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2016-03-01 01:46 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv (flush): sanitize name of local data sheet copy (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/006940d
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2016-03-01 10:15 <kyak> just discovered the NO_ACT option in irssi's ignore settings. How did i live without it?
2016-03-01 10:16 <kyak> for example, it can be set so that the [commit] messages from qi-bot are not ignored, but simply don't mark the channel as "Act:"
2016-03-01 10:16 <kyak> this way, i don't have to switch to the channel unless somebody actually said something :)
2016-03-01 10:18 <larsc> so basically never
2016-03-01 10:19 <kyak> no, i just had to switch because of your message! :)
2016-03-01 10:20 <kyak> but basically, yes -\
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2016-03-01 18:19 <wpwrak> hmm, i could bemoan the injustice that all those well-paid quantum mechanics still haven't figured out how to make a decent ideal FET. e.g. with Rds(on) = 0 Ohm, very low Vgs(th), infinite Vgs(max) and Id, and of course no leakage whatsoever
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> well, they are pretty close
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> Rds_on of 5mOhm is alresdy reality
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> is*
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> Rds_on of 5mOhm id alresdy reality
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> ugh
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> low quiescent and creep currents are also normal, and voltages up to 50 are standard, more available
2016-03-01 18:37 <DocScrutinizer51> silego has some nice stuff with integrated charge pump
2016-03-01 18:48 <roh> be happy that there is some resistance left
2016-03-01 18:48 <roh> imagine it would be 0.. and your wires too... that would be nasty and one would have to invent something to limit powerflow ;)
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2016-03-01 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ~+chaninfo
2016-03-01 18:50 <infobot> 125/125 channels, 4460 users, 3424 unique: #debian/1554, #kde/446, #gsoc/344, #asterisk/184, #maemo/169, #wowuidev/130, #oe/128, #neo900/89, #wowace/89, #utah/81, #cubieboard/71, #harmattan/58, #wowhead/55, #meego/50, #qi-hardware/49, #openmoko/48, #bzflag/46, #openmoko-cdevel/42, #asterisk-dev/41, #arm-netbook/41, #webos-internals/41, #curseforge/40, #maemo-ssu/40, #elinux/32, #uphpu/27, #slug/24, #brlcad/24, #debianppc/21, #sc2mapster/20, ...
2016-03-01 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ~+chanset purl
2016-03-01 18:50 <infobot> Showing purl values on all channels...
2016-03-01 18:50 <infobot>   purl = NOT-SET(162): # ##bspress ##bz-inc ##debian-br ##ducleague ##essy ##guleague ##icf ##kierra ##lds ##leaguesunited ##ols ##openjtag ##pxe ##stouteriks ##t42 #aegis #android #arl #arm-netbook #asterisk #asterisk-bugs #asterisk-dev #asterisk-doc #asterisk-scf #asterisk-scf-dev #botpark #brits #brlcad #buglabs #byumug #bz-inc #bzflag #bzflag-chat #bzleague #bzmods #casualti #catroid #crosstool-ng #cubieboard #curseforge #cyrannus #dbgc #debian ...
2016-03-01 18:50 <infobot> End of list.
2016-03-01 18:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ~+chanset ##bz-inc
2016-03-01 18:51 <infobot> chan: ##bz-inc (see _default also)
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2016-03-01 18:51 <DocScrutinizer05> god! purl_
2016-03-01 18:51 <wpwrak> Vgs often tends to be pretty low. e.g., i see a lot of FETs (mainly from vishay) that only tolerate 5 V
2016-03-01 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> Vgs is not that relevant
2016-03-01 18:52 <wpwrak> it is if you connect this to VBUS ;-)
2016-03-01 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> ohwell
2016-03-01 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> then you need a p-fet instead a n-fet (or vice versa)
2016-03-01 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> so you can connect source source to VBUS
2016-03-01 18:54 <wpwrak> well, that could get another volt or so, but adds operational constraints to the equation. better to pick a FET with enough headroom
2016-03-01 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> on gate you do VBus || Vbus - 2V then
2016-03-01 18:55 <wpwrak> it's for suppressing the battery when USB is present, and for making VBUS compatible with logic levels for detection
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2016-03-01 18:55 <DocScrutinizer05> check out the silego greenFET stuff, they have pretty nice chips
2016-03-01 18:55 <wpwrak> alas, the voltage ranges are such that i can't just tweak things with resistors
2016-03-01 18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> MOQ 10, iirc
2016-03-01 18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> < 100ct
2016-03-01 19:09 <wpwrak> more like MDQ 100. but way too greedy. as soon as you need a charge pump, you lose
2016-03-01 19:10 <wpwrak> (just checked the silego parts. alas, nothing that sticks out as being much better than the rest of the switches i've looked at.)
