2015-07-28 00:39 fengling_ has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 00:44 fengling_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2015-07-28 01:25 wildlander has quit [Quit: Saliendo] 2015-07-28 01:42 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2015-07-28 01:45 fengling has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 01:49 fengling has quit [Client Quit] 2015-07-28 01:52 fengling has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 01:52 fengling has quit [Client Quit] 2015-07-28 01:53 fengling has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 01:56 fengling has quit [Client Quit] 2015-07-28 01:58 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 02:10 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 02:17 fengling has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 05:12 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 05:26 xiangfu: heya ! question: you still have those anelok boards you've made, right ? 2015-07-28 05:33 Yes 2015-07-28 05:33 anelok is on my TODO list and Desk. 2015-07-28 05:33 :) 2015-07-28 05:37 hehe, great ! :) i was thinking that the ccc-camp may be a place with some potential for attracting developers, and some may have use for one of these board 2015-07-28 05:40 if you could send the boards you don't need for yourself to someone who can bring them to the camp, i could then give boards to any worthy developers i may meet there 2015-07-28 05:41 and if any are left, i could send them to dave ball in the UK who could then take care of further shipments 2015-07-28 05:42 does that sounds good ? if yes, then i'll ask around if i can find someone in europe who goes to the camp and who would be willing to receive them 2015-07-28 06:03 arhuaco has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2015-07-28 06:16 arhuaco has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 06:59 * DocScrutinizer05 looks around, then hides ;-P 2015-07-28 07:12 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 07:18 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2015-07-28 07:42 wpwrak: sounds good. 2015-07-28 07:43 wpwrak: Yes. 2015-07-28 07:46 I have three right now 2015-07-28 07:47 three that you can send or three in total, including the ones you use yourself ? 2015-07-28 07:47 I have four in total. 2015-07-28 07:47 three I can send out. 2015-07-28 07:48 wpwrak: could we try giving one a Galden sauna on camp? ;-) 2015-07-28 07:48 DocScrutinizer05: still hiding ? you would make an ideal candidate :) 1) you already received (a) shipment(s) from xiangfu, 2) you're coming to the camp, and 3) it's rather unlikely that we won't run into each other there :) 2015-07-28 07:48 (galden) sounds destructive 2015-07-28 07:48 hard to argue :-) 2015-07-28 07:49 nah, *constructive* literally, for a new one 2015-07-28 07:49 DocScrutinizer05: so is it okay if xiangfu sends them to you ? 2015-07-28 07:49 sure 2015-07-28 07:50 great, thanks ! 2015-07-28 07:50 though I definitely would prefer them getting sent by normal letter rather than that customs stuff 2015-07-28 07:50 xiangfu: we have our importer ;-) i guess the shipping is fairly quick, isn't it ? 2015-07-28 07:51 I can sent it right now. :) 2015-07-28 07:51 by DHL. 2015-07-28 07:51 DocScrutinizer05: normal letters go through customs, too. now that everyone knows your EORI, things may actually be smoother now 2015-07-28 07:51 no, not much 2015-07-28 07:52 atually this one will be a nightmare since I can't prove any value, no matter how 2015-07-28 07:52 can't they do the formalities directly now ? 2015-07-28 07:53 when I ordered stuff like bare N900 PCB they arrived in a fairly normal letter, without any customs involved 2015-07-28 07:53 "prototype" :) they must have some way to handle self-made things. e.g., what if your grandmother sends you self-knitted socks ? 2015-07-28 07:54 alas such letters take up to two months 2015-07-28 07:54 well, maybe taping them on a PCB and then using a padded envelope may work. they's a bit fragile with OLED and FPC hanging off the PCB 2015-07-28 07:55 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 07:56 meh. s/they's/they're/ 2015-07-28 07:56 I think up to 25 Eur are free of charge re customs 2015-07-28 07:57 alas I never checked details of such parcels I found in my letterbox or my neighbors received for me 2015-07-28 07:58 one thing's for sure: add my EORY and it will be DHL handling it the commercial way with customs and charging me the nominal fee 2015-07-28 08:01 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 