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2015-06-14 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> interesting module/EVB: http://www.globalstar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=23&products_id=81
2015-06-14 14:12 <whitequark> ooh neat
2015-06-14 14:13 <eintopf> the question is, can you put it into the neo900?
2015-06-14 14:13 <eintopf> and the other question is, will it blend?
2015-06-14 14:13 <eintopf> :-)
2015-06-14 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.globalstar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=22&products_id=108
2015-06-14 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> simplex upstream
2015-06-14 14:22 <wpwrak> standby 0.5 W typical. oh dear !
2015-06-14 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, of course
2015-06-14 14:28 <DocScrutinizer05> you hardly can find much better for sat communications
2015-06-14 14:28 <DocScrutinizer05> well, their phones are allegedly 2 days standby
2015-06-14 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> but then I wonder what "standby" means for a device that requires unfolding and extending the antenna before it can enter active mode
2015-06-14 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> generally sat phones are not really meant to _receive_ calls
2015-06-14 14:30 <wpwrak> btw, philae is back ! (article in german) http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Hallo-vom-Kometen-Lander-Philae-meldet-sich-zurueck-2690194.html
2015-06-14 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> HAH!
2015-06-14 14:32 <whitequark> I wonder if the .5W are for something like TCXO
2015-06-14 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I don't think they are that pciky about their clock frequency
2015-06-14 14:37 <DocScrutinizer05> it's rather simply continuous mode RX, not optimized by any sleep modes or similar
2015-06-14 14:38 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders what been GTA02/calypso power rating when applying sleep=0 #1024 bug work around
2015-06-14 14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> https://totalueberwachung.de/blog/category/openmoko
2015-06-14 14:45 <DocScrutinizer05> so you could guess like: battery capacity ~4Wh, 6-8h of standby without proper deep-sleep => 0.5W
2015-06-14 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> no need for a crystal heating to burn power ;-)
2015-06-14 14:46 <eintopf> I remember my old smartphone, when I did to turn on the GPS it was extremely hot
2015-06-14 14:47 <eintopf> and my current smartphone, when it's hot _or_ cold then touchscreen doesn't work
2015-06-14 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> wl1251 wlan chipset in AP scan mode (which forbids any powersaving (aka deepsleep) mode) also is known to be a terrible power hog
2015-06-14 14:47 <eintopf> I think, I need a neo900
2015-06-14 14:48 <DocScrutinizer05> hurry, we might have no more available for preorder at end of month ;-)
2015-06-14 14:49 <eintopf> :O
2015-06-14 14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> kidding aside, we might want to start N900 sourcing next month, and it's highly questionable if we could source further N900 for late customers
2015-06-14 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> when you only want a NeoN board to upgrade your own N900, don't worry
2015-06-14 14:51 <eintopf> I don't have a N900
2015-06-14 14:51 <DocScrutinizer05> then your deadline is more relaxed
2015-06-14 14:51 <eintopf> I have a motorola milestone
2015-06-14 14:51 <eintopf> and now one without a keyboard and I want my keyboard back
2015-06-14 14:51 <eintopf> 480 eur is a little bit too expensive for me :/
2015-06-14 14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> that's even only a down payment
2015-06-14 14:52 <eintopf> then wpwrak will kill me, I should buy a frequency spectrum analyzer for that money
2015-06-14 14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O spectrum analyzer? what for?
2015-06-14 14:53 <eintopf> 802.15.4 stuff
2015-06-14 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmmm
2015-06-14 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I doubt *I* could properly use a spectrum analyzer for such stuff
2015-06-14 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> also isn't that 2.4GHz?
2015-06-14 14:54 <wpwrak> yup, 2.4 GHz
2015-06-14 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder where you get which spectrum analyzer for 480 bucks that can do 2.4GHz
2015-06-14 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> and provide useful readouts
2015-06-14 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> get a RTL2032 ;-)
2015-06-14 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> 15bucks
2015-06-14 14:55 <eintopf> http://www.aaronia.com/products/spectrum-analyzers/HF-2025E-V3-Low-Cost-Spectrum-Analyzer/
2015-06-14 14:55 <whitequark> can't you lower it from 2.4GHz to some IF and then use something with a few tens of MHz of bandwidth?
