2015-04-18 01:13 <arossdotme> any advice getting belkin or  serial ups working? not managed to get my small one’s computer interface interfacing.
2015-04-18 01:13 <arossdotme> on debain
2015-04-18 01:38 <wpwrak> fun: a tweet as a measure of code size: http://tweetnacl.cr.yp.to/    "TweetNaCl fits into just 100 tweets"
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2015-04-18 11:23 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: ((http://lab.whitequark.org/images/psu-short/short.jpeg)) I completely fail to grok what that BS with exposed tinned traces and copper fill under mask is meant to establish anyway
2015-04-18 11:33 <whitequark> exposed tinned traces for higher current carrying capacity, I'm sure
2015-04-18 11:33 <whitequark> why do they do that and ALSO add a copper polygon? I've no idea
2015-04-18 11:39 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
2015-04-18 11:39 <DocScrutinizer05> either one or the other, both together is BS
2015-04-18 11:40 <whitequark> well, we've already established they are not the best engineers in the world
2015-04-18 11:40 <whitequark> btw i've got this thing https://imgur.com/a/vEY40
2015-04-18 11:40 <whitequark> 8 bucks
2015-04-18 11:41 <DocScrutinizer05> awesome and pretty simplistic
2015-04-18 11:44 <DocScrutinizer05> all the trickery is in the layout, eh? :-D
2015-04-18 11:45 <DocScrutinizer05> now *that's* a layout you can't do with autorouter ;-)
2015-04-18 11:45 <whitequark> indeed
2015-04-18 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> true voodoo
2015-04-18 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> way beyond my expertise
2015-04-18 11:46 <whitequark> afaik no one designs these by hand
2015-04-18 11:46 <whitequark> you take a FEM simulator and basically brute force until you get the results you want
2015-04-18 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2015-04-18 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> so actually indeed *sort-of* auorouter
2015-04-18 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> autorouter*
2015-04-18 11:47 <whitequark> yeah
2015-04-18 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> X-band layout is really voodoo
2015-04-18 11:48 <DocScrutinizer05> when *everything* is a inductivity and a capacitor and a delay line and a phase shifter and a impedance transducer
2015-04-18 11:54 <DocScrutinizer05> look at http://wstaw.org/m/2015/04/18/plasma-desktopsZ1950.png or even http://wstaw.org/m/2015/04/18/plasma-desktopjg1950.png
2015-04-18 11:56 <DocScrutinizer05> the latter would be interesting to see the equivalent schematics ;-)
2015-04-18 11:56 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess it must consist of at least 2 dozen components
2015-04-18 11:58 <whitequark> the former is simple
2015-04-18 11:59 <whitequark> it's an LC series circuit tuned at the oscillator frequency
2015-04-18 11:59 <whitequark> i.e. an RF block essentially
2015-04-18 11:59 <whitequark> it's one of the standard shapes apparently
2015-04-18 11:59 <whitequark> the latter is some dark magic
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2015-04-18 12:03 <DocScrutinizer05> you seem to have found some arcane info sources? :-)
2015-04-18 12:04 <whitequark> know a dude who's into microwave
2015-04-18 12:04 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if it would maybe helpful to have a tad if casual learning about that stuff
2015-04-18 12:05 <whitequark> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC1K04kVIAAHkTh.jpg:large
2015-04-18 12:05 <DocScrutinizer05> wow! ta
2015-04-18 12:05 <whitequark> except for the microstrip inanity this thing is very simple actually
2015-04-18 12:05 <whitequark> the very thin conductors complete DC circuits
2015-04-18 12:06 <whitequark> the "transistor" is not quite just a transistor, it's an MMIC
2015-04-18 12:06 <whitequark> basically a transistor with an integrated bias circuit
2015-04-18 12:06 <whitequark> specifically for heterodyne resonators like this one
2015-04-18 12:10 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah
2015-04-18 12:11 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess BAV99 is rather envelope demod
