2015-09-12 00:39 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2015-09-12 01:23 wildlander has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 2015-09-12 02:11 rjeffries has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 02:37 rjeffries has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2015-09-12 02:53 rjeffries has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 03:06 sb0 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2015-09-12 04:11 sandeepkr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2015-09-12 05:06 rjeffries has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2015-09-12 06:22 sb0 has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 06:54 hey DocScrutinizer05, does neo900 support UMTS/LTE bands in use in Hong Kong? 2015-09-12 06:55 that is, UMTS 850, UMTS 900, UMTS 2100 and LTE 1800, LTE 2300, LTE 2600 2015-09-12 06:55 ohh crap, the US/EU is an either-or and the modem is soldered down 2015-09-12 06:56 guess i am not getting one after all :/ 2015-09-12 06:57 whitequark: partially ... http://neo900.org/faq#networks 2015-09-12 06:58 yeah it's like... i foresee being in US, EU and HK a lot going forward and my current phone only had LTE in EU and EDGE in US and nothing in HK 2015-09-12 06:58 it was a deeply unpleasant experience 2015-09-12 06:59 to be fair, there are like twenty LTE bands and they're all over and it's an extreme clusterfuck 2015-09-12 06:59 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 07:01 yes, UTMS is bad, LTE worse. i love my GSM ;-) 2015-09-12 07:02 you do realize in many places it's not deployed anymore, right? 2015-09-12 07:02 HK has data over neither UMTS nor GSM 2015-09-12 07:02 US doesn't have data over GSM 2015-09-12 07:02 but telephony ? 2015-09-12 07:02 telephony, yes, I could not possibly care less about calls. I don't call people 2015-09-12 07:02 ah :) 2015-09-12 07:03 for several reasons, including: many of my peers don't disclose their cellular number bc of very practical privacy concerns 2015-09-12 07:03 for data, i use WLAN. data over telephony is usually economical suicide. 2015-09-12 07:03 if the data you transmit is mostly text... 2015-09-12 07:03 ah yes, reveal thy number and there will be a drone homing in on you soon ... 2015-09-12 07:04 or a bunch of angry gamers. but yes. 2015-09-12 07:18 http://wavedrom.com/ - when you need to daw clock diagrams 2015-09-12 07:27 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 07:43 sandeepkr has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 08:59 eintopf: cute :) 2015-09-12 09:47 wildlander has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 10:39 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2015-09-12 11:19 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 11:53 sandeepkr has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2015-09-12 12:30 sandeepkr has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 12:49 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 12:54 rodgort has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2015-09-12 13:07 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 13:25 rjeffries has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 15:24 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2015-09-12 15:25 WOW, never seen before: https://www.google.com/url?q=http://home.jeita.or.jp/page_file/20110517171451_cub9MvYFEh.pdf&sa=U&ved=0CBQQFjAAahUKEwjn1rOM5vHHAhWCShQKHbZ-BY4&usg=AFQjCNHB1q1Dueo14Cy3pBAGoQUb34Vuzg 2015-09-12 15:25 sorry 2015-09-12 15:26 http://home.jeita.or.jp/page_file/20110517171451_cub9MvYFEh.pdf 2015-09-12 15:26 LiIon generic safety requirements (also for dis/charging) form Japan $entity 2015-09-12 15:27 seems sorta authoritative 2015-09-12 15:33 krhrhrhr >> To prevent hot electrolyte steam emitted from a gas-releasing vent to be staying in the battery enclosure and to catch fire, it is imperative that an electrolyte steam outlet is prepared. Such outlet should be positioned to allow the steam emitted to be directed away from the user.<< 2015-09-12 15:35 ROTFL @ >> If the circuit board is provided with a storage device storing the operating status of the battery, arrange the board so that the storage device is located away from the cell. This is to ensure that the stored data is protected from the influence by the heat generated in the event of a battery fault.