2015-06-14 14:55 <eintopf> that's what wpwrak told me
2015-06-14 14:55 <wpwrak> a wee bit more expensive: http://www.aaronia.com/products/spectrum-analyzers/HF-2025E-V3-Low-Cost-Spectrum-Analyzer/
2015-06-14 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly just as good for the purpose you faintly mentioned
2015-06-14 14:56 <wpwrak> heh :)
2015-06-14 14:57 <eintopf> I google RTL2032 and got results for a stick which helps me to put my clothes on
2015-06-14 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> oops 2832 sorry
2015-06-14 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> http://hdsdr.de/RTLSDR_with_HDSDR.pdf
2015-06-14 14:59 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.adafruit.com/products/1497
2015-06-14 14:59 <DocScrutinizer05> mmmph, 1850MHz
2015-06-14 14:59 <eintopf> mhh, if this device can do 2.4 Ghz spectrum of 802.15.4 then I could put a firmware on which implements 802.15.4 standard and using it as a transceiver?
2015-06-14 15:00 <eintopf> or is the modulation differs, or that doesn't matter?
2015-06-14 15:00 <DocScrutinizer05> it's RX only
2015-06-14 15:00 <eintopf> ah
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2015-06-14 15:00 <DocScrutinizer05> it provides I/Q digital data via USB
2015-06-14 15:01 <eintopf> I thought I could make atusb2
2015-06-14 15:01 <eintopf> with open firmware
2015-06-14 15:01 <eintopf> and atusb protocol ;-)
2015-06-14 15:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I *guess* you could use a cheap analog sat receiver for forntend as well
2015-06-14 15:02 <eintopf> you want to tell me now, that when I have some LNB and an analog receiver and I set the frequency to the right. Then I can see some patterns in the "analog snow screen" ?
2015-06-14 15:02 <eintopf> from my 802.15.4 transceiver
2015-06-14 15:03 <eintopf> I do some transmitting then
2015-06-14 15:03 * eintopf can't believe that
2015-06-14 15:04 <eintopf> so analog tv is about  950−2150 MHz
2015-06-14 15:05 <eintopf> 950 - 2150
2015-06-14 15:05 <DocScrutinizer05> http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr
2015-06-14 15:05 <eintopf> and my transceivers are 2405 - 2480
2015-06-14 15:09 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.rtl-sdr.com/
2015-06-14 15:09 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, I already noticed it's a 300MHz off
2015-06-14 15:19 <DocScrutinizer05> awesome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k2ZuhAz0ac
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2015-06-14 15:52 <DocScrutinizer05> eintopf: yep, analog sat receivers have a IF of 950−2150 MHz
2015-06-14 15:53 <eintopf> ok
2015-06-14 15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway I wonder why you need a spectrum analyzer for those 802.15.4
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2015-06-14 15:54 <eintopf> determine xtal trims, I am not an expert. But the xtal pins of the transceiver has the feature to set the pin capacity
2015-06-14 15:55 <eintopf> they doing PLL and then I can set these capacity pins to the right value, when I see the result
2015-06-14 15:56 <eintopf> that's I think how it works, this is what wpwrak teach me :/
2015-06-14 15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> you need a frequency counter for this, or a very precise receiver, not a spectrum analyser
2015-06-14 16:00 <eintopf> but when I see the spectrum I can see the piek
2015-06-14 16:00 <eintopf> and the piek should be something like the frequency and around is some gauss curve
2015-06-14 16:01 <DocScrutinizer05> huh? no, it should not have any gauss curve
2015-06-14 16:01 <eintopf> a gauss curve and a piek in the frequeceny which is set
2015-06-14 16:01 <eintopf> mhh
2015-06-14 16:01 <eintopf> then only a piek in the middle where the frequency is set the rest is random
2015-06-14 16:01 <DocScrutinizer05> a gauss curve or the like would be seen by modulated signals
2015-06-14 16:02 <eintopf> it's modulated
2015-06-14 16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> which create sideband frequencies
2015-06-14 16:02 <eintopf> QPSK or something
2015-06-14 16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> the xtal frequency is NOT modulated
2015-06-14 16:02 <eintopf> yea, but I cannot touch the pins inside the transceiver
2015-06-14 16:03 <eintopf> then I need to listen to the frequency and the real result
2015-06-14 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> even then you're simply not interested in that gauss curve, any arbitrary frequency counter will already pick up the "peek" for you
2015-06-14 16:06 <DocScrutinizer05> you say you need a spectrum analyzer to show the sidebands so you can ignore them, that's a tad awkward approach
2015-06-14 16:06 <eintopf> Then I could use maybe a atmega32 and use it as frequency counter
2015-06-14 16:06 <DocScrutinizer05> for 2.4GHz hardly
2015-06-14 16:07 <eintopf> it's PLL
2015-06-14 16:07 <eintopf> there is some 16 Mhz crystal
2015-06-14 16:07 <eintopf> can I not check this frequency?