2015-04-18 12:11 <whitequark> BAV99 is just to protect the microwave diode. it has a Vbrkdn of a few V
2015-04-18 12:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and what they call "IF" is actually the demodulated interference aka beat product
2015-04-18 12:12 <whitequark> yeah
2015-04-18 12:13 <whitequark> the "demodulation" (not sure if you can call it so) is the usual result of mixing transmitted with received
2015-04-18 12:13 <whitequark> where received would shift by a few Hz due to doppler, and you'll get a signal with those few Hz to the left of microwave diode
2015-04-18 12:14 <DocScrutinizer05> right
2015-04-18 12:14 <whitequark> (it's not really... modulating anything, it just transmits baseband and looks for shift)
2015-04-18 12:14 <DocScrutinizer05> ring modulator
2015-04-18 12:15 <whitequark> right
2015-04-18 12:15 <DocScrutinizer05> f1 * f2
2015-04-18 12:16 <DocScrutinizer05> where f1/2 are signals, not frequencies
2015-04-18 12:17 <DocScrutinizer05> resulting in f1+f2 and f1-f2, this time frequencies of the signals
2015-04-18 12:17 <DocScrutinizer05> f1-f2 is what we're interested in here. No demod needed
2015-04-18 12:17 <whitequark> exactly
2015-04-18 12:20 <DocScrutinizer05> I gather the 1202 upper left is a capacitor?
2015-04-18 12:20 <DocScrutinizer05> to DC-decouple the IF out signal
2015-04-18 12:21 <whitequark> resistor
2015-04-18 12:21 <whitequark> it's a pulldown
2015-04-18 12:21 <whitequark> the IF signal is not DC balanced :D
2015-04-18 12:22 <whitequark> I mean... there's nothing special about these lumped components. the numbered ones are bog standard SMD resistors
2015-04-18 12:22 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, ok
2015-04-18 12:22 <whitequark> the white ceramic thing is a DC block capacitor
2015-04-18 12:22 <whitequark> again to protect the microwave diode
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> so the whole ring modulator works completely passive?
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I.E. no power supply?
2015-04-18 12:23 <whitequark> yes
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> DC power
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> wow
2015-04-18 12:23 <whitequark> the only powered thing here is the oscillator
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
2015-04-18 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> as simplistic as it gets
2015-04-18 12:24 <whitequark> it works pretty well despite that
2015-04-18 12:24 <DocScrutinizer05> amazing
2015-04-18 12:24 <DocScrutinizer05> mere voodoo ;-D
2015-04-18 12:24 <whitequark> detects my hand with hundreds of mV on the IF output, if within 50cm
2015-04-18 12:24 <whitequark> datasheet says up to 20m, I think it will be able to detect large metal like cars in that range
2015-04-18 12:24 <whitequark> but not people
2015-04-18 12:24 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, 50cm - yes that's sort of easy
2015-04-18 12:25 <DocScrutinizer05> 20m is absolutely non-trivial
2015-04-18 12:25 <DocScrutinizer05> considering the signal levels on RX
2015-04-18 12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm instantly thinking of automatic doors where approaching person needs to get detected in ~2..3m distance, which prolly is what those critters are used for in 99% of installations
2015-04-18 12:26 <whitequark> that is exactly what the description said
2015-04-18 12:27 <DocScrutinizer05> did they tell anything about directivity of antenna and about how to mount that thing?
2015-04-18 12:28 <DocScrutinizer05> like "15mm above a metal surface"
2015-04-18 12:28 <DocScrutinizer05> or whatever
2015-04-18 12:29 <whitequark> nope
2015-04-18 12:29 <DocScrutinizer05> :-P
2015-04-18 12:30 <whitequark> it's fairly directional
2015-04-18 12:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I nevertheless guess it would be a good idea to mount it in that way, with the device surface pointing at sensor range
2015-04-18 12:31 <DocScrutinizer05> I think it is, yes
2015-04-18 12:31 <whitequark> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CC0idhkW4AEAgdv.png:large
2015-04-18 12:31 <DocScrutinizer05> emission in a "8" shape along axis through surface of PCB
2015-04-18 12:32 <DocScrutinizer05> hey, you got a Rigol?
