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2015-02-17 05:38 <wpwrak> xiangfu: nice pictures !  in Anelok-led-on.jpg, is that LED really on ?
2015-02-17 05:38 <wpwrak> also, in Anelok-wrong-usb-connector.jpg the connector looks good. are you sure this it the wrong one ?
2015-02-17 05:39 <xiangfu> wpwrak: Hi. I mean the oled was on. :)
2015-02-17 05:39 <wpwrak> aaah ! ;-)
2015-02-17 05:39 <xiangfu> wpwrak: the connector pin was not 100% match the pad.
2015-02-17 05:40 <wpwrak> did that cause a problem ?
2015-02-17 05:41 <wpwrak> it looks as if it should still work. though the leg hidden under the cable may be a bit close to the via
2015-02-17 05:42 <xiangfu> the connection is right. but the pin is not 100% match the PCB pad.
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2015-02-17 05:43 <xiangfu> no. it works fine. and pretty stable.
2015-02-17 05:43 <wpwrak> ah well, details :) i'm not using the connector correctly anyway - there should be board cut-outs for the little "horns". of course, i noticed that only very late ...
2015-02-17 05:43 <xiangfu> next time I will find the ring connector.
2015-02-17 05:43 <xiangfu> ah. Yes.
2015-02-17 05:46 <wpwrak> by the way, i made some changes that may break things. 1) i fixed a bug in touch screen polling that - ironically - made it work. i'm still not entirely sure why it mattered, but it did. i also changed how the input system handles time, so that it should now be independent from delays elsewhere. but this may introduce surprises. my devices work fine with the new code, though, so hopefully i didn't do too much damage.
2015-02-17 05:48 <wpwrak> 2) i kicked out the non-open register definitions and linker script and replaced them with things i can legally redistribute. had to make some small changes for that, so i may have broken something. things look good here, though, so again there's hope that nothing bad will happen. just wanted to warn you.
2015-02-17 05:52 <xiangfu> I will test the new code. then let you know.
2015-02-17 05:54 <xiangfu> lunch time.
2015-02-17 05:54 <wpwrak> in general, the touch sensor driver will see more changes in the future: right now it polls actively which a) wastes quite a lot of energy, especially in standby, and b) makes its timing fairly chaotic. the above changes should already bring some sanity to input.c, but touch.c still needs more work. the idea is to make it interrupt-driven and then let the CPU enter a sleep mode when there's nothing else to do. all this means that the
2015-02-17 05:54 <wpwrak> characteristics of the touch sensor may change a bit. e.g., the threshold value and such may have to be adjusted at some point.
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2015-02-17 11:16 <DocScrutinizer05> forget the particular schematics, but the service digikey offers here actually looks very smart:  http://www.digikey.com/schemeit/#wp6
2015-02-17 11:16 <DocScrutinizer05> the idea is great anyway
2015-02-17 11:18 <DocScrutinizer05> EDA as a web service, offered with component lib already
2015-02-17 11:25 <whitequark> >EDA as a web service
2015-02-17 11:26 <whitequark> and in a year they get acquihired and write you a message about "an incredible journey" you had together, and tell you they'll delete all your designs in a month
2015-02-17 11:26 <whitequark> http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/
2015-02-17 11:28 <viric> :)
2015-02-17 11:28 <viric> I envision Xilinx software for the web
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2015-02-17 11:29 <whitequark> they'll get there eventually
2015-02-17 11:29 <viric> nice, this incredible journey
2015-02-17 11:29 <whitequark> but it'll be just same old shit, now in a web browser
2015-02-17 11:29 <whitequark> no innovation in EDA
2015-02-17 11:29 <viric> but you will be able to design from your iphone
2015-02-17 11:31 <eintopf> :D
2015-02-17 11:32 <eintopf> via iphone while sitting on the toilet!
2015-02-17 11:32 <whitequark> so that's why none of the iot devices work
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2015-02-17 11:35 * eintopf making iot stuff
2015-02-17 11:35 <eintopf> so my work doesn't work? Yea, it's mostly wip.
2015-02-17 11:38 <whitequark> eintopf: does your iot stuff depend on a central server provided by $COMPANY?
2015-02-17 11:39 <whitequark> does it stash a remotely exploitable ancient version of linux somewhere it's accessible by network?