<< 2015-09-12 15:36 as if anybody would be interested in the stored status info of an exploded battery ;-P 2015-09-12 15:37 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 18:35 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2015-09-12 18:51 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2015-09-12 18:58 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2015-09-12 19:22 pcercuei has quit [Quit: leaving] 2015-09-12 19:53 actually, that would be useful when you do root cause analysis 2015-09-12 20:03 hmm, mildly 2015-09-12 20:04 you can tell charging status by strength of explosion ;-P 2015-09-12 20:05 anyway I don't see how this is a mandatory design requirement for all batteries 2015-09-12 20:05 on the same level of importance like first quote up there 2015-09-12 20:06 about electrolyte steam emitted 2015-09-12 20:07 they have a few more such quite reasonable requirements like thermal isolation between cells of battery, etc. I can't see how this nonsense to protect the status storage chip from overheating in case of fatal battery failure helps preventing the battery to fail 2015-09-12 20:07 or contributes to the security of that battery at large 2015-09-12 20:08 I am quite sure it is there to help doing RCA 2015-09-12 20:08 do batteries fail early in life? what was the min/max temperature? etc 2015-09-12 20:08 and these are just parameters any random charge controller will record, not even one specifically designed to be useful for RCA 2015-09-12 20:09 how's a battery supposed to even fail? all the other requirements are made to ensure it doesn't, in a way that would destroy anything 2015-09-12 20:10 it's a pretty silly requirement anyway 2015-09-12 20:10 left out in the sun? puncture? 2015-09-12 20:10 I won't send in such battery remnants for forensics to the battery manufacturer 2015-09-12 20:11 and battery manuf isn't interested in doing any forensics on them anyway 2015-09-12 20:11 that's assuming you already know the cause 2015-09-12 20:12 temp stats will allow to distinguish between those two 2015-09-12 20:13 ohmy, how's that an item for a generic battery saftety requirements whitepaper? 2015-09-12 20:13 I think anything that can fail and seriously injure someone /must/ be amenable to RCA of failure 2015-09-12 20:14 aha! so they should have made that chip mandatory 2015-09-12 20:14 that would make sense, yes 2015-09-12 20:14 in everything, not just batteries 2015-09-12 20:14 well, a PCB failing won't lead to that 2015-09-12 20:15 your shitty phone just stops to work. no big deal 2015-09-12 20:15 aha, even when that PCB is for example controlling your car engine or steering? 2015-09-12 20:16 no, sure not, cars fall into the same category as batteries 2015-09-12 20:16 yet nobody ever asked for such recording chips in the engine controller 2015-09-12 20:16 should've said "well, most PCBs failing won't lead to that" 2015-09-12 20:17 neither in the car battery which nowadays also often is LiIon 2015-09-12 20:17 huh? doesn't a LiIon car battery fall under the exact whitepaper you're citing? 2015-09-12 20:17 but yes, I would definitely expect a car /battery/ have such a facility, regardless of chemistry, and a car in general 2015-09-12 20:18 yes, however it usually doesn't have any such status recording chip I'd know of 2015-09-12 20:18 a car already has a shitton of sensors, and definitely you should log everything into a 'blackbox' 2015-09-12 20:18 it's supposed to work and nobody even cares about charging state 2015-09-12 20:18 I know for a fact some cars have pretty advanced blackboxes 2015-09-12 20:18 that include things like hydraulic pressure, steering position, engine stats and yes battery charge 2015-09-12 20:19 tzz, never seen a car battery with more than 2 poles 2015-09-12 20:19 oh, you mean a lead-acid battery in a non-electric car 2015-09-12 20:19 so yes, your car blackbox might record the voltage of battery 2015-09-12 20:19 those don't really fail hazardously, do they? except in a collision or something, where all bets are loose 2015-09-12 20:20 exactly, they are supposed to work and nobody cares if it's lead acid or LiIon 2015-09-12 20:20 well no there is a large difference 2015-09-12 20:20 LiIon supports a runaway reaction that leads to explosion, lead acid doesn't 2015-09-12 20:21 LiFePO4 also doesn't and you know what? there is no limitation on amount of LiFePO4 batteries you can take or ship in an aircraft 2015-09-12 20:21 exactly because of that 2015-09-12 20:21 yes, and still no external monitoring and most likely no internal monitoring and recording either. They simply are supposed to work and never ever fail 2015-09-12 20:22 sure 2015-09-12 20:22 that's consistent with everything I said above I think? 