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2014-08-28 05:29 <nicksydney> wpwrak: http://hackaday.io/project/2879-ESP8266-WiFi-Module-Library
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2014-08-28 07:11 <wpwrak> nicksydney: does not seem to intend to go below that AT command layer. for proper networking, you need to go far below that.
2014-08-28 07:11 <nicksydney> wpwrak: you lost me there
2014-08-28 07:11 <nicksydney> :)
2014-08-28 07:12 <wpwrak> as i understand it, the critter implements TCP/IP for you and you operate at the level of TCP connections (or similar), correct ?
2014-08-28 07:13 <nicksydney> yeah...the stack is pre-programmed in the chip and you can't change it ...so you just communicate with it via SPI or UART
2014-08-28 07:13 <wpwrak> this means that the whole stack is frozen in the firmware. there are LOTS of functions in the stack that systems like linux implement on the host. and these are functions that change all the time, due to enhancements, bug fixes, evolving standards.
2014-08-28 07:15 <nicksydney> right....so i guess with that price probably you will get something very simple as long as you can connect to internet i suppose....will not have the capability of linux based stack
2014-08-28 07:16 <wpwrak> ironically, the technical capabilities must be there. underneath the firmware that implements that AT command set. so if you crack that layer, you'd have something even cheaper, but at the same time uncrippled
2014-08-28 07:18 <nicksydney> correct me if i'm wrong so looking at how it is able to sell the chip so cheap...does this mean that we can just take a Cortex-M0 (for example) and run the wifi stack (if available) on it ?
2014-08-28 07:19 <nicksydney> if that's true does this also means that the signal processing 2.4ghz (?) is processed by the stack too ?
2014-08-28 07:20 <eintopf> huhu
2014-08-28 07:21 <wpwrak> you could run some stack on a lowly ARM if you knew how to talk to the MAC / PHY layer in the chip
2014-08-28 07:21 <wpwrak> and no, signal processing is done in hardware. you can't bit-bang 2.4 GHz ;-)
2014-08-28 07:23 <larsc> well you rarely process the whole 2.4GHz anyway
2014-08-28 07:23 <wpwrak> larsc: now you're adding confusing details ;-)
2014-08-28 07:25 <eintopf> that's sdr, or?
2014-08-28 07:29 <larsc> 2.4GHz is your carrier frequency, the signal itself has a much lower bandwidth
2014-08-28 07:32 <nicksydney> wpwrak: "MAC / PHY layer in the chip" ... can you explain in human way please :)
2014-08-28 07:33 <nicksydney> so let's start from signal coming in...does that being processed by the chip itself or some other different chip ?
2014-08-28 07:33 <nicksydney> oh BTW olimex is releasing a board with this chip http://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/new-uart-to-wifi-chipset-will-unleash-low-cost-internet-of-things/ :)
2014-08-28 07:33 <nicksydney> all aboard on WiFi please :)
2014-08-28 07:37 <eintopf> it's simple if you have more mac functionality in the chip you don't can't access the phy layer. What you get is only the mac layer. If this is correct :/
2014-08-28 07:38 <eintopf> for example I have some 802.15.4 chips with hardware address filters -> hardware address is normally mac functionality but it will decrease the work of the mcu... because the chip filters if the frame is yours or not
2014-08-28 07:39 <eintopf> I mean the filter of hardware addresses is normally mac functionality...
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2014-08-28 07:39 <eintopf> but it depends hardware filters are great, but sometimes FULL MAC handling sucks
2014-08-28 07:40 <nicksydney> eintopf: MAC address you referring is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address right ?
2014-08-28 07:42 <eintopf> yes
2014-08-28 07:42 <eintopf> for example you ethernet card has also a mac address filter
2014-08-28 07:43 <eintopf> if it don't have a filter you will get all packets on the phy layer and linux decide if this frame belongs to you or something others
2014-08-28 07:43 <eintopf> this will increase the counts of interrupts and workload, etc...
2014-08-28 07:44 <eintopf> it's normally mac functionality to check the address but sometimes this is done in your phy.
2014-08-28 07:44 <larsc> on the other hand doing things in the MAC might prevent you from doing things you want to do because the MAC doesn't allow you to
2014-08-28 07:44 <eintopf> Now this makes sense to do this on the chip as MAC functionality, but full mac functionality is ugly.
