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2014-10-23 05:08 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/usb/dfu.c (config_descriptor): correct alt settings off-by-one error (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b51d442
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2014-10-23 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> http://forkfedora.org/ is a clear evidence why systemd is crap and doesn't offer finegrained control to sysops
2014-10-23 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<wpwrak> see, just one line. clearly, my system is superior ;-))) exactly
2014-10-23 10:57 <DocScrutinizer05> >>The support for ARM® TrustZone®,<< WAAAAAAHHHH!   http://inversepath.com/usbarmory
2014-10-23 10:58 <whitequark> I don't see a problem
2014-10-23 11:05 <DocScrutinizer05> reflex on reading "TrustZone"
2014-10-23 11:06 <DocScrutinizer05> TrustZone is siamese twin of trusted computing and aegis
2014-10-23 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-10-23 Thu 13:07:04] <DocScrutinizer05> aegis
2014-10-23 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-10-23 Thu 13:07:05] <infobot> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/
2014-10-23 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif
2014-10-23 11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> TZ is not helping user to install a secure system for themselves. TZ is designed to protect the system from user, so when user also is "owner" of of the trusted environment, the whole TZ is pointless and could get implemented in simpler more established and mature ways
2014-10-23 11:15 <DocScrutinizer05> or, to re-qiote with emphasis added: >>...The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set BY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE...<<
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2014-10-23 11:16 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW make sure that the 3rd party software doesn't face a system that got "tampered" by user
2014-10-23 11:20 <DocScrutinizer05> to put it straight: your 3rd party MP3-player is running in secure environment so the content provider can be sure you have no means to redirect the decoded audio stream to any other destination than the DAC and 3.5mm headset output
2014-10-23 11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> since *all* processes running on your system got approved and signed by 3rd party. So you got no tool to do such redirect of audio data. When you're the owner of the "3rd party" signature key then what's the purpose of whole trustzone?
2014-10-23 11:23 <DocScrutinizer05> you cannot protect the system from yourself
2014-10-23 11:27 <larsc> https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/10/23/129 ;)
2014-10-23 11:30 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf is this?
2014-10-23 11:32 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: bullshit
2014-10-23 11:32 <whitequark> TZ is a tool. if the user has a key, it works in favor of user.
2014-10-23 11:32 <whitequark> it is no different than having root on device.
2014-10-23 11:32 <DocScrutinizer05> patch to augment kernel driver with a self destruction function for counterfeit FTDI chips?
2014-10-23 11:33 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: EXACTLY
2014-10-23 11:33 <DocScrutinizer05> thus it's completely useless cruft
2014-10-23 11:33 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: nope
2014-10-23 11:34 <whitequark> it has the same function as separating root and nonroot
2014-10-23 11:34 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, exactly. And since we already have such separation in all decent OS, why do we need TZ?
2014-10-23 11:34 <whitequark> because if you have regular user on linux, getting root is *trivial*
2014-10-23 11:34 <DocScrutinizer05> aha
2014-10-23 11:34 <whitequark> local privilege escalation bugs on linux count in hundreds
2014-10-23 11:35 <DocScrutinizer05> bugs in TZ count in the zillions
2014-10-23 11:35 <whitequark> link?
2014-10-23 11:35 <whitequark> I don't disagree, just haven't seen them so far
2014-10-23 11:35 <DocScrutinizer05> google for Nokia harmattan aegis
2014-10-23 11:36 <DocScrutinizer05> TZ by no means is any intrinsically more safe than calssical root/user separation and privilege management. Just way more complex, and with added benefit that you could deprive user from becoming root *ever* on own device
2014-10-23 11:37 <whitequark> you already have that issue
2014-10-23 11:37 <whitequark> I mean, on modern smartphones *without* TZ you can commonly only become root via bugs
2014-10-23 11:38 <whitequark> and you know what? if a "jailbreak" app can become root, it means that any malware whatsoever can become root too
2014-10-23 11:38 <DocScrutinizer05> they have other implementations of same concept
2014-10-23 11:38 <whitequark> this is why iPhone security works, and Android is a shithole
2014-10-23 11:38 <whitequark> one of reasons, at least
2014-10-23 11:39 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: no, I mean, even if you only implement this in software, you have the same situation
2014-10-23 11:39 <DocScrutinizer05> toldya
2014-10-23 11:39 <DocScrutinizer05> TZ is cruft
2014-10-23 11:39 <whitequark> still not convinced
2014-10-23 11:39 <whitequark> TZ is basically cut down virtualization
2014-10-23 11:40 <whitequark> whatever runs in TZ is a "hypervisor", the rest is a "guest"
2014-10-23 11:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2014-10-23 11:40 <whitequark> virtualization-based sandboxes have a much better track record than OS-based
2014-10-23 11:40 <whitequark> Xen has had around fifty advisories through its entire life, only maybe five of them can give you root
2014-10-23 11:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and unlike usual virtualization you can run TZ without ever sharing the secret key needed to sign stuff
2014-10-23 11:41 <whitequark> this is not a problem of TZ. this is a problem of shitty vendors.