08:02 EUR 22: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Sendungen-mit-geringem-Wert/sendungen-mit-geringem-wert_node.html 2015-07-28 08:02 probably sending them the most usual way and filing papers for a 3 pcs foobar a 4.99EUR = 14.97 total will work best 2015-07-28 08:05 >>Entscheidend ist, welcher Betrag tatsächlich gezahlt wurde, um die Ware zu erhalten. << 2015-07-28 08:05 it's pretty hard to show an invoice / payment of zilch EUR 2015-07-28 08:07 small packages with correctly filed papers stating a value of 5, 10 or 15 EUR usually work best 2015-07-28 08:08 ideally "payment after shipping" 2015-07-28 08:09 3*1.98 2015-07-28 08:10 and pack them in a way so customs may open them ans see them in a bag without messing with, and breaking them 2015-07-28 08:12 any standard goods type declaration will do, the type used for dunno electronic components or whatever 2015-07-28 08:13 3*1.98 may be a bit on the low side for a circuit with an display clearly hanging off it 2015-07-28 08:14 they have no damn clue 2015-07-28 08:15 make it 5.89 then 2015-07-28 08:18 http://www.aliexpress.com/item/RF-wireless-receiver-module-transmitter-module-board-for-arduino-super-regeneration-315-433MHZ-DC5V-ASK-OOK/1620400987.html 2015-07-28 08:20 of course the customs never will believe somebody sends stuff for a total cost of 16 bucks, when the DHL shipping alone is known to cost 20 2015-07-28 08:21 shipping cost is not included in customs value 2015-07-28 08:21 it is 2015-07-28 08:22 and it's highly unlikely that you buy a 15 EUR value of goods shipped in a parcel that costs 25 2015-07-28 08:22 ummm, no it's not 2015-07-28 08:22 seems that it depends in this case: if you're billed for the shipping, shipping value is included. else, not 2015-07-28 08:22 e.g. fedex: http://www.canadacustomer.fedex.com/ca_english/customsguide/declaredvalue.html 2015-07-28 08:22 who cares about canada? 2015-07-28 08:23 (unlikely) e.g., letters are often sent by courier. the "commercial value" of a few sheets of paper tends to be pretty low ;-) 2015-07-28 08:23 oh 2015-07-28 08:23 https://smallbusiness.fedex.com/international/country-snapshots/germany.html 2015-07-28 08:23 MEH 2015-07-28 08:23 so in germany, it is included 2015-07-28 08:23 https://smallbusiness.fedex.com/international/country-snapshots/germany.html 2015-07-28 08:23 er 2015-07-28 08:23 The value to declare for customs purposes is the price paid or payable for the goods, including any selling commissions, assists, royalties, packing and proceeds. It does not include freight and insurance charges. 2015-07-28 08:24 I know 2015-07-28 08:24 I thought it would be uniform. silly, I guess 2015-07-28 08:24 either way, I ship shit that costs less than delivery cost all the time 2015-07-28 08:24 and the customs get pissed when you tell them you paid 15 bucks for the parcel and they know for good that fedex or DHL charged sender a 20 for the shipping 2015-07-28 08:24 usually from auctions 2015-07-28 08:25 don't really have a choice there unless i want seller to combine 2015-07-28 08:25 and have something i want it to be combined with 2015-07-28 08:25 which is not usually the case 2015-07-28 08:25 whitequark: that's irrelevant 2015-07-28 08:26 even wehn the goods are 0.68 the seller will not charge me 0.68 but 0.68 plus shipping 2015-07-28 08:26 ohh right 2015-07-28 08:26 since it's included. 2015-07-28 08:26 and for customs that's 20.68 then 2015-07-28 08:26 yeah you're right 2015-07-28 08:27 and when I try to tell them I paid less than seller paid for parcel, they will tell me to go fuck myself 2015-07-28 08:28 but these are gifts from a friend. not stuff bought from a .cn shop. do your friends normally charge you for shipping when they send you gifts ? :) 2015-07-28 08:28 that's where stuff gets *really* nasty 2015-07-28 08:29 it may be difficult to explain, yes :) 2015-07-28 08:29 it's difficult to *prove* 2015-07-28 08:29 and they see this sort of fraud 50000 times a day 2015-07-28 08:29 :) 2015-07-28 08:30 our customs just don't give a fuck unless it's over $2k or so 2015-07-28 08:31 once it's over $2k though, you will be told to get fucked in so many ways 2015-07-28 08:31 as I have recently discovered, an US org cannot express ship to a RU citizen in any circumstances whatsoever 2015-07-28 08:31 the law does not define when that is permitted. 