2016-03-01 19:11 <wpwrak> well, just a question of finding the right FET ... and then two more, for 2nd and 3rd source, just in case
2016-03-01 19:11 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm :-/
2016-03-01 19:12 <DocScrutinizer05> isn't that chargepump only drawing power when you have the FET open anyway?
2016-03-01 19:12 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh that's your problem, I see :-)
2016-03-01 19:12 <DocScrutinizer05> you'd need a chip that activates chargepump to go into switch-off state
2016-03-01 19:14 <DocScrutinizer05> you have no voltage regulation, right? How about an ideal diode in battery power?
2016-03-01 19:14 <wpwrak> (pump) yup :) in switch-off, i have all the power i want :)
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2016-03-01 19:32 <wpwrak> well, could save some mOhm by putting in an inverter
2016-03-01 19:32 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, exactly
2016-03-01 19:32 <DocScrutinizer05> or even control the EN by MCU GPIO
2016-03-01 19:33 <DocScrutinizer05> if you got a spare one
2016-03-01 19:33 <wpwrak> i'd rather not have the MCU control its own power ;-)
2016-03-01 19:33 <DocScrutinizer05> you gotta detect USB VBus anyway, somehow
2016-03-01 19:33 <DocScrutinizer05> how do you do that?
2016-03-01 19:33 <wpwrak> i only have a valid USB_nSENSE if the MCU is up and has enabled a pull-up
2016-03-01 19:34 <DocScrutinizer05> well, then connect the EN in a way so it's active when MCU is down
2016-03-01 19:35 <wpwrak> tricky. what if the MCU gets confused while ramping up or down ?
2016-03-01 19:36 <DocScrutinizer05> gets confused?
2016-03-01 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> btw we had same power control in that wikireader thing :-)
2016-03-01 19:37 <wpwrak> glitches, etc.
2016-03-01 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> add a capacitor
2016-03-01 19:37 <wpwrak> yeah, in GTA01, too. and it produced very interesting effects ;-)
2016-03-01 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> in wikireader it worked great
2016-03-01 19:37 <wpwrak> luck :)
2016-03-01 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, JR-design
2016-03-01 19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
2016-03-01 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> know your CPU, add deglitching as needed, have a mech switch to bridge all the electronict to power up (MCU will be stable before you release that button anyway)
2016-03-01 19:40 <wpwrak> naw, let's keep things simple
2016-03-01 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> how simple?
2016-03-01 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> suspend mode for CPU?
2016-03-01 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> there's hardly anything simpler than a pushbutton with a CPU GPIO controlled parallel FET
2016-03-01 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and you can expect <1uA quescent current, for sure
2016-03-01 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> possibly rather in the low nA range
2016-03-01 19:42 <wpwrak> adding mechanical components is messy as far as i'm concerned
2016-03-01 19:43 <wpwrak> well, electromechanical
2016-03-01 19:43 <DocScrutinizer05> pushbutton switch from EN to VBAT, capacitor on EN to GND, resistor from EN to GPIO. Done
2016-03-01 19:44 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as you keep the pushbutton pressed, no worries about any glitches whatsoever
2016-03-01 19:44 <wpwrak> naw, let's design it such that it works without such patches
2016-03-01 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmm, when you hate that little hole for the switch button, how about using sth leete like e.g a spring+mass based g-meter - you whirl the dongle to switch on :-)
2016-03-01 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> (I.E. >2g for long enough)
2016-03-01 19:46 <wpwrak> btw, you'll probably like the way i provide standby power: with silo caps next to the MCU, and an MCU-controlled FET before them, to isolate the MCU from the system voltage. power-up is still assured, irrespective of what the CPU tells the FET, through the body diode :)
2016-03-01 19:47 <wpwrak> (adding junk) anelok is a cost-conscious project :)
2016-03-01 19:47 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O nifty
2016-03-01 19:47 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, that's why I suggest to eliminate Q2
2016-03-01 19:48 <DocScrutinizer05> you prolly can eliminate a lot more of cruft when you switch complete power via EN
2016-03-01 19:48 <wpwrak> would be great if i can, yes. problem is a) polarity and b) possible voltage domain.