2015-02-17 11:41 <eintopf> I improve the 802.15.4 /6lowpan stack in linux kernel to make it in some useable state
2015-02-17 11:41 <eintopf> all open source
2015-02-17 11:42 <eintopf> common solution with 6lowpan/802.15.4 is a contiki mcu as adaptation layer
2015-02-17 11:43 <eintopf> but, we want remove the contiki stuff
2015-02-17 11:43 <whitequark> yeah, contiki is terribad
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2015-02-17 11:45 <eintopf> whitequark: I also working on a contiki replacement. The goal is to have a easy development -> copy linux implemented IPv6 IoT application into the $CONTIKI_REPLACEMENT and just add it to the buildsystem
2015-02-17 11:45 <eintopf> I mean from userspace view, it should be the same interface
2015-02-17 11:46 <eintopf> also contains, Kconfig as builsystem and such things... like linux
2015-02-17 11:46 <eintopf> but this is my little hobby project
2015-02-17 11:47 <eintopf> first I want only add a "generic" firmware application for atusb, so we can also run the firmware on the RZUSBSTICK (it's something like atusb, but different mcu and at86rf230)
2015-02-17 11:47 <eintopf> then you need just replace two ".config" configs to making one atusb firmware and one RZUSBSTICK firmware
2015-02-17 11:47 <eintopf> but I will keep the name atusb firmware :)
2015-02-17 11:48 <eintopf> so, that are big plans...
2015-02-17 11:48 <Akiraa> hello, are you aware of ready-made solutions to implement a 'mass storage device' api for a device like 'banana pi' or olinuxino, boards that have USB-OTG
2015-02-17 11:48 <Akiraa> so that they may present themselves as 'removable storage' to computers or other USB hosts
2015-02-17 11:48 <whitequark> eintopf: lately i have been doubting how wise it is to put linux in iot devices
2015-02-17 11:49 <whitequark> heartbleed, right? basically none embedded devices with heartbleed will ever get patched
2015-02-17 11:49 <whitequark> and if we find an exploitable vulnerability in the network stack, it's going to be an apocalypse, pretty much
2015-02-17 11:49 <whitequark> s/if/when/ really
2015-02-17 11:49 <qi-bot> whitequark meant: "and when we find an exploitable vulnerability in the network stack, it's going to be an apocalypse, pretty much"
2015-02-17 11:49 <eintopf> whitequark: time will changes and for a IPv6<->6LoWPAN bridge is linux the best solution
2015-02-17 11:50 <eintopf> and thats a stationary nodes with power connection
2015-02-17 11:50 <Akiraa> whitequark: regardless, IoT devices are too low power to survive attacks if hooked directly to the internet, they require a separate box to act as a firewall, rate-limiter, load-balancer etc.
2015-02-17 11:50 <whitequark> how many routers get vendor firmware updates?
2015-02-17 11:50 <whitequark> how many vendor firmwares aren't horribly vulnerable by themselves?
2015-02-17 11:51 <whitequark> Akiraa: well, most iot devices i have seen so far are pretty big. think nest thermostat or smoke
2015-02-17 11:51 <whitequark> that's a full-fledged linux board. the immediate future will be dominated by this form
2015-02-17 11:52 <Akiraa> they are expensive enough to have a fully powered CPU inside that can handle crypto, I guess, but wouldn't bet on it
2015-02-17 11:52 <whitequark> well, you /have/ to handle crypto in /any/ wireless device, it's not even a question, but this is not what i am talking about
2015-02-17 11:52 <whitequark> they use arm boards running linux and openssl and all that
2015-02-17 11:52 <whitequark> and that doesn't help
2015-02-17 11:53 <eintopf> these devices does exists already, atheros sells arm socs with integradted 802.11
2015-02-17 11:53 <eintopf> I want something like that, but with 802.15.4
2015-02-17 11:53 <eintopf> with ~4MB flash
2015-02-17 11:54 <eintopf> such things, all is in one chip
2015-02-17 11:54 <eintopf> but do really power managment with very low power and via battery...