2015-04-18 12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> did you already test my rigol scropts?
2015-04-18 12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> scripts
2015-04-18 12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> rigol-snapshot already works pretty fine
2015-04-18 12:34 <DocScrutinizer05> just needs to stop the scope prior to snapshotting, or it will take ages or even fail
2015-04-18 12:37 <DocScrutinizer05> http://privatepaste.com/139ae36549
2015-04-18 12:38 <whitequark> I don't have ethernet at home
2015-04-18 12:38 <whitequark> so I just use an usb drive
2015-04-18 12:41 <DocScrutinizer05> err, you don't have ethernet?
2015-04-18 12:42 <DocScrutinizer05> how comes?
2015-04-18 12:42 <DocScrutinizer05> you could link the rigol directly to your PC ethernet jack, not even a crossover patch cable needed with contenptorary NICs that do autodetect
2015-04-18 12:43 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly, rigol-snapshot is cooool
2015-04-18 12:43 <whitequark> I don't have an ethernet jack in my PC :D
2015-04-18 12:44 <DocScrutinizer05> and a 1000 times more convenient than even the USB hookup to PC
2015-04-18 12:44 <DocScrutinizer05> wow!
2015-04-18 12:44 <whitequark> it's one of the thin ultrabooks, they're too thin for that
2015-04-18 12:44 <DocScrutinizer05> err
2015-04-18 12:44 <DocScrutinizer05> USB-attached NIC then?
2015-04-18 12:44 <whitequark> I have the USB thingy but it's just annoying to use
2015-04-18 12:44 <whitequark> for occasional use I prefer just the USB drive
2015-04-18 12:45 <whitequark> it's permanently plugged into the scope
2015-04-18 12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I had that too
2015-04-18 12:45 <whitequark> except when extracting data
2015-04-18 12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> but the unplugging and plugging to PC and copying of files is a PITA
2015-04-18 12:46 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly, get a http://www.exp-tech.de/usb-ethernet-ax88772b-usb-ethernet-adapter?gclid=CJ6C-rDx_8QCFSP4wgodXCgAEw
2015-04-18 12:48 <whitequark> I have one
2015-04-18 12:48 <DocScrutinizer05> rather sth like http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/986780/Netzwerkadapter-100-MBits-EDIMAX-EU-4208-USB-20-LAN-10100-MBits/?ref=category&rt=category&rb=1 - mechanically less dangerous
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> I just don't like the extra wires around
2015-04-18 12:49 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmm
2015-04-18 12:49 <DocScrutinizer05> how about a proper AP then?
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> I mean
2015-04-18 12:49 <DocScrutinizer05> aka "router"
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> this is my work laptop
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> I unplug it all the time
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> like every day once or twice
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> this gets old *fast*
2015-04-18 12:49 <whitequark> I have a router but it is in the hall
2015-04-18 12:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ohmy
2015-04-18 12:50 <whitequark> because the ISP uplink is only long enough to reach the hall
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2015-04-18 12:50 <whitequark> I *could* lay cat5 around but it's, again, a pain. I have to do something to doorways
2015-04-18 12:50 <DocScrutinizer05> you could get a cat5a/6 from ahö to your workbench and to a switch there
2015-04-18 12:50 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe
2015-04-18 12:51 <whitequark> building obviously has no cat5 in walls because the construction company thinks it's still 1990
2015-04-18 12:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I have sth nice for you: http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/971688/RJ45-Netzwerk-Anschlusskabel-CAT-7-UFTP-1x-RJ45-Stecker-1x-RJ45-Stecker-5-m-Weiss-hochflexibel-mit-Rastnasenschutz?ref=searchDetail
2015-04-18 12:52 <DocScrutinizer05> I got one and they are niiiice
2015-04-18 12:52 <whitequark> not bad but 5m is not nearly long enough
2015-04-18 12:52 <whitequark> I looked into it and the path it has to take, it'd be at least 10
2015-04-18 12:52 <whitequark> sort of an unfortunate layout
2015-04-18 12:53 <whitequark> maybe even 15
2015-04-18 12:53 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: know what that reminds me of? POTS "noodles"
2015-04-18 12:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/972502/RJ45-Netzwerk-Anschlusskabel-CAT-7-UFTP-1x-RJ45-Stecker-1x-RJ45-Stecker-20-m-Weiss-hochflexibel-mit-Rastnasenschutz?ref=list