2015-07-28 08:32 here it's fine as long as it's plausible and no pills or drugs, and <22EUR 2015-07-28 08:32 and that's not even $2k, a $100 devboard 2015-07-28 08:32 interestingly, the exact same thing sent using *registerd* post doesn't raise a brow 2015-07-28 08:34 wpwrak: I think we're in a pinch with either DHL and fast delivery but delay at customs, or "normal surface deliver mail" (aka letter) which will not even see customs but will take 4 to 12 weeks 2015-07-28 08:34 air mail ? 2015-07-28 08:36 well, "china post ordinary small packet plus" Estimated delivery 15-34days 2015-07-28 08:36 that's pretty much a lottery 2015-07-28 08:36 sometimes arrives in 10, sometimes in 60 2015-07-28 08:36 yep 2015-07-28 08:36 doesn't the EUR 22 rule apply to DHL, too ? 2015-07-28 08:37 yep 2015-07-28 08:37 incl shipping 2015-07-28 08:37 the page i found suggests that this depends on whether the pro forma invoice includes shipping or not 2015-07-28 08:38 no idea how much they charge for a parcel like that. Probably enough so they per default pipe everything through customs 2015-07-28 08:38 for courier, shipping ought to be > EUR 22 2015-07-28 08:38 wpwrak: I already elaborated in epic length that customs are not idiots 2015-07-28 08:39 when they see a DHL parcel they know what's the shipping cost. And they generally won't accept total value of parcel being lower than that 2015-07-28 08:39 so if www.zoll.de says that it depends on the invoice, you're saying they're lying ? 2015-07-28 08:40 yes 2015-07-28 08:40 meh 2015-07-28 08:40 I'm fed up 2015-07-28 08:41 I say they tell me you are lying 2015-07-28 08:41 writing an invoice is cheap, and done for fraud purposes a 50000 times a day 2015-07-28 08:41 me ? 2015-07-28 08:42 yes, you, when you wrote the invoice 2015-07-28 08:42 ah 2015-07-28 08:43 well, in argentina they require a sworn declaration from the recipient. so they have a statement from someone they can hurt 2015-07-28 08:43 they might have no clue about electronics, but they know their business and trade shit 2015-07-28 08:43 yes, but in this case, there's actually nobody trying to cheat 2015-07-28 08:44 yeah, and you think I visit a lawyer to get that paper? sorry, won't happen 2015-07-28 08:44 naw, you'd make that declaration at customs 2015-07-28 08:45 no I won't. they want to see papers 2015-07-28 08:45 well, at least here it works like this. you make it online, they calculate the import fees, you pay them, then hope for the best 2015-07-28 08:45 do waht you likwe. I tell you I won't try to bring a fake invoice to prove how much I paid 2015-07-28 08:45 well, never mind. i'll see if i can find someone else. 2015-07-28 08:46 do you think somebody else can cheat customs? 2015-07-28 08:46 good luck 2015-07-28 08:46 nobody is trying to cheat customs here ... 2015-07-28 08:47 just the standard procedure with pro forma invoice (since it's not an actual sale) 2015-07-28 08:49 last parcel from xiangfu was fun to pick up at customs since I could show those guys a similar device offered on ebay, for a 60 bucks 2015-07-28 08:49 iirc 2015-07-28 08:50 or was that the single N900 some other guy sent to me 2015-07-28 08:50 yes, that helps of course 2015-07-28 08:51 no, this was _the last resort_ 2015-07-28 08:51 since I couldn't show an order or a paypal/wiretransfer payment to prove the value 2015-07-28 08:53 and what value did they suggest to use ? 2015-07-28 08:53 for the speakers they completely ignored the fake invoice 2015-07-28 08:54 well, they can do that :) 2015-07-28 08:54 luckily I had a payment to show them, and a correspondence 2015-07-28 08:54 and it was hard enough to convince them to accept those "documents" 2015-07-28 08:56 just telling you when you write an invoice, don't forget to add realistic shipping cost, and decalre the goods accordingly so customs has no problem finding the drawer for that class of goods 2015-07-28 08:57 then when it's < 22 EUR we might be lucky 2015-07-28 08:58 maybe "prototypes for exhibition, advertising item free of charge" may actually fly, I dunno 2015-07-28 08:59 "shipping: paid by sender" 2015-07-28 09:01 and aiui there's even an option where sender pays all customs and taxes due 2015-07-28 09:01 this arrives flawlessly, at least when e.g. Nokia ships that stuff 2015-07-28 09:01 or Openmoko 2015-07-28 09:01 just to be clear: this is what they look like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/xiangfu/anelok/tmp/Anelok-front.jpg 2015-07-28 09:02 that's highly irrelevant 2015-07-28 09:02 not much risk of confusing them with some standard mass market product 2015-07-28 09:03 there are no special taxes for mass market products 2015-07-28 09:04 can't you just send them as "samples"? these are