2015-02-17 11:54 <eintopf> don't know how possible that is currently
2015-02-17 11:56 <Akiraa> I would be interested even in some useful keywords for search if you can help (implementing USB "mass storage device" from a linux box with USB-OTG)
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2015-02-17 13:21 <wpwrak> Akiraa: g_file_storage seems to be what you're looking for. (search term  linux gadget mass storage)
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2015-02-17 13:23 <wpwrak> whitequark: (web-based EDA) we also have mbed, so also sw engineers can work the modern way :)
2015-02-17 13:24 <wpwrak> and haven't we come a long way ? from SaaS (whatever-S-was-as-a-Service) to X-a-a-S *(Whatever-as-a-Service) now to YJaaS (Your-Job-...), all the way building up to YCaaS (Your Company)
2015-02-17 13:24 <wpwrak> thinking of it, the mafia selling protection and vandalism insurance did some quite pioneering work in that domain :)
2015-02-17 13:30 <Akiraa> wpwrak: thanks
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2015-02-17 14:25 <whitequark> lol
2015-02-17 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> 4 new snapshots about BPW34: http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/IR-photodiode/BPW34+1kR_electron-flash-1m-dist.jpg http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/IR-photodiode/*
2015-02-17 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> the funny stray signal at start of http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/IR-photodiode/BPW34+1kR_electron-flash_detail2us_rise.jpg is prolly via inductive or capacitive interference from camera to the 5cm GND wire of the probe
2015-02-17 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> most likely inductive, by the trigger inductor that creates high voltage to trigger electrode of electron flash tube
2015-02-17 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> sidenote: the BPW provides an incredible 25mW power from a tiny electron flash fired ~10cm distant from it
2015-02-17 14:37 <DocScrutinizer05> even with the aleggedly "1m dist" which actually rather been 60cm, in http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/IR-photodiode/BPW34+1kR_electron-flash-1m-dist.jpg
2015-02-17 14:38 <wpwrak> next: "wireless charging" :-)
2015-02-17 14:39 <DocScrutinizer05> for 10cm ( http://neo900.org/stuff/joerg/random-media/IR-photodiode/BPW34+1kR_electron-flash.jpg ) it's even 49mW
2015-02-17 14:40 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I guess you can calculate the distance ratio from power ratio more accurate than my guesstimations
2015-02-17 14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> I bet it's exactly the radiation-power / area  *  efficiency
2015-02-17 14:41 <wpwrak> that would indeed kinda make sense :)
2015-02-17 14:42 <DocScrutinizer05> but the camera has a way to modulate flash power. Dunno how it does that
2015-02-17 14:42 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway SEVEN volt!!
2015-02-17 14:43 <DocScrutinizer05> now you see why they test photovoltaic panels in factory with strong electron flashlight
2015-02-17 14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess on defective PV panels some traces simply will burn out
2015-02-17 14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> afk
2015-02-17 14:45 <wpwrak> it's good to know that the panels will be able to resist the sun going supernova, just in case :)
2015-02-17 14:46 <wpwrak> the aftermath will be messy enough. i guess the panel makers wouldn't want to have to worry about warranty claims on top of it, too
2015-02-17 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> thunder lighting
2015-02-17 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> fireworks
2015-02-17 14:48 <wpwrak> you must have quite some fireworks ;-)
2015-02-17 14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> there exists quite some fireworks, yes
2015-02-17 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> some of those 20cm diameter bombs are filled with flash power
2015-02-17 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe 12cm only
2015-02-17 14:52 <eintopf> z/win 3
2015-02-17 14:52 <eintopf> oops
2015-02-17 14:52 <eintopf> I meant win 300
2015-02-17 14:52 <eintopf> just for clarify
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2015-02-17 15:08 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmm http://www.elektronik-labor.de/Projekte/Alpha.html
2015-02-17 15:14 <eintopf> DocScrutinizer05: why do you need something like that?
2015-02-17 15:15 <DocScrutinizer05> just pondering synergies
2015-02-17 15:15 <eintopf> wahhh, the guy hold a radioactive clock
2015-02-17 15:15 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2015-02-17 15:16 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the girls who painted the phosphorescent paint on the clock hands formed their brushes by licking them ;-o
2015-02-17 15:17 <DocScrutinizer05> no surprise they _all_ died during max 10 years iirc
2015-02-17 15:18 <eintopf> DocScrutinizer05: do you think in moscow is the radioactive higher than in... germany?
2015-02-17 15:18 <DocScrutinizer05> no, why?
2015-02-17 15:19 <eintopf> don't know, maybe because it's easier to get radioactive material
2015-02-17 15:19 <eintopf> (don't know if this is true)
2015-02-17 15:19 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the _total_ average radioactivity, incl all hotspots, even shielded ones, for sure is higher
2015-02-17 15:20 <DocScrutinizer05> for 99.999% of normal places though I don't think there's a significant difference
2015-02-17 15:20 <eintopf> ah, ok.
2015-02-17 15:22 <DocScrutinizer05> in germany we have quite some vaiance in average environmental radioactivity too. Thanks to Chernobyl fallout which hit mostly Bayern
2015-02-17 15:22 <whitequark> moscow underground uses quite a bit of granite
2015-02-17 15:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, there might be Radon
2015-02-17 15:23 <pcercuei> < DocScrutinizer05> in germany we have quite some vaiance in average environmental radioactivity too. Thanks to Chernobyl fallout which hit mostly Bayern
2015-02-17 15:23 <pcercuei> now everything suddently makes sense :)
2015-02-17 15:23 <eintopf> ahh, I know radon. You can use it for measurement time?