2015-04-18 12:54 <whitequark> at least here we call these incredibly shitty "two wires in a flat plastic envelope" POTS cables "noodles"
2015-04-18 12:54 <whitequark> history goes in circles, etc
2015-04-18 12:54 <DocScrutinizer05> only 1.8mm "thick"
2015-04-18 12:54 <whitequark> the "noodles" had the advantage that you could nail them to the wall via the plastic in center
2015-04-18 12:54 <whitequark> http://content.onliner.by/forum/1b1/218/15742/800x800/4ffd918709d5affbf60641507fd9c16a.jpg
2015-04-18 12:55 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe
2015-04-18 12:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I wouldn't pierce nails into that cat6 flat cables
2015-04-18 12:55 <whitequark> definitely
2015-04-18 12:55 <whitequark> does conrad.de even ship to RU?
2015-04-18 12:55 <whitequark> I don't know of any remailer in DE
2015-04-18 12:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I could, if you don't mind
2015-04-18 12:55 <whitequark> hm
2015-04-18 12:56 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno about conrad
2015-04-18 12:56 <whitequark> that'd work
2015-04-18 12:56 <whitequark> on a second thought I'm going to move in a few months hopefully
2015-04-18 12:56 <whitequark> so probably no point now
2015-04-18 12:56 <whitequark> unless the flat I'm going to rent has an equivalently shitty layout (hopefully not)
2015-04-18 12:56 <DocScrutinizer05> aaaw
2015-04-18 12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> take nice things like that cable with you when you move ;-)
2015-04-18 12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> you can use it again, for sure
2015-04-18 12:58 <whitequark> well... could be
2015-04-18 12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, I *strongly* recommend ethernet for Rigol, and when you actually would make up your mind to get decent ethernet and want that cable, just drop me a note with exact instructions how to send
2015-04-18 12:59 <whitequark> sure
2015-04-18 13:02 <DocScrutinizer05> meanwhile: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/bin/rigol-screenshot and rigol* and u1233 there
2015-04-18 13:02 <whitequark> I wish sigrok supported rigol
2015-04-18 13:02 <whitequark> now *that* would be interesting
2015-04-18 13:03 <whitequark> well, my rigol. it supports some of them
2015-04-18 13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> I think the err whatever-commands are pretty similar, odds are most stuff works for any rigol
2015-04-18 13:04 <whitequark> I looked into adding support
2015-04-18 13:04 <whitequark> they subtly differ in annoying ways
2015-04-18 13:04 <whitequark> like one rigol accepts an array and the other a scalar
2015-04-18 13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> some do, yes
2015-04-18 13:04 <whitequark> who the fuck writes an API like that
2015-04-18 13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> NFC
2015-04-18 13:06 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/bin/rigol-waveform
2015-04-18 13:07 <DocScrutinizer05> which is pretty much WIP
2015-04-18 13:14 <DocScrutinizer05> but seems to work, well, usually. Though I didn't verify the results yet
2015-04-18 13:15 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway a downloaded waveform should be sufficient input data for anything like sigrok
2015-04-18 13:16 <DocScrutinizer05> you're welcome to "upstream" any improvements you make, e.g. regarding buffer depth configured in Rigol (script assumes 24M)  ;-)
2015-04-18 13:17 <whitequark> sigrok is more than just waveform viewer, it can do stuff like infinite capture
2015-04-18 13:17 <whitequark> and configuring the scope
2015-04-18 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> which prolly won't work with DS1000
2015-04-18 13:18 <whitequark> which is the reason to use it
2015-04-18 13:18 <whitequark> the SCPI or whatever commands are there
2015-04-18 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> it can't download waveforms realtime
2015-04-18 13:18 <whitequark> hm
2015-04-18 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> only when stopped
2015-04-18 13:18 <whitequark> oops
2015-04-18 13:19 <DocScrutinizer05> at least afaik
2015-04-18 13:21 <DocScrutinizer05> even screen snapshots take 3 times as long when running than when stopped. So in my book it's a hw (bus bandwith) limitation
2015-04-18 13:22 <DocScrutinizer05> quite possibly the ASIC that does all the heavy lifting is hooked up to the communications processor with a flimsy I2C or whatever
2015-04-18 13:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and the ASIC is not made for doing concurrent communications to processor and same time capturing
2015-04-18 13:24 <whitequark> sounds about right
2015-04-18 13:24 <whitequark> is it even an ASIC?