2015-09-12 20:22 well, when you mix stuff then yes. I talked about LiIon, not LiFePo 2015-09-12 20:23 then let me summarize: LiFePO4, lead acid don't fail hazardously, no monitoring. LiIon does, has to have monitoring 2015-09-12 20:23 seems right to me? 2015-09-12 20:24 my point stands: it's silly to require a disaster-hardened recorder chip without making that recorder chip a mandatory feature to start with 2015-09-12 20:24 oh, yes 2015-09-12 20:24 it doesn't? 2015-09-12 20:25 >>**If the circuit board is provided** with a storage device storing the operating status of the battery, arrange the board so that the storage device is located away from the cell.<< 2015-09-12 20:26 oh 2015-09-12 20:26 well that's just... bullshit 2015-09-12 20:26 and that in a generic wqhitepaper about battery security requirements 2015-09-12 20:27 exactly, just bullshit 2015-09-12 20:28 some dude had a momentary hiccup 2015-09-12 20:29 or rather cerbral brownout 2015-09-12 20:30 hehe 2015-09-12 20:31 it's a 'nice to have' at best, at the discretion of the particular battery manuf 2015-09-12 20:32 "dear designer, when you already add a recorder to your battery, consider added benefit fron placing it in a position where it will survive disasters. You'll love the forensic options it offers" 2015-09-12 20:33 that's stuff for an EE 101 book, not for a generic semi-official whitepaper about security requerements 2015-09-12 20:35 or maybe they meant "battery failure" == simple overtemperature, where the battery could recover from. And you wouldn't want such "failure" to damage the status recorder and that causing secondary induced disaster 2015-09-12 20:36 hmmm 2015-09-12 20:36 I'd imagine anything that kills the IC or even the flex cable will destroy the battery very well 2015-09-12 20:36 it's well over 100 and even 150 2015-09-12 20:36 however that's already covered by their other policies, like "no single point of failure" 2015-09-12 20:37 wait, what 2015-09-12 20:37 how the fuck does that work 2015-09-12 20:37 yep 2015-09-12 20:37 I'm not sure I have ever seen a battery satisfying that design 2015-09-12 20:37 requirement 2015-09-12 20:37 maybe those larger car ones, I dunno, definitely not in small electronics 2015-09-12 20:38 no single fault fail? 2015-09-12 20:38 yeah 2015-09-12 20:38 oh, or do they mean like 2015-09-12 20:38 all devices are supposed to have at least 2 independant security means 2015-09-12 20:38 "you need both a temperature sensor AND an overcurrent sensor failure"? 2015-09-12 20:39 no, they mean "when FET in electronic security fails, there still needs to be a blowfuse to kick in" 2015-09-12 20:39 ah alright 2015-09-12 20:40 no single point of failure scenarios 2015-09-12 20:40 that can't get handled by another subsystem 2015-09-12 20:41 in the usual smartphone you have at least 3 independant security mechanisms 2015-09-12 20:42 the standard high level charger, plus a electrinics and a PTC or whatever in the battery itself 2015-09-12 20:42 often the phone also has an additional fuse in batery rail 2015-09-12 20:43 cheap chinese chargers rely entirely on the electronics in battery to avoid overcharging 2015-09-12 20:43 yeah I've seen those 2015-09-12 20:43 which is a damn poor design 2015-09-12 20:44 one of them was USB5V connected via a diode 2015-09-12 20:44 great! ;-P 2015-09-12 20:45 I've seen one charger that literally consisted of a plastic case, two springs for battery, two steel poles for mains jack, two capacitors and a Graetz bridge 2015-09-12 20:46 *nothing else* 2015-09-12 20:46 the capacitors form a divider? 