2015-02-17 15:23 <eintopf> instead of quarz
2015-02-17 15:23 <whitequark> no
2015-02-17 15:23 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
2015-02-17 15:24 <whitequark> atomic clocks do not use radioactivity
2015-02-17 15:24 <eintopf> mhhh
2015-02-17 15:24 <DocScrutinizer05> they work like a microwave oven
2015-02-17 15:24 <whitequark> they use... basically resonance of the nucleus of some elements, cesium usually
2015-02-17 15:24 <DocScrutinizer05> filled with vapor of usually Caesium
2015-02-17 15:25 <eintopf> yes, caesium... but there exists something between caesium and quarz. Something with R...
2015-02-17 15:25 <whitequark> so the thing is, the nucleus of caesium has spin, and that spin can flip, and flipping it takes a very small and also very consistent amount of energy
2015-02-17 15:25 <eintopf> other material
2015-02-17 15:25 <whitequark> which happens to be in microwave range
2015-02-17 15:25 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah maybe
2015-02-17 15:25 <whitequark> so you can use that difference as a frequency standard
2015-02-17 15:25 <DocScrutinizer05> some weird stuff, yes I seem to remember, Notr Raduim. Ruthenium?
2015-02-17 15:25 <whitequark> rubidium
2015-02-17 15:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ta
2015-02-17 15:26 <eintopf> yeaa rubidium
2015-02-17 15:26 <eintopf> I know some guys sells that on ebay
2015-02-17 15:26 <whitequark> it's just an alkali metal
2015-02-17 15:26 <DocScrutinizer05> well, it's maybe something pretty "normal"
2015-02-17 15:26 <whitequark> it catches fire in air
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> otherwise nothing very interesting about it
2015-02-17 15:27 <DocScrutinizer05> like alkaline
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> now what /is/ interesting is chip-scale atomic clocks
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> MEMS
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> for use in GPS chipsets
2015-02-17 15:27 <DocScrutinizer05> hah
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> http://www.microsemi.com/products/timing-synchronization-systems/embedded-timing-solutions/components/sa-45s-chip-scale-atomic-clock
2015-02-17 15:27 <whitequark> commercially available
2015-02-17 15:27 <DocScrutinizer05> wow
2015-02-17 15:28 <eintopf> :o
2015-02-17 15:28 <eintopf> indoor gps comes possible
2015-02-17 15:28 <whitequark> not really
2015-02-17 15:28 <eintopf> ah, ok.
2015-02-17 15:28 <whitequark> what this makes possible is instant fix
2015-02-17 15:28 <whitequark> and more precision
2015-02-17 15:28 <DocScrutinizer05> indoor is not related to timebase
2015-02-17 15:29 <whitequark> i've seen a fun paper about indoor
2015-02-17 15:29 <whitequark> using MIMO receiver to fingerprint various locations
2015-02-17 15:29 <whitequark> i.e. NOT triangulation, that doesn't take into account multipath
2015-02-17 15:29 <eintopf> I know the solution to use RF and ultrasonic
2015-02-17 15:29 <DocScrutinizer05> 35g. 17cm^3. I wonder how many bucks
2015-02-17 15:29 <whitequark> rather this one /depends/ on multipath propagation to make fingerprints unique
2015-02-17 15:29 <eintopf> to measurement the ultrasonic wave traveling time
2015-02-17 15:29 <whitequark> eintopf: that's not really used
2015-02-17 15:30 <eintopf> yea, but works in labor enviornment
2015-02-17 15:30 <whitequark> well, if you need to measure a meter or two, sure
2015-02-17 15:30 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: hehe, sounds like what I started in part1 of "GPS revised"
2015-02-17 15:30 <whitequark> but there are indoor positioning systems for warehouses
2015-02-17 15:30 <eintopf> RFID marks on the floor?
2015-02-17 15:30 <DocScrutinizer05> http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002434.html
2015-02-17 15:31 <whitequark> eintopf: that's a cheap way yes
2015-02-17 15:31 <whitequark> barcodes on the ceiling
2015-02-17 15:31 <whitequark> if you are REALLY cheap
2015-02-17 15:31 <eintopf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quWFjS3Ci7A
2015-02-17 15:31 <whitequark> or you could use http://www.mit.edu/people/jhow/papers/Prigge_thesis_draft.pdf
2015-02-17 15:31 <eintopf> you mean something like this?
2015-02-17 15:32 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Front of OM Ap. building, 3m away<<
2015-02-17 15:33 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the concept of highres-fingerprinting, done by me in 2008
2015-02-17 15:33 <eintopf> I make a bookmark to the thesis, thanks
2015-02-17 15:34 <DocScrutinizer05> >>The max and min readings where obtained by moving the phone ~60cm!<<
2015-02-17 15:36 <DocScrutinizer05> once you got a "map" of your location fingerprints, you can even do pattern matching as soon as your receiver is moving
2015-02-17 15:36 <DocScrutinizer05> assuming there will never be jumps / teleports from ne location to another
2015-02-17 15:37 <DocScrutinizer05> assuming further that movement usually is mostly linear, you can check the sample pattern against plausible fottprint pattern sequences
2015-02-17 15:39 <DocScrutinizer05> but the most reliable and simple indoor location is U-TDOA done with e.g. WLAN
2015-02-17 15:40 <whitequark> don't you need many access points for that?