2014-08-28 07:44 <nicksydney> i see...interesting... understand better now
2014-08-28 07:45 <eintopf> cool :-) I explain something
2014-08-28 07:45 <eintopf> on my bad english
2014-08-28 07:45 <eintopf> s/on/with
2014-08-28 07:45 <qi-bot> eintopf meant: "with my bad english"
2014-08-28 07:45 <eintopf> qi-bot: thanks
2014-08-28 07:46 <nicksydney> so normally proper 'WiFi' chip  have the MAC/PHY layer in the chip firmware ...are there any other layer that are included in the WiFi chip itself ?
2014-08-28 07:46 <eintopf> nicksydney: full mac is "doing all mac stuff on the phy and abstract a protocol"
2014-08-28 07:47 <eintopf> nicksydney: depends :-)
2014-08-28 07:47 <eintopf> maybe somebody has the idea to abstract a protocol for IP
2014-08-28 07:47 <eintopf> and yes these exists -> example contiki
2014-08-28 07:48 <eintopf> contiki is some IoT sensor operting system, you can send via tun/tap and slip IPv6 packets to it. Then contiki translate it to 802.15.4/6LoWPAN
2014-08-28 07:49 <nicksydney> eintopf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiki ?
2014-08-28 07:49 <eintopf> more or less...
2014-08-28 07:49 <eintopf> nicksydney: yes
2014-08-28 07:49 <eintopf> but what I describe is to run contiki with linux
2014-08-28 07:50 <eintopf> what I mean is this: http://contiki.sourceforge.net/docs/2.6/a01693.html
2014-08-28 07:50 <eintopf> "The SLIP protocol is a very simple way to transmit IP packets over a serial line."
2014-08-28 07:51 <eintopf> then you have also IP/MAC/PHY layer on the chip
2014-08-28 07:52 <eintopf> "doing all mac stuff on the phy and abstract a protocol" -> meant s/phy/rf chip/
2014-08-28 07:52 <eintopf> :-)
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2014-08-28 07:53 <nicksydney> so basically the 'WiFi Chip' will do all the heavyweight of making the packet available to OS in the format that the OS networking stack understand it ?
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2014-08-28 07:54 <eintopf> you mean contiki now?
2014-08-28 07:54 <eintopf> mhh
2014-08-28 07:55 <eintopf> If the wifi chip do more layers then you can't access these layers easily from your OS, that's what larsc said
2014-08-28 07:55 <eintopf> and this sucks :)
2014-08-28 07:55 <eintopf> and maybe you need some adaptation layer to adapt this in the OS layer
2014-08-28 07:56 <eintopf> because if the chip to some MAC stuff, it's not standard and they doing they own stuff there (you are lucky if you find any documentation about that)
2014-08-28 07:57 <eintopf> about the question "how they abstract the mac layer"
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2014-08-28 07:57 <eintopf> but mac functionality like address filters are okay on the rf chip ;)
2014-08-28 07:58 <eintopf> that doesn't suck
2014-08-28 07:58 <eintopf> okay if you can't disable them, then it sucks
2014-08-28 07:59 <eintopf> but normally you can disable them (promisocus mode, or something else)
2014-08-28 08:00 <nicksydney> interesting thanks for that
2014-08-28 08:00 <eintopf> you are welcome, I hope it's correct what I said
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2014-08-28 09:55 <DocScrutinizer05> !moo
2014-08-28 10:02 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<eintopf> if it don't have a filter you will get all packets on the phy layer and linux decide if this frame belongs to you or something others)) which is then called promiscuous or monitor mode. E.G. wireshark using this, as well as tools like airodump etc do
2014-08-28 10:07 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<eintopf> If the wifi chip do more layers then you can't access these layers easily from your OS,  <eintopf> and this sucks))  depends. For embedded battery-powered it's essential, since otherwise your heavy main CPU is running all the time, doing low-level MAC stuff. Worst is when your WiFi doesn't even do address filtering, since then the CPU basically needs to handle all "noise" and nonsense that comes in over the air, to see
2014-08-28 10:07 <DocScrutinizer05> if it's relevant or not
2014-08-28 10:11 <DocScrutinizer05> the trick is to provide API for those lower level function in your WiFi interface to machine, so machine can decide to e.g. do address filtering on main CPU (= promiscuousmonitor mode) or let WiFi FULLMAC do that on its power economic small CPU. Same even for raw mode which e.g. gets used to do AP on N900's 1253 WiFi. Raw mode is the most low level interface to WiFi radio, basically bypassing *all* on-chip protocol layers. The radio
2014-08-28 10:11 <DocScrutinizer05> shall send whatever raw bit data you send to it (also receive, obviously)
2014-08-28 10:16 <DocScrutinizer05> on 1253/12xx you need some hack done by a gifted linux hacker to access raw mode in the chip
2014-08-28 10:17 <DocScrutinizer05> since 1253 usually runs in FULLMAC mode, and the raw mode API isn't usually exposed/available