2014-10-23 11:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and that'S the ONLY difference between TZ and a usual system
2014-10-23 11:42 <whitequark> between TZ and system with virtualization? yes
2014-10-23 11:42 <whitequark> between TZ and system without virtualization? no
2014-10-23 11:42 <DocScrutinizer05> as soon as you hand out the TZ root secret key, there's no difference to any other supervisor slution of which there are 5 dozen out there
2014-10-23 11:43 <whitequark> that I agree
2014-10-23 11:43 <DocScrutinizer05> just that TZ is incredibly complex and cumbversome to maintain
2014-10-23 11:44 <whitequark> hm, I've talked with someone developing for TZ and they were ok with it
2014-10-23 11:44 <whitequark> but I don't know for sure
2014-10-23 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, it's ok for you when you're the "3rd party" that actually owns the key, or you are simply not bothering about who's administrating the target platform and you just get your app you developed to owner of TZ root key for signing it
2014-10-23 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> the point is that *all* your system, from bootloader to last cheesy app, needs to get signed by TZ root key
2014-10-23 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> and you need a list of privileges allowed for every app, that gets part of such signature
2014-10-23 11:48 <whitequark> huh? I don't think so, you don't need to sign untrusted code
2014-10-23 11:48 <whitequark> it's basically the point
2014-10-23 11:48 <DocScrutinizer05> this is how nokia decides what you may or may not run on your N9
2014-10-23 11:48 <whitequark> sure, you could use TZ in such fashion if you really want, but nothing in TZ inherently requires it
2014-10-23 11:48 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's the *only* purpose of TZ
2014-10-23 11:50 <DocScrutinizer05> every app developer needs his app to get signed at Nokia, or it won't run on any N9
2014-10-23 11:52 <DocScrutinizer05> if you hand the key out to everybody, you could as well stop using TZ at all, to start with
2014-10-23 11:53 <DocScrutinizer05> handing an individual key to every single N9 owner would not differ from simply giving them the root password and not using TZ at all
2014-10-23 11:53 <DocScrutinizer05> having one common publicly known key is absolute nonsense
2014-10-23 11:55 <DocScrutinizer05> whole trustzone is only for *one* purpose: to allow vendor to have total control over the devices they sell
2014-10-23 11:55 <DocScrutinizer05> it really has no other purpose or benefit
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2014-10-23 11:58 <whitequark> as far as I see TZ is merely a hardware-assisted virtualization feature
2014-10-23 12:27 <wpwrak> larsc: it is not targeted against ze user. all i do is make sure ze rockets go up. where ze come down is not my problem ;-)
2014-10-23 12:44 <ysionneau> 13:38 < whitequark> this is why iPhone security works, and Android is a shithole < why is iPhone any better?
2014-10-23 12:45 <whitequark> ysionneau: it's generally pretty hard to jailbreak an iPhone
2014-10-23 12:45 <whitequark> (it doesn't matter to this discussion whether this is achieved via good coding practices, virtualization, TZ, whatever.)
2014-10-23 12:45 <ysionneau> isn't it the same principle? you get root through security bug
2014-10-23 12:45 <whitequark> if you can't do it, then malware can't do it as well
2014-10-23 12:45 <whitequark> sure. but jailbreaking android devices is trivial
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> I honestly don't know iPhone world
2014-10-23 12:46 <whitequark> this means you can't rely on its sandboxing at all.
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> haven't all iPhones been rooted?
2014-10-23 12:46 <whitequark> most jailbreaks require explicit physical user action, like tethering it to a PC and uploading something
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> maybe with a few months lag at each new iOS release
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> oh ok
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> I didn't know that
2014-10-23 12:46 <whitequark> since I think iOS 4 or something?
2014-10-23 12:46 <ysionneau> so no kernel exploit or something
2014-10-23 12:47 <ysionneau> well, not exploitable from app
2014-10-23 12:47 <whitequark> actually, not quite, you usually need multiple exploits
2014-10-23 12:47 <whitequark> but the days of jailbreaks from inside the device are gone
2014-10-23 12:47 <whitequark> and this is good
2014-10-23 12:47 <ysionneau> indeed Android has and had tons of vuln accessible from low privilege app
2014-10-23 12:47 <ysionneau> how do they achieve that?