2015-02-17 15:40 <DocScrutinizer05> when you're the location owner and want to locate "arbitrary" visitors that happen to have a WLAN-enabled device with them
2015-02-17 15:40 <whitequark> with precisely synchronized clocks
2015-02-17 15:41 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: yes
2015-02-17 15:44 <DocScrutinizer05> the E-OTD-alike "fingerprinting" by calculation of reflexion/multipath phase to original signal needs pretty specialized receivers
2015-02-17 15:44 <DocScrutinizer05> U-TDOA nees specialized APs
2015-02-17 15:46 <DocScrutinizer05> poor man's E-OTD like in http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-April/002434.html relies on interference between direct and multipath signal creating local standing waves that modulate signal aplitude over distances in the range a a few dozen or hundred wavelengths
2015-02-17 15:47 <DocScrutinizer05> you also need several distinct stationary transmitters for that
2015-02-17 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> downside: such standing-wave-interferences are very unstable, they change a lot with every change in environment, like different temperature or air humidity
2015-02-17 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> s/wprak/whitequark/ sorry
2015-02-17 15:52 <whitequark> yeah
2015-02-17 15:53 <whitequark> relevant: http://hackaday.com/2015/02/17/mapping-wifi-signals-in-3-dimensions
2015-02-17 15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> U-TDOA is the method of choice. And for smartphones many carriers already offer location detection assisted by U-TDOA
2015-02-17 15:55 <DocScrutinizer05> UMTS--U-TDOA works fine indoors, and incredibly fast too. My N900 meanwhile gets a location fix during no more than 4s no matter where I am
2015-02-17 15:55 <DocScrutinizer05> cold
2015-02-17 15:56 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks to the GPS controlled by the modem
2015-02-17 15:57 <DocScrutinizer05> ~rrlp
2015-02-17 15:57 <infobot> rrlp is, like, the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP
2015-02-17 16:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I didn't look into the RRLP detals but I guess there must be info from BTS to MT about the actual location of MT as seen by "the network" - in addition to the mere A-GPS "raw" data about which codes to check for at which frequency
2015-02-17 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> so the N900 GPS gets enabled, the modem controlling the GPS asks network for RRLP assistance, network does a U-TDOA trilateration and sends the info with a estimated horizontal precision of maybe 10 or 20m back to the modem, which then decides this is already a nice "first fix" even when GPS has not yet correlated to the SVs
2015-02-17 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> (this is _my_ semi-educated guess on what's going on)
2015-02-17 16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> quite possible that carriers do U-TDOA for _all_ MT they service, by default, nowadays
2015-02-17 16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> all the time
2015-02-17 16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> why waste a transmission? why delay stuff when you can do it in advance already, so to speed up LCS
2015-02-17 16:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and it's known the TLA agencies run their own independent U-TDOA networks, I just wonder about the bandwidth of RX bands they receive and record with timestamp for later computations when they are interested in a particular transmitter's exact position
2015-02-17 16:18 <whitequark> they seem to be using stingrays actually
2015-02-17 16:19 <DocScrutinizer05> what's a stingray?
2015-02-17 16:19 <whitequark> fake BTS
2015-02-17 16:19 <DocScrutinizer05> well, yes, that too
2015-02-17 16:19 <whitequark> used for intercepting calls / SMS / locating
2015-02-17 16:19 <DocScrutinizer05> just to crack encryption
2015-02-17 16:19 <DocScrutinizer05> when they want to eavesdrop on a particular communication
2015-02-17 16:19 <whitequark> i doubt they'd use stingrays, which are relatively easily detected by public, instead of proper U-TDOA if they could
2015-02-17 16:20 <DocScrutinizer05> U-TDOA only records, it doesn't do MITM
2015-02-17 16:20 <DocScrutinizer05> so encryption is effective in the U-TDOA records
2015-02-17 16:20 <whitequark> well you can do any MITM you want using the network as well as a stingray
2015-02-17 16:20 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as it's effective at all
2015-02-17 16:21 <DocScrutinizer05> the purpose of U_TDOA is completely different than that of an IMSI-catcher anyway
2015-02-17 16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and actually I guess only the "poor folks" like regular law enforcement still use IMSI-catchers. The mighty TLA's use direct interception interface of the carriers
2015-02-17 16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> U-TDOA however is not limited to cellphones
2015-02-17 16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> they can trilaterate virtually every RF-device
2015-02-17 16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and prolly not only real-time but alsio from records, for at least hours back
2015-02-17 16:29 <DocScrutinizer05> only need to know the signal signature
2015-02-17 16:32 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder if they already record the complete spectrum from say 50kHz to 4GHz
2015-02-17 16:32 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly long wave is useless for U-TDOA
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2015-02-17 16:33 <DocScrutinizer05> since U-TDOA by physics can't go significantly more accurate than a fraction of wavelength
2015-02-17 16:34 <whitequark> what if you also record phase?
