of their verification team?
2016-05-07 20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> wow, great!
2016-05-07 20:54 <whitequark> http://danluu.com/cpu-bugs/
2016-05-07 20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> to start with: they had any?
2016-05-07 20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-D
2016-05-07 20:55 <whitequark> yes, they had a massive amount of people dedicated to that
2016-05-07 20:55 <whitequark> which is why they were able to ship the monster that is x86 and have it work at all
2016-05-07 21:00 <pigeons> i use ps2 ports for keyboards and mice to have more available usb ports
2016-05-07 21:03 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zADyh0JQh8
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2016-05-07 21:05 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: have you tried out the dxf import feature yet?
2016-05-07 21:05 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFphpY_3hk8
2016-05-07 21:05 <DocScrutinizer05> nope
2016-05-07 21:06 <DocScrutinizer05> friggin bot went south again
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2016-05-07 22:23 <wpwrak> whitequark: hmm, seems that gtk_window_set_keep_above is only advisory, and you're not guaranteed that it works
2016-05-07 22:23 <wpwrak> i wonder why the graphics window keeps in crawling on top, though. you're not calling gtk_window_present anywhere.
2016-05-07 22:24 <whitequark> wpwrak: yes. it's advisory. X11 does not have any way to make that mandatory, your WM is supposed to make sure of that
2016-05-07 22:24 <whitequark> and it keeps crawling on top perhaps because you're clicking on it?
2016-05-07 22:24 <wpwrak> the WM is only supposed to take it into consideration :)
2016-05-07 22:24 <wpwrak> clicking on a window itself shouldn't raise it
2016-05-07 22:25 <wpwrak> e.g., i can put an xterm under the browser window and click on it all day, and nothing happens
2016-05-07 22:25 <whitequark> that's windows of a different application though
2016-05-07 22:25 <wpwrak> or even with this xchat (under an xterm)
2016-05-07 22:25 <whitequark> try doing that with two browser windows to get an accurate comparison
2016-05-07 22:26 <wpwrak> a browser is a little universe onto itself ;-)
2016-05-07 22:26 <whitequark> well, anything else that has two nonmodal windows
2016-05-07 22:26 <whitequark> gimp
2016-05-07 22:30 <wpwrak> if it's something gtk does by default, then there must be a way to turn it off. now, how do they call this ...
2016-05-07 22:31 <whitequark> that's not gtk, that's your WM...
2016-05-07 22:31 <wpwrak> of course, everyone is looking for the opposite ... how to make MY window dominate all the rest of the pile ... :(
2016-05-07 22:31 <whitequark> gtk has no say in window ordering at all
2016-05-07 22:32 <wpwrak> i'm trying to think of a bare X11 program that opens multiple windows ...
2016-05-07 22:34 <wpwrak> hard to find these days. but it would surprise me a bit if the WM would get involved if it doesn't care about auto-raising if windows are not from the same application
2016-05-07 22:35 <whitequark> https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Window_creation/X11#Xlib
2016-05-07 22:35 <whitequark> I'm sure you'll manage to open two ;)
2016-05-07 22:38 <wpwrak> opened two, and as expected, fvwm doesn't get involved
2016-05-07 22:39 <wpwrak> borrowing a bit of neo900 infrastructure: https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/w2-Iephae8k.c     https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/Makefile-Aiw4xaj1
2016-05-07 22:40 <whitequark> hmmmm no idea then. i continue to insist that your wm should just respect the "above" flag
2016-05-07 22:44 <whitequark> though, if you produce a patch that does work for you, i'll probably merge it
2016-05-07 22:56 <wpwrak> hmm, tried to  TW->set_transient_for(*GW);  but alas, no effect
2016-05-07 22:56 <wpwrak> the "push to front" effect of GW is very strong
2016-05-07 22:56 <wpwrak> and it also does this against windows from other applications
2016-05-07 22:57 <whitequark> i definitely never added such behavior intentionally
2016-05-07 22:58 <wpwrak> ... which isn't something gtk does on its own either (tried with some gtk apps of my own)
2016-05-07 22:58 <whitequark> that have two toplevel windows?
2016-05-07 22:58 <wpwrak> e.g., i can edit around in fped all day and it never tries to displace other windows
2016-05-07 22:59 <wpwrak> i'm testing single-window gtk vs. xterm
2016-05-07 22:59 <wpwrak> solvespace's GW always goes on top immediately. my gtk apps never do
2016-05-07 22:59 <whitequark> i'm pretty sure this is related to having two windows in one application
2016-05-07 23:01 <wpwrak> i closed TW, and it still happens
2016-05-07 23:02 <whitequark> oh, so GW is raised even against other applications?