2014-10-23 12:47 <ysionneau> very low system call attack surface,
2014-10-23 12:47 <ysionneau> ?
2014-10-23 12:48 <whitequark> well, for example, you can't mark data pages as executable
2014-10-23 12:48 <whitequark> so no JITs, but also less exploits
2014-10-23 12:48 <whitequark> then they have ASLR
2014-10-23 12:48 <whitequark> kernel ASLR, too
2014-10-23 12:49 <ysionneau> modern Android have ASLR pretty much everywhere I think
2014-10-23 12:49 <whitequark> yes, and then 80% of vendors put some shitty library with ASLR disabled
2014-10-23 12:49 <whitequark> also likely vulnerable
2014-10-23 12:49 <whitequark> which defeats the purpose.
2014-10-23 12:49 <ysionneau> :p
2014-10-23 12:50 <whitequark> also not sure about kernel ASLR
2014-10-23 12:50 <ysionneau> not sure about that either
2014-10-23 12:59 <wpwrak> larsc: seems that FTDI also go one step further and actively sabotage such chips: (in german) http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/FTDI-Proaktive-Fake-Chip-Abwehr-2430780.html
2014-10-23 13:02 <wpwrak> well, maybe that will make people realize they don't need FTDI chips. they've been a bad choice for a long while already and it seems it just got a little worse
2014-10-23 13:03 <whitequark> overpriced
2014-10-23 13:05 <wpwrak> and very badly documented
2014-10-23 13:06 <wpwrak> i once tried to use one of their chip to make an in-circuit programmer. failed miserably because i couldn't toggle pins reliably. never found out whether it was just a documentation issue or a silicon limitation. lesson learned: use an USB MCU and accept that you need something already existing to bootstrap it.
2014-10-23 13:07 <wpwrak> so with ftid you're basically screwed if you leave the well-traveled path. and they also did a number of stunts like undocumented EEPROM content that took forever to reverse-engineer.
2014-10-23 13:08 <larsc> wpwrak: that kernel patch was a reply to the FTDI diver changes
2014-10-23 13:08 <wpwrak> so it's quite ironic that their chips are so popular in the free and open hardware development scene. these are not our friends.
2014-10-23 13:11 <wpwrak> larsc: ah, so it was meant to be a joke. and indeed, it does seem to actively alter the Vendor ID.
2014-10-23 13:13 <wpwrak> now this is nice ;-) http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb&m=141403510729881&w=2
2014-10-23 13:15 <larsc> yea, although it took me a while to realize that it was a joke
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2014-10-23 13:16 <wpwrak> yeah, the description doesn't make it clear that it actively breaks things
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2014-10-23 13:17 <wpwrak> greg got it, though. the checks and balances are working ;-)
2014-10-23 13:24 <larsc> yea, he's a bit smarter than me
2014-10-23 13:29 <wpwrak> or he had some early warning :)
2014-10-23 13:29 <DocScrutinizer05> huh?
2014-10-23 13:30 <DocScrutinizer05> please update me what i missed
2014-10-23 13:30 <DocScrutinizer05> looked to me like I said: patch to augment kernel driver with a self destruction function for counterfeit FTDI chips
2014-10-23 13:30 <whitequark> it was a parody
2014-10-23 13:31 <whitequark> the patch author works for TI, not FTDI
2014-10-23 13:31 <DocScrutinizer05> well, that's the question
2014-10-23 13:31 <wpwrak> helping the competition to sink their own product. nice ;-)
2014-10-23 13:32 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a parody when the author could be sure it won't get committed to linux kernel. Otherwise it's hilarious but not a joke
2014-10-23 13:32 <whitequark> if it would be committed to linux kernel, the linux kernel maintainers would be idiots
2014-10-23 13:32 <DocScrutinizer05> of course unless the code kills original FTDI chips and not the counterfeit ones
2014-10-23 13:32 <whitequark> and anyone could commit more malicious stuff in the blink of an eye
2014-10-23 13:33 <whitequark> like "goto fail"
2014-10-23 13:38 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb&m=141405129201389&w=2
2014-10-23 13:38 <larsc> who says that this isn't possible already ;)
2014-10-23 13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ((linux kernel maintainers would be idiots)) well, I wouldn't bet on NONE of them actually is ;-)
2014-10-23 13:42 <whitequark> then it is an excellent litmus check
2014-10-23 13:42 <whitequark> if a maintainer commits a patch like that, they stop being a maintainer
2014-10-23 13:42 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe indeed
2014-10-23 13:43 <DocScrutinizer05> actually GKH got a point in "better had saved that for April 1." anyway
2014-10-23 13:43 <larsc> mjg actually did that recently (Accept a stupid patch, than quit being a maintainer)
2014-10-23 13:44 <DocScrutinizer05> on IRC you could earn permaban for stuff like that (rm ;- r f )
2014-10-23 13:44 <whitequark> larsc: mjg?