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2014-08-28 10:46 <DocScrutinizer05> on a completely unrelated sidenote: whitepaper abour InfraRed subsystem in Neo900 -> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1437131#post1437131
2014-08-28 11:00 <DocScrutinizer05> daily hacking (non-EE): we all know how to catch a fly by *slowly* moving a glass over it so it doesn't trigger the insect's optical threshold for changes in vicinity. What's supposedly new however is to use a glas from freezer, so the fly, once caught in the glass, gets stiff and lifeless during just 15 seconds ;-P
2014-08-28 11:03 <DocScrutinizer05> very convenient since the most tricky two parts of the "catch the fly" operation are a) put a lid on the glass without letting fly escape and b) move the fly outside or kill it without it escaping and returning to your room during that
2014-08-28 11:03 <DocScrutinizer05> a frozen fly won't escape and as well won't return into your room when you throw it out the window
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2014-08-28 13:40 <DocScrutinizer51> wpwrak: (scope midi) http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140828_001.jpg ;-D
2014-08-28 14:02 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer51: for convenient fly elimination, i have this: http://content.oppictures.com/Master_Images/Master_Variants/Variant_500/147907.JPG
2014-08-28 14:02 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer51: though flies rarely bother me. seems that they're too lazy to fly so high. mosquitos, on the other hand ..
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2014-08-28 14:03 <DocScrutinizer51> eliminating flies that sit on your monitor takes special care
2014-08-28 14:04 <wpwrak> (midi) yeah. but i don't really see it as a convenience improvement. your visual feedback would be on the pc while the signal is on the scope. and you have that control box sitting somewhere in the middle -> messy
2014-08-28 14:04 <DocScrutinizer51> yeah, ordinarey flies fly l.ow
2014-08-28 14:06 <DocScrutinizer51> (scope)@8md either place all three items next to each oother, or at least move that HID I linked above to where I'm currently working. Optical feedback freom PC is not the idea
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2014-08-28 14:08 <wpwrak> hmm, then you're limited to basically moving the scope's controls to new buttons. you normally can't upload images (for UI feedback) to a scope.
2014-08-28 14:08 <wpwrak> so i don't think what you're thinking of would really work. but of course, it'll be interesting to see what you come up with ;-)
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2014-08-28 14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> moving/replicating that unbearable thousand-turns knob to a proper scratchrecord turntable and same time accelerate it properly, like a mouse, would be the easiest exercise
2014-08-28 14:16 <DocScrutinizer05> much better solution than powertool with clutch to spin the scope's knob a 654893 times - from 0 to 80000th frame
2014-08-28 14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> even numeric input, though admittedly without written / optical feedback to check if you did a typo, would be possible. Then let a macro spin the thousandturns exactly to the value you entered via keypad
2014-08-28 14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I have a *lot* of ideas how to improve the UI, and I have a pretty good idea of what's feasible and what's not
2014-08-28 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> store complete parameter banks, and recall them later
2014-08-28 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> needs pretty little feedback beyond maybe the STO06 button shortly flashing to signal it's done
2014-08-28 14:21 <wpwrak> that 1000 turns knob's function changes with context. and the scope won't tell you in which mode the UI is. so you'd have to move the whole control to the midi device. and then you lose all intermediate feedback elements.
2014-08-28 14:21 <DocScrutinizer51> and I'm only starting... ;)
2014-08-28 14:22 <wpwrak> so you're getting a siglent with 1000 turns knob now ? :)
2014-08-28 14:23 <DocScrutinizer51> well, when the API is crap then obviously you cannot tell scope "turn button C right 488 clicks"
2014-08-28 14:24 <DocScrutinizer51> no way I get me a siglent
2014-08-28 14:25 <DocScrutinizer51> tbh since those scopes all have a USB host jack, I'd even expect them to genuinely support kbd, mouse etc
2014-08-28 14:28 <wpwrak> (API) "press that button for me" functions are not commonly part of the host interface. they can exist but i wouldn't count on it. e.g., rigol don't have them: http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS2072/ds2072_doc_5.pdf
2014-08-28 14:29 <wpwrak> and no, they don't normally do anything sensible with keyboard and mouse. that would be overly sane ;-)
2014-08-28 14:29 <wpwrak> so these fancy "arbitrary measurement expressions" in the rigol mean entering your formulas by turning and pushing knobs ...