2016-03-01 19:48 <DocScrutinizer05> please elaborate, I'm thick
2016-03-01 19:49 <wpwrak> naw, i need Q1 in any case. especially since most boost converters don't block reverse current
2016-03-01 19:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I need a complete schematics
2016-03-01 19:50 <DocScrutinizer05> (don't block reverse) good point
2016-03-01 19:50 <wpwrak> yeah, update is still WIP. changing a bunch of things. and also drawing a nicer power tree
2016-03-01 19:50 <DocScrutinizer05> oh such fun to do a 20min real EE every 6 months
2016-03-01 19:51 <DocScrutinizer05> wish I could forget all the other mess with UG and do some for my device
2016-03-01 19:51 <wpwrak> hehe ;-)
2016-03-01 19:52 <DocScrutinizer05> how do you feed USB VBus?
2016-03-01 19:52 <DocScrutinizer05> directly to [powered]?
2016-03-01 19:52 <wpwrak> the joy to be "industriekapitaen" :)
2016-03-01 19:52 <DocScrutinizer05> FSCK!!!
2016-03-01 19:52 <DocScrutinizer05> Kapitaen of a dingi
2016-03-01 19:52 <wpwrak> [powered] is just an annotation, has no physical function
2016-03-01 19:53 <DocScrutinizer05> so to VBOOST then?
2016-03-01 19:53 <wpwrak> no, VBUS -> ESD -> VBUS_RAW
2016-03-01 19:53 <DocScrutinizer05> (makes more sense anyway)
2016-03-01 19:54 <wpwrak> then VBUS_RAW -> diode (to block reverse leakage from the regulator) -> LDO -> 3.3 V rail
2016-03-01 19:54 <wpwrak> ah yes, which is then = VBOOST
2016-03-01 19:54 <DocScrutinizer05> sure sure, VBUS_RAW fine, but where gets VBUS(_RAW) ... ahh wait you answered
2016-03-01 19:54 <wpwrak> before, i had something between 3.3 V and VBOOST. deleting the VBOOST label ...
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2016-03-01 19:55 <DocScrutinizer05> so 3V3 is your main power rail, right?
2016-03-01 19:55 <wpwrak> yes
2016-03-01 19:56 <DocScrutinizer05> and how's battery -> 3V3?
2016-03-01 19:57 <DocScrutinizer05> it looks a tad ... complicated
2016-03-01 19:58 <wpwrak> battery -> stuff under discussion -> boost -> 3V3
2016-03-01 19:58 <DocScrutinizer05> a second booster?
2016-03-01 19:58 <wpwrak> no, U1
2016-03-01 19:59 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, I gathered U1 is for USB VBOOST aka 5V0
2016-03-01 20:00 <wpwrak> noo !
2016-03-01 20:00 <wpwrak> i have an AAA primary cell. i need to boost it to 3.3 V
2016-03-01 20:00 <DocScrutinizer05> so VBOOST = 3V3 rail?
2016-03-01 20:00 <wpwrak> i don't supply USB host power. if you want USB host, welcome to the Y-cable
2016-03-01 20:00 <wpwrak> yes
2016-03-01 20:01 <DocScrutinizer05> please don't call it VBOOST :-) maybe it's just me, but VBOOST sounds like USB VBus hostmode
2016-03-01 20:01 <DocScrutinizer05> just call it 3V3
2016-03-01 20:02 <wpwrak> the label is already earmarked for deletion :) as i said, there was a FET after it (from an older design, with different characteristics), so it made sense to label the net. but now it's just 3V3.
2016-03-01 20:03 <DocScrutinizer05> oooookay. So let me suggest to use connect that 3V(3) LDO for VBus to VBat_safe
2016-03-01 20:03 <DocScrutinizer05> -use
2016-03-01 20:04 <wpwrak> that LDO output should be at ~3.3 V since this also supplies some 3.3 V domain items in the chip
2016-03-01 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> mhm, well, the booster should still work fine with Vin==Vout
2016-03-01 20:05 <wpwrak> (says the documentation. not entirely sure how much abuse would be possible there.)
2016-03-01 20:05 <wpwrak> yes, but the MCU might hate having its 3.3 V items at VBAT ;-)
2016-03-01 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
2016-03-01 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh#
2016-03-01 20:05 <wpwrak> besides, there may be non-negligible current between that and its real 3.3 V supply pins
2016-03-01 20:06 <wpwrak> yet another experiment i'd rather stay away from :)
2016-03-01 20:06 <DocScrutinizer05> add a FET like Q1 for VBus
2016-03-01 20:06 <wpwrak> i could of course add a dedicated LDO. might do that if i get really desperate ...
2016-03-01 20:07 <DocScrutinizer05> yet another one?
