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2014-10-21 11:32 <sb0> DocScrutinizer05, http://debianfork.org/
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2014-10-21 12:06 <DocScrutinizer05> great!
2014-10-21 12:08 <DocScrutinizer05> in the end this might be a storm that cleans the air and puts those "it's desktop, and desktop only" distros to where they belong: a niche in linuxland for those who want a pseudo-windows
2014-10-21 12:18 <larsc> well, some people talk and some people walk
2014-10-21 12:18 <larsc> I think this is more talk than walk
2014-10-21 12:21 <whitequark> I'd expect that normal Debian process will resolve this, without these threats
2014-10-21 12:21 <whitequark> we'll see
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2014-10-21 12:28 <pcercuei> hopefully
2014-10-21 12:30 <mth> this article states that the real issue is that there is no alternative implementation for logind: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/debian-systemd-packaging-hoo-hah.html
2014-10-21 12:31 <mth> it's easy to be against something, but to make real progress it would be good to offer alternatives
2014-10-21 12:32 <mth> so instead of threatening to fork, actually fork, not in a hostile way but in a way to demonstrate a working system without systemd
2014-10-21 12:33 <whitequark> what?
2014-10-21 12:34 <whitequark> the systems worked perfectly without systemd, until some morons from GNOME decided it has to be a mandatory requirement.
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2014-10-21 12:36 <mth> having a GUI to administrate the system is in itself not a bad idea
2014-10-21 12:36 <mth> having a management API with only one implementation is the problem
2014-10-21 12:37 <whitequark> having a management API which is written for and only for a single GUI implementation is the issue
2014-10-21 12:37 <mth> in particular if that one implementation is suffering from scope creep
2014-10-21 12:37 <whitequark> it's in extension a poorly separated part of GNOME, which is a kitchen sink for whatever abstractions GNOME might want
2014-10-21 12:38 <whitequark> I definitely do not want a poorly separated part of GNOME to overtake every vital function on my system.
2014-10-21 12:43 <larsc> KDE will depend on systemd for session management
2014-10-21 12:44 <whitequark> so?
2014-10-21 13:03 <kyak> "a complex collection of dozens of tightly coupled binaries" -> coreutils? :)
2014-10-21 13:04 <whitequark> tightly coupled?
2014-10-21 13:04 <whitequark> (besides, it's not like I think coreutils are a marvel of engineering either)
2014-10-21 13:09 <kyak> most utilities from coreutils are designed to work with other utilities from coreutils. It's hard to imaging a one-liner without calling at least two utilities from coreutils
2014-10-21 13:09 <kyak> so yeah, tightly coupled
2014-10-21 13:09 <whitequark> I don't think you understand what "tight coupling" is
2014-10-21 13:09 <whitequark> the utilities from coreutils have a well-defined (if somewhat weak) interface: plaintext
2014-10-21 13:10 <whitequark> it's not going to change. grep is not going to suddenly start requiring json or \0 instead of \n.
2014-10-21 13:10 <whitequark> whereas in case of systemd, you have utilities which talk via a complex protocol which changes at will of the developers. it's neither documented nor guaranteed to stay same--indeed, it's essentially guaranteed to break often
2014-10-21 13:12 <kyak> is this what troubles veteran unix admins?
2014-10-21 13:13 <kyak> is it the technical side, like you described, what bothers them - or the phylosophical?
2014-10-21 13:13 <larsc> change is not good!
2014-10-21 13:13 <whitequark> there is no difference
2014-10-21 13:15 <whitequark> larsc: I'm not against change. I think it's time for sysvinit to go
2014-10-21 13:15 <whitequark> I just don't want the change to be done by incompetent people.
2014-10-21 13:16 <whitequark> say, I'd take upstart (still used in Chrome OS and some ?Ubuntu flavors) or initng (sadly, long dead) over systemd at any time of day
2014-10-21 13:16 <whitequark> I've used both when I maintained a sort of linux distribution (it was a bit like Angstrom, before Angstrom got popular)
2014-10-21 13:17 <kyak> i'll just watch for survival of the fittest
2014-10-21 13:17 <whitequark> the fittest is Windows XP, obviously
2014-10-21 13:18 <kyak> seems to be replaced slowly but steadily, so no
2014-10-21 13:19 <whitequark> consider this: lots of people are actively trying to get rid of Windows XP, and it still has how much more market share than all of GNU/Linux distros combined? 10x?
2014-10-21 13:20 <kyak> this proves that people are slow to accept changes
2014-10-21 13:20 <whitequark> in my view, this proves that Windows XP is a much better OS
2014-10-21 13:21 <kyak> if so, than sysvinit is much worse than systemd :)
2014-10-21 13:21 <kyak> because people are voting
2014-10-21 13:22 <kyak> even more, there is no good alternative to systemd.. because if it was, wouldn't the comminuty eagerly use it?
2014-10-21 13:22 <kyak> in other words - if systemd is bad, why is it so popular?
2014-10-21 13:22 <whitequark> if smoking kills you, why is it so popular?
2014-10-21 13:23 <whitequark> please, learn to troll better, or something, and then return
2014-10-21 13:23 <kyak> you can make many analogies, but this doesn't answer the question
2014-10-21 13:23 <kyak> i'm not trolling ffs.
2014-10-21 13:23 <kyak> but you just finished this conversaion
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2014-10-21 13:57 <ysionneau> for those who haven't seen it: http://forkfedora.org/
2014-10-21 13:59 <kyak> hilarious :)
2014-10-21 14:01 <jbenedetto> along with http://debianfork.org/
2014-10-21 14:03 <kyak> really?