2015-09-12 20:46 series impedance for both mains poles 2015-09-12 20:46 SERIES?! 2015-09-12 20:47 basically you had Live voltage on both battery contacts, mitigated by a series 1uF or something 2015-09-12 20:48 yeah that's so fucked up 2015-09-12 20:48 I really thought that must be a bad joke or something 2015-09-12 20:49 that's depressing 2015-09-12 20:50 for such "charger" any battery internal electronics will fail epically since they can't cope with dunno 110V or even 230V 2015-09-12 20:51 I guess that crap must have been 19 pence on some chinese "whatever you search for, here you'll find it" shop or market 2015-09-12 20:52 and the guy who designed and marketed that crap maybe killed a few dozen people with it, but for sure made a million and had no problems whatsoever 2015-09-12 20:54 I bet same shop sold a plug with cable with two blank wire ends as a water heater 2015-09-12 20:55 you can put an unsafe razor blade between those. some people legit make heaters like that 2015-09-12 20:55 "to speed up cooking, add some salt to water" 2015-09-12 20:55 now it's sharp, hot AND under voltage 2015-09-12 20:56 called "Moped" in german jail 2015-09-12 20:56 why? 2015-09-12 20:56 dunno 2015-09-12 20:56 tobacco is caled "Koffer" 2015-09-12 20:57 seems they have a special language in jail 2015-09-12 20:57 yeah, jail jargon 2015-09-12 20:57 or more like prison 2015-09-12 20:57 does 'normal' german have a lot of loanwords from prison jargon? 2015-09-12 20:58 hmm, I probably can't know, but I also don't know of many 2015-09-12 20:58 russian sure does. not surprising given the amount of people who were in camps. 1/3 of population at some point, I think 2015-09-12 20:58 maybe formerly "Heierman" for a 5 DM coin 2015-09-12 20:58 and a good deal of those loanwords are now just everyday words 2015-09-12 20:59 in certain social groups it's naturally a lot more 2015-09-12 21:00 I mean like middle class 2015-09-12 21:00 those groups that form outside of prison but all the members are highly likely to end in prison eventually 2015-09-12 21:01 I just wonder where the heck they get razorblades in prison 2015-09-12 21:01 sounds like the last thing I'd make available in prison 2015-09-12 21:02 smuggle inside by using body color band-aid to tape it to your body? 2015-09-12 21:02 dunno 2015-09-12 21:02 well, that's the apocryphal story 2015-09-12 21:03 things get smuggled into prisons all the time 2015-09-12 21:04 never been in real prison, only several weeks in "Untersuchungshaft" when they arrested hundreds of people who happened to be wrong place wrong time 2015-09-12 21:04 detention 2015-09-12 21:04 yea 2015-09-12 21:06 I was evidently the one person who arrived there late and so wasn't involved in the reason of mass detention. And I was the last to go free since what I said had happened was "impossible to have happened" according to police :-S 2015-09-12 21:07 ugh 2015-09-12 21:09 so everybody who said "yes, I joined that demo but I didn't throw stones" went free. While I said "I wasn't on the demo and enetered the building when it was already surrounded by police" had no plausible alibi 2015-09-12 21:09 shit happens ;-) 2015-09-12 21:10 lesson: don't tell truth to authority, tell them what they want to hear :p 2015-09-12 21:10 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massenverhaftung_von_Nürnberg 2015-09-12 21:16 (lesson) yes, usually that works. In this particular context however I knew of only one thing they wanted to hear: "Yes, I'm a terrorist" 2015-09-12 21:17 I think they paid me 5DM per day of that 4 weeks illegal detention, after a year and some 2015-09-12 21:18 4 weeks! wtf 2015-09-12 21:18 toldya, I was the last to go free 2015-09-12 21:19 except those few they actually knew were throwing stones 2015-09-12 21:22 http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-14318869.html 2015-09-12 21:49 anyway since then I have my very own take on politics and state 2015-09-12 21:49 and a somewhat fraught relation to police 2015-09-12 21:52 not like this came out of thin air, situation and (political) mood been similar before and after the "detention of 141", and I didn't exactly love police before that already 2015-09-12 22:52 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]