2014-10-23 13:44 <whitequark> I mean, what patch?
2014-10-23 13:44 <whitequark> I know who mjg is
2014-10-23 13:44 <DocScrutinizer05> me not
2014-10-23 13:45 <whitequark> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Garrett
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2014-10-23 13:50 <larsc> whitequark: https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/20/574
2014-10-23 13:51 <whitequark> ah
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2014-10-23 13:55 <wpwrak> hmm, what was the problem ? the (ret) -> (ret != 0) ?
2014-10-23 13:55 <wpwrak> referring to this: https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/6/13/570
2014-10-23 13:55 <whitequark> commit name indicates it wasn't ready for mainline
2014-10-23 13:57 <larsc> google Nick Krause
2014-10-23 13:57 <wpwrak> Nick Krause is an American film and television actor
2014-10-23 13:57 <larsc> google Nick Krause Linux
2014-10-23 14:01 <wpwrak> lovely
2014-10-23 14:02 <wpwrak> so mjg is handing him a success ? miss a patch and the maintainer self-destructs ?
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2014-10-23 15:18 <rjeffries> wpwrak may or may not appreciate this gadget: https://www.cnx-software.com/2014/10/22/usb-armory-is-an-open-source-hardware-freescale-i-mx53-dongle-for-security-applications/
2014-10-23 15:22 <larsc> DocScrutinizer05 for sure does not appreciate it ;)
2014-10-23 15:27 <wpwrak> rjeffries: yes, i've seen it. looks like a nice platform for certain functionality. e.g., crypto containers and such.
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2014-10-23 19:43 <whitequark> http://www.itworld.com/article/2837889/german-publishers-capitulate-and-let-google-post-news-snippets-for-now.html
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2014-10-23 19:49 <rjeffries> wpwrak I did not take time to look at price of that dongle, but assume it is low cost. I am a poor judge of open-ness but it seems they are trying to have an open hardware platform.
2014-10-23 20:02 <rjeffries> a mumble about security and the password morass: anelok seems to be promising as best I can tell. I wonder if the following use case is supported: using anelok strictly as a secure password vault. That's how I use the (open) Android program Universal Password Manager (UPM). Yes, I then type in a password manually, and yes that fact influences my password construction a bit.
2014-10-23 20:04 <rjeffries> So the question I have is if a user wants a small relatively secure password vault and accepts they will look up passwords and type them in, how well will anelok support that workflow? It assumes a simple easy fast seach to find teh desired entry.
2014-10-23 20:04 <rjeffries> thx
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2014-10-23 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> larsc: nobody needs to use TZ cruft. And actually TZ comes with a side effect of usually no access to the secured conzent via booting a rescueOS or by flashing a new kernel. Usually those HS devices (TZ-enabled) only allow flashing new stuff after _complete_ erasute, which is absolutely fine for stuff like crypto containers
2014-10-23 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> erasure*
2014-10-23 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> not like a 89c1051 couldn't do same ;-)
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2014-10-23 20:29 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders who's "inverse path" and what they actually do
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2014-10-23 22:10 <nicksydney> wpwrak: you must be happy now http://dangerousprototypes.com/?p=83950
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2014-10-23 23:01 <wpwrak> nicksydney: cern are doing good work. what i don't like so much is that kicad is breaking the old "user experience". also, the newer versions are much slower than the older ones
2014-10-23 23:02 <nicksydney> wpwrak: is it because they are relying too much on GPU processing ?
2014-10-23 23:02 <nicksydney> to make the rendering faster ?
2014-10-23 23:03 <whitequark> GPU is certainly the way to go
2014-10-23 23:03 <wpwrak> yes, and the GPU-based part doesn't seem to be very usable for manual routing. so for that one has to use the old interface, which is now very slow
2014-10-23 23:07 <wpwrak> whitequark: dunno. it's not as if the drawing operations would be complex. and doing the same work used to be much faster in the past. on the same hardware.
2014-10-23 23:07 <wpwrak> i think it's mainly C++ bloat
2014-10-23 23:11 <whitequark> wpwrak: sure it's not your graphic drivers?
2014-10-23 23:11 <whitequark> (integrated intel should be perfect for this kind of stuff, not sure what you use though)
2014-10-23 23:12 <wpwrak> my pc from an earlier generation. has radeon and nvidia.
2014-10-23 23:12 <whitequark> ah, so nv.
2014-10-23 23:23 <nicksydney> wpwrak: that's the same issue i had previously when using the master branch
2014-10-23 23:24 <nicksydney> i'm using AMD