2015-02-17 16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> that's why I say "fraction of wavelength"
2015-02-17 16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> you can't record phase to arbitrary precision
2015-02-17 16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> sort of RF Heissenberg
2015-02-17 16:36 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway assume they'd sample 16bit at 8G-samples/s
2015-02-17 16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> that's a "ridiculous" 16GB/s
2015-02-17 16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> and somewhat covers 0...4GHz
2015-02-17 16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> 16bit logarithmic would prolly also yield sufficient precision as well as sensitivity
2015-02-17 16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> if not, go 24 or even 32
2015-02-17 16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> place a grid of such "total receivers"  evenly spaced over a country, grid pitch of maybe 50 or 100km
2015-02-17 16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> record *all* transmitting devices, incl location down to 10m precision
2015-02-17 16:42 <DocScrutinizer05> data volume in the 1digit TB per minte range, per station
2015-02-17 16:43 <DocScrutinizer05> how many 2TB HDDs will they spend on that?
2015-02-17 16:43 <DocScrutinizer05> are a 1000 per station reasonable?
2015-02-17 16:46 <DocScrutinizer05> (long wave) even for 100kHz the wavelength is 2.7km if my math doesn't suck
2015-02-17 16:46 <whitequark> 10PB per week per station
2015-02-17 16:46 <whitequark> 1000 HDDs per station is a LOT
2015-02-17 16:47 <whitequark> that would be a substantial part of global production
2015-02-17 16:47 <DocScrutinizer05> 1000 a lot? why?
2015-02-17 16:47 <DocScrutinizer05> nah
2015-02-17 16:48 <DocScrutinizer05> if somebody uses a significant fraction of global HDD production then that's the NSA data vcenter in... err Utah?
2015-02-17 16:49 <whitequark> yeah
2015-02-17 16:49 <DocScrutinizer05> for germany you would prolly get away with some 2 digit number of stations, that would sum up to maybe 80k HDD. Samsumg sells more laptops every day
2015-02-17 16:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and I bet my scratchpad design can get significantly streamlined by some network engineers
2015-02-17 16:52 <DocScrutinizer05> and some smart math cracks to apply data compression and whatnot
2015-02-17 16:54 <DocScrutinizer05> nd maybe they do snapshots whenever something worrying happens
2015-02-17 16:55 <whitequark> ha
2015-02-17 16:55 <whitequark> snapshots
2015-02-17 16:55 <whitequark> the only way you can do snapshots with this amount of data is physically moving hard drives around
2015-02-17 16:55 <DocScrutinizer05> well, call it "freeze"
2015-02-17 16:55 <whitequark> nothing else comes close
2015-02-17 16:55 <whitequark> in bandwidth
2015-02-17 16:56 <whitequark> amazon offers a backup service where they record backup on HDDs and mail them you
2015-02-17 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> and yes, I actually expect them to carry those HDD arounf in racks a 128 each
2015-02-17 16:58 <DocScrutinizer05> some guy pushes a button for station 2,3,4,18,19,20. A 2h later a lorry with spare racks drives by each of those 6 stations and some guys swap the new racks for the snapshotted ones
2015-02-17 16:59 <DocScrutinizer05> the poor noob is the one to carry the 8 new racks up to 3rd floor and the ones with the data down to the lorry
2015-02-17 17:02 <DocScrutinizer05> nothing comes close to the bandwidth of a lorry full of HDD
2015-02-17 17:02 <DocScrutinizer05> poor RTT but mega bandwidth ;-)
2015-02-17 17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> but hey, connect the stations with decent DSL to make a grid of distributed computing and analyze the data without moving it around in lorries
2015-02-17 17:05 <DocScrutinizer05> after all you're not interested in the complete set of raw data, only in a very specific negligible part of it
2015-02-17 17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so as long as the stations have sufficient spare HDD for the next snapshot/freeze, no need to supply them with swap racks
2015-02-17 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> a simple calculation: you want to save or swap or process the spare set of HDD with that snapshot before the HDD set in charge to store new data is filled up
2015-02-17 17:10 <DocScrutinizer05> unless you got a 3rd set of HDD, aka a 2nd spare
2015-02-17 17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway consider *total* radio surveillance a fact
2015-02-17 17:19 <whitequark> a fact is way too strong. it's a possibility
2015-02-17 17:19 <whitequark> it's entirely possible that it doesn't offer enough return for the (substantial) investment
2015-02-17 17:19 <DocScrutinizer05> in that context I consider everything faintly possible a given fact and already accomplished
2015-02-17 17:20 <whitequark> so, where's our cold fusion plants?