2016-03-01 20:07 <wpwrak> instead of the one in the MCU, so that it comes without strings attached
2016-03-01 20:07 <DocScrutinizer05> I already wonder if you could use a buck-boost converter instead of U1 and you'd not need any LDO
2016-03-01 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> you know, a step-up/down that allows Vin<Vout<Vin
2016-03-01 20:09 <DocScrutinizer05> of course such a critter shouldn't be enabled 24/7
2016-03-01 20:10 <wpwrak> hast to be on all the time. the system can't run at battery voltage
2016-03-01 20:10 <DocScrutinizer05> you prolly couldn't find one that works at almost zero power consumption in low-load/idle
2016-03-01 20:10 <DocScrutinizer05> the system doesn't need to run all the time
2016-03-01 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> which brings us back to the pushbutton
2016-03-01 20:11 <wpwrak> well, i could switch it in and out of battery change mode ...
2016-03-01 20:11 <wpwrak> but that adds a burden to an already tricky part
2016-03-01 20:12 <DocScrutinizer05> battery change mode?
2016-03-01 20:12 <wpwrak> when the MCU isolates itself and runs off silo caps
2016-03-01 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> ohmy, wouldn't it suffice to write an instruction manual that says: "battery change only while attached to USB"?
2016-03-01 20:13 <wpwrak> ;-)
2016-03-01 20:13 <wpwrak> might as well call it an iphone then :)
2016-03-01 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> ummm
2016-03-01 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't get it why you must keep RAM content
2016-03-01 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> or is there another reason to never power down the MCU?
2016-03-01 20:15 <wpwrak> yes, it's for the RTC
2016-03-01 20:15 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh
2016-03-01 20:15 <wpwrak> might also be nice to keep RAM, but i don't have a requirement for that at the time
2016-03-01 20:15 <DocScrutinizer05> well, as long as RTC is the only trouble, and that trouble is only during battery charge....
2016-03-01 20:15 <DocScrutinizer05> change, even
2016-03-01 20:16 <DocScrutinizer05> does the MCU have a real RTC, or is that a sw RTC?
2016-03-01 20:16 <wpwrak> loss of rtc can be painful. e.g., if using some time-based protocol
2016-03-01 20:17 <wpwrak> depends on the definition of "real" :) but there's a piece of silicon that says "RTC"
2016-03-01 20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, your sw can detect loss of correct time, and make time setting mandatory on power-up then
2016-03-01 20:18 <wpwrak> eek
2016-03-01 20:18 <wpwrak> blinking 00:00, VCR-style ? :)
2016-03-01 20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd consider that good enough when somebody really fails to change battery with USB attached, as recommended in manual
2016-03-01 20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, the RTC also needs 3N3 to keep time?
2016-03-01 20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> 3V3 even
2016-03-01 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> or does it have a proper BupBat input for a RTC-backup power supply?
2016-03-01 20:21 <wpwrak> no, that's why i can use the silo cap trick (or at least i hope it works, still to be tested)
2016-03-01 20:21 <wpwrak> nope, no separate power input
2016-03-01 20:21 <wpwrak> but the whole MCU can run at < 3.3 V
2016-03-01 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, but you could use Vbat (1V) during normal device power-down
2016-03-01 20:22 <wpwrak> i need >= 1.71 V
2016-03-01 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> :-(
2016-03-01 20:22 <wpwrak> it's always those little details :)
2016-03-01 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ffs
2016-03-01 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, all fun has to end. I need dinner
2016-03-01 20:23 <wpwrak> hmm yes, me soonish, too
2016-03-01 20:24 <wpwrak> ah, now i remember what the problem in gta01 was. system power was controlled by the modem. cpu has a signal to the modem for the "power button". during cpu power-down, that signal became uncontrolled, causing the "power button" to be "pressed", which in turn told the modem to power up again ...
2016-03-01 20:38 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, great¡ ;-D
2016-03-01 21:44 <enyc> funfun
2016-03-01 22:03 <roh> i remember some loop in i think gta02... where the suspend on the cpu glitched all gpios for reasons of not available versions of the pmu, which was fine for most of them besides the one line connecting to a transistor 'pressing' the 'test' button on the pmu of the modem. there were 2 of those transistors. one for the power button, one for test.
2016-03-01 22:04 <roh> so as soon as the cpu went asleep, the glitch happend and on the power button it was filtered out by hw debouncing, the test pin had none... ooops... so the modem woke up the cpu again via irq line
2016-03-01 22:17 <roh> i think the fix was to label the test-button-pressing-transistor 'dnp' ;)
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