2015-04-18 13:24 <DocScrutinizer05> wild guessing, but sort of educated
2015-04-18 13:24 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, afaik it is
2015-04-18 13:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I once scrutinized a photo "DS1054 internals"
2015-04-18 13:25 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly on eevblog?
2015-04-18 13:27 <DocScrutinizer05> also somebody in that context said sth like "the bandwidth linit on the 50MHz devices is implemented by a simple switchable RC filter in the ASIC's inputs - this is how you enable DS1104"
2015-04-18 13:32 <DocScrutinizer05> which on second thought makes questionable sense since the DS1000 has a well known dedicated discrete ADC chip. But only one, not 4, and it needs prescalers/amps anyway, which might be part of the ASIC as well
2015-04-18 13:36 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway once you look at DS1000 screen with that info and from this perspective, you can virtually *see* how messages like "USB connected" etc are sent as bitmap from comm cpu to asic via I2C, for the asic to superimpose them into the display
2015-04-18 13:39 <whitequark> gross
2015-04-18 13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> considering reaction times I wonder how much of stuff like FFT, RS232 decoding etc is done on comm processor as well
2015-04-18 13:42 <DocScrutinizer05> the low price of the DS1000 is made possible only by very nifty software exploiting the available hw resources to the limit
2015-04-18 13:45 <DocScrutinizer05> you have a relatively simple ASIC doing the samplig and transcoding sample buffer into a display waveform and raster image, and you got a loosely linked auxiliary processor handling all the switches and communication at large, and also doing the more fancy stuff that includes lots of math or for example the help function etc
2015-04-18 13:45 <DocScrutinizer05> note how all messages like "function rate limited" or whatever look alike and look awful compared to usual display
2015-04-18 13:46 <DocScrutinizer05> err "Paramater limited!"
2015-04-18 13:47 <DocScrutinizer05> and how it akes 400ms between you turning the Y-sensitivity knob "beyond the limit" and the "Parameter linited!" showing up on display
2015-04-18 13:47 <DocScrutinizer05> takes*
2015-04-18 13:48 <DocScrutinizer05> sure the asic has some ALU to do for example the left/bottom side value display
2015-04-18 13:49 <DocScrutinizer05> "Vpp=..." etc
2015-04-18 13:52 <DocScrutinizer05> also I guess triggering is supported by that ASIC ALU
2015-04-18 13:53 <DocScrutinizer05> while the whole menu display, RS232 decoding, FFT etc is done on the aux CPU
2015-04-18 13:55 <DocScrutinizer05> it even seems to me that for unknown reasons all display elements coming from aux CPU are mainly B&W while ASIC is more colorful. I have no real good explanation for that yet
2015-04-18 13:56 <DocScrutinizer05> possibly a hw limitation in compositor
2015-04-18 13:59 <DocScrutinizer05> "compositor" I meant the stuff in ASIC doing overlay of data (from aux CPU, e.g. menus) over the display created locally (the colorful waveform and stuff)
2015-04-18 14:00 <DocScrutinizer05> then otoh those menus have a blue highlight, which voids such explanation
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