2015-02-17 17:20 <DocScrutinizer05> the investment is negligible for the return
2015-02-17 17:20 <whitequark> or even hot fusion :]
2015-02-17 17:20 <DocScrutinizer05> how, that context?
2015-02-17 17:21 <DocScrutinizer05> to supply NSA with electricity?
2015-02-17 17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> and you forgot that fusion is not even theoretically stable yet
2015-02-17 17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> they hope to make it *work* in maybe 20 years or so
2015-02-17 17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> a 0..8GHz RF scanner is "available on ebay"
2015-02-17 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and expense for one station is prolly significantly < 1 million
2015-02-17 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> that's peanuts for those guys
2015-02-17 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly when return benefit is "total TF surveillance". They'd pay 1000 times as much for that
2015-02-17 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> s/ TF / RF /
2015-02-17 17:24 <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "particularly when return benefit is "total RF surveillance". They'd pay 1000 times as much for that"
2015-02-17 17:24 <whitequark> hard drives: $80,000
2015-02-17 17:25 <whitequark> yeah sounds about right
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2015-02-17 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.mit.edu/people/jhow/papers/Prigge_thesis_draft.pdf  >> I certify that I have read this dissertation and that, in my opinion, it is fully adequate in scope and quality as a dissertation for the degree of **Doctor of Philosophy.**<< Oh WOW, what PHILOSOPHY Doctors deal with, incredible
2015-02-17 17:44 <whitequark> PhD
2015-02-17 17:45 <whitequark> means Doctor of Philosophy
2015-02-17 17:45 <whitequark> regardless of the actual domain
2015-02-17 17:49 <wpwrak> cf. "natural philosophy" :)
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2015-02-17 18:02 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess I'm spoiled by the very precise german nomenclature regarding academic degrees, and the bad reputation _our_ philosophy graduates have, regarding their perspective and usefulness for real life
2015-02-17 18:03 <DocScrutinizer05> nevr heard of "natural philosophy"
2015-02-17 18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> (very precise) well until recently they introduced all that "bachelor" (SIC)and whatnot stuff
2015-02-17 18:09 <wpwrak> they have perspectives ? :)
2015-02-17 18:11 <wpwrak> (nat. phil.) -> wikipedia. and it seems that you haven't read the fine works of Neal Stephenson :)
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2015-02-17 18:23 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Deutschland: Dr. rer. nat. für lateinisch doctor rerum naturalium<<
2015-02-17 18:23 <DocScrutinizer05> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Spezial%3ASuche&profile=default&search=+phil.+nat.&fulltext=Search
2015-02-17 18:24 <DocScrutinizer05> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doktor_der_Naturwissenschaften
2015-02-17 18:24 <DocScrutinizer05> this?
2015-02-17 18:29 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway seems I confused PhD with Dr. phil.
2015-02-17 18:31 <whitequark> no you did not
2015-02-17 18:31 <whitequark> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Philosophy
2015-02-17 18:31 <whitequark> "Doctor of Philosophy, abbreviated as PhD,"
2015-02-17 18:31 <DocScrutinizer05> Ohhh >>Dr. phil. nat. (philosophiae naturalis): Doktor der Naturwissenschaften, wie er an der Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main anstelle des Dr. rer. nat. verliehen wird.<<
2015-02-17 18:32 <wpwrak> the german and the anglosaxon system are different
2015-02-17 18:33 <wpwrak> the anglosaxon system is basically based on the scientific culture of ancient greece, where all the "scientists" (as opposed to craftsmen) where "philosophers"
2015-02-17 18:33 <DocScrutinizer05> in Germany Philosophers are hardly scientists at all ;-)
2015-02-17 18:34 <wpwrak> (dr. phil. nat.) of course, no rule without exception ;-)
2015-02-17 18:34 <DocScrutinizer05> didn't know of that
2015-02-17 18:34 <DocScrutinizer05> anglo PhD == german Dr.