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2014-10-21 14:28 <wpwrak> bah. i can top this: /etc/rc.d/init.d/sendmail -> #!/bin/sh   exec /etc/my-scripts/sendmail-init
2014-10-21 14:28 <wpwrak> see, just one line. clearly, my system is superior ;-)
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2014-10-21 14:29 <pcercuei> it won't work, it's a co,,ent
2014-10-21 14:29 <pcercuei> comment*
2014-10-21 14:29 <ysionneau> in two lines :)
2014-10-21 14:30 <ysionneau> wpwrak: I just double click on the sendmail icon on my desktop, no one can beat that!
2014-10-21 14:32 <wpwrak> i guess the next step would be to have it running somewhere in the cloud ;-)
2014-10-21 14:33 <ysionneau> yeah more buzzwords
2014-10-21 14:33 <whitequark> you know, wpwrak, otherwise that would be fully
2014-10-21 14:33 <whitequark> funny*
2014-10-21 14:33 <wpwrak> yoda 2.0 ;-)
2014-10-21 14:33 <whitequark> except that a typical crappy startup really does depend on 10-20 external HTTP services that correspond to trivial Unix tools mostly
2014-10-21 14:33 <whitequark> it's extra fun when half of them is based on the same provider and they go down
2014-10-21 14:34 <wpwrak> ls -> listcloud.com ;-)
2014-10-21 14:34 <whitequark> it's squared more fun when after a year, half of them go on "an incredible journey"
2014-10-21 14:34 <whitequark> (see http://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com)
2014-10-21 14:35 <wpwrak> yeah. mergers and acquisitions have never been quite that much fun ;-))
2014-10-21 14:40 <kyak> all these letters.. were written by the same person --)
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2014-10-21 15:54 <mth> whitequark: so startups aren't selling their product when they get acquired, they're selling their employees?
2014-10-21 15:55 <pempernik> hey
2014-10-21 15:55 <mth> hi pempernik
2014-10-21 15:55 <pempernik> how are you mth?
2014-10-21 15:55 <mth> fine, thanks
2014-10-21 15:57 <pempernik> good day today.
2014-10-21 15:58 <pempernik> got confirmation for a grant to fund for my research
2014-10-21 15:58 <mth> what are you researching?
2014-10-21 15:59 <pempernik> nanofabrication stuff
2014-10-21 15:59 <eintopf> wow
2014-10-21 15:59 <pempernik> pushing the technology further using a particle-charged beam and self-assembly.
2014-10-21 16:00 <eintopf> how many atoms I need for one transistor?
2014-10-21 16:00 <eintopf> currently
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2014-10-21 16:03 <pempernik> 10
2014-10-21 16:03 <pempernik> 2 nm
2014-10-21 16:04 <pempernik> we're on the path to single atmo transistors
2014-10-21 16:04 <pempernik> atom
2014-10-21 16:12 <pempernik> im resposible for everything, which is empowering but also kinda intimidating
2014-10-21 16:13 <eintopf> oh, ok.
2014-10-21 16:13 <pempernik> yep
2014-10-21 16:14 <eintopf> and when I can put these things into my brain
2014-10-21 16:14 <pempernik> i got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it
2014-10-21 16:14 <pempernik> im picking up managerial skills oddly enough
2014-10-21 16:14 <eintopf> undergrad students are the best :)
2014-10-21 16:14 <pempernik> soon enough i hope :D
2014-10-21 16:15 <pempernik> we made a new superconducting computer chip recently
2014-10-21 16:15 <pempernik> thats like 50-100 times more energy efficient
2014-10-21 16:15 <pempernik> brb
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2014-10-21 16:27 <larsc> eintopf: summer interns are the best
2014-10-21 16:28 <whitequark> mth: not quite
2014-10-21 16:28 <whitequark> the team is selling themselves.
2014-10-21 16:28 <whitequark> usually at an acquihire, the company gets talent, and employees get to cash out their stock options.
2014-10-21 16:29 <whitequark> pempernik: "i got 6 benches, 4 undergrad students, funding for a master student, 2 postdocs and a professor on sabbatical working on it"
2014-10-21 16:29 <whitequark> should add something to the end so that it will sound like the las vegas quote :)
2014-10-21 16:30 <pempernik> sorry, im ignorant about that reference.
2014-10-21 16:32 <whitequark> https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fear_and_Loathing_in_Las_Vegas_(novel)#Part_1., 2nd paragraph
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2014-10-21 17:09 <qwebirc50791> hello
2014-10-21 17:10 <qwebirc50791> How I can to buy a SIE board, I am colombian?
2014-10-21 17:11 <pempernik> ebay?
2014-10-21 17:13 <qwebirc50791> If somebody can to help my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com
2014-10-21 17:13 <qwebirc50791> If somebody can to help me, my e-mail is hector.mejia.rondano@hotmail.com
2014-10-21 17:13 <qwebirc50791> Ok, thanks.
2014-10-21 17:19 <qwebirc50791> i don't find the sie board, pempernik can give a link?
2014-10-21 17:19 <qwebirc50791> of corse, of ebay link.
2014-10-21 17:30 <larsc> chances are quite low that you can still find one
2014-10-21 17:33 <qwebirc50791> what I want is http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/SIE
2014-10-21 17:48 <larsc> I know
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2014-10-21 17:49 <whitequark> there are plenty of similar boards these days, easier to obtain and even cheaper
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2014-10-21 23:51 <wpwrak> hmm ... Veteran Unix Admins ... so i guess, if it should come to forking, the appropriate name for the debian fork would be "Cthulux", Great Old One
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