2016-05-07 23:02 <whitequark> oh, i see
2016-05-07 23:02 <whitequark> are you building with GTK2 or GTK3?
2016-05-07 23:03 <wpwrak> libgtk-x11-2.0.so.0  and  libgtkmm-2.4.so.1
2016-05-07 23:03 <whitequark> ok, so gtk2
2016-05-07 23:03 <whitequark> hm.
2016-05-07 23:04 <whitequark> thats very bizarre
2016-05-07 23:05 <wpwrak> it seems to be caused by drawing, not the input itself. e.g., if i type "1", which seems to be ignored, nothign happens
2016-05-07 23:05 <whitequark> thats not mouse
2016-05-07 23:06 <wpwrak> ah no, G (if just toggling state) doesn't raise it either
2016-05-07 23:06 <whitequark> yes, this is related to mouse
2016-05-07 23:06 <wpwrak> yeah, just thought it may be input in general
2016-05-07 23:07 <whitequark> try commenting out line 553 and 573 in gtkmain.cpp
2016-05-07 23:07 <wpwrak> it's also not mouse in general :)
2016-05-07 23:07 <wpwrak> wheel and right-click do nothing
2016-05-07 23:09 <wpwrak> yup, that eliminates the raising. unless i double-click left
2016-05-07 23:09 <whitequark> let's say you double-click left
2016-05-07 23:09 <whitequark> and it doesn't open an editor
2016-05-07 23:09 <whitequark> still happens?
2016-05-07 23:11 <wpwrak> yes
2016-05-07 23:11 <wpwrak> so it must be something that happens when SS processes the mouse event
2016-05-07 23:11 <wpwrak> let's find out what ...
2016-05-07 23:12 <wpwrak> btw, i'm getting a bunch of warnings when compiling. known issue ?
2016-05-07 23:12 <whitequark> which?
2016-05-07 23:13 <wpwrak> oh, a few dozen. so it should compile without warnings ? here's an example: https://neo900.org/stuff/paste/yaeVo4ji
2016-05-07 23:14 <whitequark> ohh
2016-05-07 23:14 <whitequark> your gtk is too old
2016-05-07 23:14 <whitequark> that's nothing i can fix, it's a gtk issue
2016-05-07 23:15 <whitequark> are there others?
2016-05-07 23:15 <wpwrak> i think so. i'll do a full build later and send you the output
2016-05-07 23:15 <whitequark> generally i keep it warning-free, and use -Wall, so yeah
2016-05-07 23:16 <wpwrak> good. that's what i thought :) wish everyone had that attitude ;-)
2016-05-07 23:16 <whitequark> hm, actually -Wall is not in the build flags for some reason
2016-05-07 23:20 <wpwrak> hmm, this may get tricky. left click on "empty" did raise the window. commenting out the call to SS.TW.HideEditControl(); in GraphicsWindow::MouseLeftDown (mouse.cpp) make it not raise the window in this case. however, if the click selects an object, the window still raises
2016-05-07 23:21 <wpwrak> aaah !!! ;-)
2016-05-07 23:21 <whitequark> .... oh
2016-05-07 23:21 <whitequark> GW->raise();
2016-05-07 23:21 <wpwrak> gtk/gtkmain.cpp  HideTextEditControl(void)
2016-05-07 23:21 <whitequark> so i do in fact call it explicitly
2016-05-07 23:21 <wpwrak> yeah ;-)
2016-05-07 23:22 <whitequark> ok that's very simple to fix
2016-05-07 23:22 <whitequark> wrap it in if(TW->get_overlay().is_editing()) {}
2016-05-07 23:22 <whitequark> I'll commit it soon
2016-05-07 23:23 <wpwrak> commented it out and it makes things a lot smoother. now, if a dialog comes up, the browser still gets pushed down. let's see if this can be fixed, too ...
2016-05-07 23:25 <wpwrak> mmh, no such luck :(
2016-05-07 23:25 <wpwrak> tried to do it with set_transient_for
2016-05-07 23:25 <whitequark> fwvm probably doesn't care about that either
2016-05-07 23:26 <wpwrak> maybe it needs to be called at a specific time and i'm doing it too late. let's see ..
2016-05-07 23:37 <wpwrak> nope, no effect
2016-05-07 23:38 <wpwrak> a dialog also makes GW raise above xterms. though that looks less unexpected. let's see if this is really something "normal" ...
2016-05-07 23:52 <whitequark> wpwrak: does replacing raise() with show() do something nasty on your WM?
2016-05-07 23:57 <whitequark> hm, nevermind, I can just remove that
2016-05-07 23:57 <whitequark> doesn't seem to have any ill effect