2015-06-14 16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> but you should be able to touch one of the two XTAL pins of the chip with a high impedance probe
2015-06-14 16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> or even couple inductively to the RF emission of the xtal
2015-06-14 16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> the XTAL1/2 pins are output and input basically
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2015-06-14 16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> you probably can touch the output without detuning the xtal oscillator too much, when you use e.g. a 10MOhm scope probe
2015-06-14 16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> but honestly why do you worry that much about exact tuning? just tune your one receiver so it works fine with the peer transmitter, so both use same (possibly not totally correct) frequency
2015-06-14 16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> you only worry about absolute correct frequency when building a 1000 or a million devices and all should be inter-operable with each other
2015-06-14 16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and possibly even to 2nd source devices not built by you
2015-06-14 16:12 <DocScrutinizer05> or you worry when you need to pass approvals my FCC and the likes
2015-06-14 16:12 <DocScrutinizer05> s/my/by/
2015-06-14 16:12 <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "or you worry when you need to pass approvals by FCC and the likes"
2015-06-14 16:15 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry when I'm assuming (e.g. existence of external xtal and XTAL1(2 pins on chip) and your situation looks different. I have no info what you actually do and what's your circuit
2015-06-14 16:16 <DocScrutinizer05> but generally for adjusting frequency you don't use a spectrum analyzer
2015-06-14 16:16 <DocScrutinizer05> you may, when you already have one
2015-06-14 16:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and when the one you have is calibrated and pretty exact
2015-06-14 16:18 <DocScrutinizer05> for your average dirt cheap spectrum analyzer (500 bucks) odds are your own DIY circuit is more precisely tuned to the target frequency than the SA's internal reference clock
2015-06-14 16:21 <DocScrutinizer05> take a shortwafe radio, tune it to 16MHz and see if you can pick up the XTAL signal
2015-06-14 16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> if you're lucky you may create interference with a nearby (in freq) broadcast station, and form the pitch/freq of resulting beat product tone you can know the difference in freq between your xtal signal and the broadcast station. Then you just need to find out which broadcast station this is you hear, and you easily can find their exact frequency they transmit on, which is pretty precise
2015-06-14 16:29 <DocScrutinizer05> whatever the chip you use, when it has a xtal oscillator then it also provides a means to tune that, by either providing the 16MHz to a test pin so you could run whatever freq counter you like on it (use a 1/16E6 divider and compare the number of seconds counted in one hour against an arbitrary watch), or the chip has built in freq offset evaluation and all it needs is a correct freq external 2.4MHz signal and the chip tells you in
2015-06-14 16:29 <DocScrutinizer05> some diagnostic register how much the internal xtal is offset from the applied external reference signal
2015-06-14 16:32 <DocScrutinizer05> and for a last resort you can attach to the crystal mechanically/acoustically, using e.g. a piezo. This shouldn't detune your xtal oscillator frequency and will even work for (never seen yet) chips with integrated crystal
2015-06-14 16:33 <DocScrutinizer05> while on this topic: a generally unknown/neglected issue is mechanical-acoustical coupling and interference between different crystals SMT-mounted to same PCB
2015-06-14 16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> crystals would make for nice hidden/stealth microphones in an exploited circuit :-)
2015-06-14 16:38 * DocScrutinizer05 should find out if the crystal's frequency (or at least phase) also gets detuned/modulated from the acceleration by audible frequency mechano-acoustic waves introduced to the PCB
2015-06-14 16:38 <whitequark> oh, cool idea
2015-06-14 16:38 <whitequark> you know tantalum caps are piezoelectric, right?
2015-06-14 16:38 <whitequark> that also works
2015-06-14 16:38 <DocScrutinizer05> err, not known of tantalum, no
2015-06-14 16:38 <DocScrutinizer05> X5R yes
2015-06-14 16:39 <whitequark> er, yes, ceramic of course
2015-06-14 16:39 <whitequark> brain fart
2015-06-14 16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> wouldn't feel surprised to see similar effects in generic electrolytic caps though
2015-06-14 16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly when they are already a tad aged and dried, so some gas is inside between the electrodes
2015-06-14 16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> for gas-free electrolyte I dunno if we could expect much sensitivity to pressure / mechanical interference
2015-06-14 16:44 <DocScrutinizer05> (phase modulation of reference clock)  wouldn't be any threat in a PLL design, since the PLL has LPFs that filter this out completely
2015-06-14 16:55 <DocScrutinizer05> (never seen yet) sorry, incorrect. The legendary DALLAS chip must have had an integrated crystal iirc
2015-06-14 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.rotteneggs.com/site/stories/7c4efb20-9ca7-11e0-8585-cda61f05aee7/dallas_chip_battery_hack/
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