sometimes exempt from duty 2015-07-28 09:04 Ornotermes has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2015-07-28 09:05 "free samples" or "prototypes" or "for exhibition" or whatever 2015-07-28 09:05 it's only relevant what receiver actually paid 2015-07-28 09:06 and if I could prove that so they believe it 2015-07-28 09:08 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2015-07-28 09:09 I *think* when they are told you didn't pay since it's a (commercial) give-away, they can guess the value 2015-07-28 09:10 careful with "samples": http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Pruefungs-und-Analysezwecke/pruefungs-und-analysezwecke_node.html 2015-07-28 09:14 >>Ausgeschlossen von der Befreiung sind Waren in den Fällen, in denen die vorgesehenen Prüfungsmaßnahmen vordergründig zu Zwecken der Absatzförderung (z.B. Werbung) durchgeführt werden, z.B. um den Umsatz für ein bereits im Handel befindliches Erzeugnis durch deren Erprobung zu verbessern. Hier kommt evtl. eine Zollbefreiung nach den Bestimmungen für Warenmuster und Warenproben in Betracht.<< 2015-07-28 09:15 but as long as you can avoid that trap, there is http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html 2015-07-28 09:15 but in any case, the simplest approach seems to be to declare them as gifts and send them to a private address: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Post-Internet/Sendungen-aus-einem-Nicht-EU-Staat/Zoll-und-Steuern/Geschenksendungen/geschenksendungen_node.html 2015-07-28 09:16 that's your regulation: http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Absatzfoerderung/Warenmuster-und-proben/warenmuster-und-proben_node.html 2015-07-28 09:16 note "unterliegen keinen Zollförmlichkeiten" 2015-07-28 09:16 all the rest is more complex. e.g., samples: "elektronischen oder schriftlichen Zollanmeldung" 2015-07-28 09:17 yeah, so what I said: *please* don't give my EORI! 2015-07-28 09:17 you regularly don't write EORI on a private gift 2015-07-28 09:17 EORI would be the UG. yes, that would be bad then 2015-07-28 09:18 and probably you want to write the addr sticker by hand then 2015-07-28 09:19 and generally don't use "commercial" packaging 2015-07-28 09:24 both sender and receiver must be natural private persons 2015-07-28 09:26 a letter wouldn't hurt "Hi Joerg, those are the ANELOKs for Werner's welcome gift that I made for him" or sth like that 2015-07-28 09:27 that's a pretty easily proofable story 2015-07-28 09:28 I can even show off your flight ticket 2015-07-28 10:07 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2015-07-28 10:26 Ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 10:38 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2015-07-28 10:47 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 11:06 atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2015-07-28 11:14 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 11:15 atommann has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2015-07-28 13:18 ccnnjj has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2015-07-28 14:29 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 15:15 ccnnjj has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 15:26 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2015-07-28 15:50 wildlander has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 16:00 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 16:12 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2015-07-28 16:18 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2015-07-28 16:32 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 16:37 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2015-07-28 17:01 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 17:06 http://www.excamera.com/sphinx/article-j1a-swapforth.html 2015-07-28 18:45 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2015-07-28 18:59 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 19:16 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 20:10 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 20:35 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2015-07-28 20:49 jwhitmore has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2015-07-28 20:51 jwhitmore has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 22:12 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2015-07-28 22:31 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2015-07-28 23:16 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2015-07-28 23:40 wildlander has quit [Quit: Saliendo]