2015-02-17 18:35 <DocScrutinizer05> roughly
2015-02-17 18:35 <DocScrutinizer05> german Dr. phil. ~= PhD of Philosophy
2015-02-17 18:35 <DocScrutinizer05> or whatever
2015-02-17 18:36 <wpwrak> yes, they're equivalent. but the PhD comes from the origins of modern science in england, which in turn - that being the renaissance - adopted greek terminology
2015-02-17 18:36 <DocScrutinizer05> while Germany didn't (except Johann-Wolfgang-Goethe-Universität)
2015-02-17 18:37 <wpwrak> the german "dr." probably just shed the "phil." at some point
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2015-02-17 18:38 <DocScrutinizer05> whatever, puzzled me
2015-02-17 18:38 <DocScrutinizer05> here Doctors of Philosophy usually end as taxi drivers
2015-02-17 18:40 <wpwrak> surely a great place to discuss weighty matters of the universe - and all that transcends it - with a diverse audience
2015-02-17 18:41 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe, yes
2015-02-17 18:42 <DocScrutinizer05> some make it into an occasional TV show
2015-02-17 18:42 <DocScrutinizer05> talk shaw ;-D
2015-02-17 18:42 <DocScrutinizer05> show*
2015-02-17 18:43 <DocScrutinizer05> industry anyway rarely ever pays for their living
2015-02-17 18:44 <DocScrutinizer05> and I'd feel scared when they now started messing with engineering topics
2015-02-17 18:45 <wpwrak> some of the more meandering standards could come from this sort of branch of society ...
2015-02-17 18:45 <DocScrutinizer05> lol
2015-02-17 18:45 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, USB for example
2015-02-17 18:46 <wpwrak> they provide the structural discourse, some engineering grunts get to fill in the numbers
2015-02-17 18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> the only plausble explanation for stuff like CARKIT
2015-02-17 18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> OSI also sounded like that sort of thing
2015-02-17 18:48 <wpwrak> i'd attribute this more to the easy availability of cheap glue :)
2015-02-17 18:49 <wpwrak> (carkit, that is. osi, itu, etsi, .. yes)
2015-02-17 18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh, now that took until the glue pun arrived. Oh yes, that's the better explanation
2015-02-17 18:51 * DocScrutinizer05 never again will get that glue out of the USB jack
2015-02-17 18:52 * DocScrutinizer05 might need to open up an Edding pen and see what it smells like
2015-02-17 18:52 <wpwrak> enjoy the trip ! :)
2015-02-17 18:56 <DocScrutinizer05> returning to previous monologue, I wonder if there already are digital frontend receivers available, i.e. stuff that digitizes directly after antenna and does all further signal processing digitally
2015-02-17 19:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not even sure if some spectrum analyzers maybe work that way
2015-02-17 19:27 <whitequark> I believe satellite receivers almost work that way
2015-02-17 19:29 <whitequark> they digitize the IF signal, not original
2015-02-17 19:30 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the IF still is some 2GHz, right?
2015-02-17 19:30 <whitequark> yes
2015-02-17 19:31 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess what's a major roadblock for doing this sort of stuff on plain direct RF is the AGC you find in any conventional receiver
2015-02-17 19:32 <DocScrutinizer05> a front end digitizer would need a dynamic range of... well some 80 or 90 dB
2015-02-17 19:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder if the SAT LNBs have AGC built in
2015-02-17 19:34 <whitequark> LNB?
2015-02-17 19:34 <whitequark> oh
2015-02-17 19:34 <DocScrutinizer05> Low Noise Block(?)
2015-02-17 19:34 <whitequark> "low-noise block downconverter"
2015-02-17 19:36 <DocScrutinizer05> also SAT signals are relatively "clean"
2015-02-17 19:36 <DocScrutinizer05> i.e. no far off signals of high amplitude
2015-02-17 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> the LNB already filters all that out
2015-02-17 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> a - say - terrestrial digital frontend receiver would have to cope with signals that are maybe 80 below the "noise" from a nearby broadcast station
2015-02-17 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and since we don't do any filtering before ADC in our simple all digital design, all that "noise" (which actually is a valid signal as well, for above discussed total surveillance receiver) needs to get digitized as well, while not covering and garbling very weak signals
2015-02-17 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> so yes, the ADC for such a receiver will need quite a dynamic range and will cost a few bucks
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2015-02-17 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> simply switching off the LO in RTL2832 dongle should turn it into a shortwave receiver with frontend digitizing. Would need to remove any highpass filters in input though
2015-02-17 19:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I think some guys already did this
2015-02-17 19:55 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway with such evidently feasible ~20Mhz upper freq digital frontend receiver, you could already receive _all_ shortwave broadcast with just one computer and store it to your HDD, and later on "tune in" to whatever broadcast station you like on that stored data
2015-02-17 19:56 <DocScrutinizer05> s/_all_/concurrently, simultaneously _all_/
2015-02-17 19:56 <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "anyway with such evidently feasible ~20Mhz upper freq digital frontend receiver, you could already receive concurrently, simultaneously _all_ shortwave broadcast with just one computer and store it to your HDD, and later on "tune in" to whatever broadcast station you like on that stored data"
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