2014-08-28 14:30 <DocScrutinizer51> FSCKIT such fools
2014-08-28 14:31 <DocScrutinizer51> that's why I asked so insistingly about the API
2014-08-28 14:31 <wpwrak> well, what you could do with these expressions is to write a tool on the PC that lets you send them via SCPI. that's certainly an improvement. not quite what you had in mind, though.
2014-08-28 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> can it query *all* UI status and settings?
2014-08-28 14:32 <wpwrak> UI ? no
2014-08-28 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> ohdamn!
2014-08-28 14:33 <wpwrak> the actual measurement system, maybe
2014-08-28 14:33 <DocScrutinizer05> that stuff is insane
2014-08-28 14:33 <wpwrak> i mean you have the "core", samples, triggers, pass/fail, etc. and then on top you have a UI to set it up and to read out data. and you have an API to do the same
2014-08-28 14:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I already see me REing the (*cough*) "OS" of that critter
2014-08-28 14:34 <wpwrak> but the API isn't layered on top of the UI.
2014-08-28 14:34 <wpwrak> you should have a look at that rigol "programming manual" (link above). that's give you an idea of what to expect
2014-08-28 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I prolly only need a PEEK and POKE ;-P
2014-08-28 14:35 <DocScrutinizer05> right, the link. On proper PC I can have a look
2014-08-28 14:36 <wpwrak> what it does essentially allow you to do is take full control of the scope and make it do its things. but it won't help much with plugging holes in the UI. maybe you can get this to work for some operations, but i'd expect it to be messy. also because you'd be switching the scope in and out of remote mode all the some.
2014-08-28 14:40 <wpwrak> i'm actually not even sure if you can remotely command the rigol to exit remote mode or whether you have to press a button for that.
2014-08-28 14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> WHAT??
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2014-08-28 14:42 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf *is* "remote mode"?
2014-08-28 14:42 <wpwrak> the DS1000C* series had commands to simulate keypresses. but that doesn't seem to be available in the DS2000. dunno about DS1000Z
2014-08-28 14:43 <DocScrutinizer05> do you say this thing doesn't accept remote commands until switched into a special mode? in which it maybe doesn't accept UI commands anymore (except the one command "leave remote mode")?
2014-08-28 14:43 <wpwrak> when you send an SCPI command, the scope disables the UI, to prevent the user from interfering with the remote control
2014-08-28 14:43 <wpwrak> you have to explicitly re-enable the UI after remote operation is complete
2014-08-28 14:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ohnoes!
2014-08-28 14:44 <wpwrak> maybe now you understand my doubts about your MIDI plan :)
2014-08-28 14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> that's so terribly braindamaged I'd like to buy one device just to smash it into the devels' head
2014-08-28 14:45 <DocScrutinizer05> when otoh you can terminate or commit a remote sequence via a special remote command then it makes sense
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> what's that?:
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> :SYSTem:SETup <setup_data>
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> :SYSTem:SETup?
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Description
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Send the file data ofRead the file data ofthethesystemsystemsetup.
2014-08-28 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> setup.
2014-08-28 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> dacapo for pdf
2014-08-28 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/Rigol/DS2072/ds2072_doc_5.pdf 426
2014-08-28 14:47 <wpwrak> kinda cryptic, eh ? :)
2014-08-28 14:49 <wpwrak> the DS1000Z can unlock the UI remotely. :SYST:LOCK 0
2014-08-28 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> it's not that cryptic in the pdf, just the c&p failed to keep rows separate
2014-08-28 14:50 <wpwrak> i think the older 1000 had that, too. alas, i can't test since the communications board is fried in mine :(
2014-08-28 14:51 <DocScrutinizer05> but what's "system setup" and might it offer some way to mess with this thing? I mean, it seems a raw blob of data
2014-08-28 14:51 <wpwrak> (cryptic) i mean that it doesn't tell you what that command really does.
2014-08-28 14:51 <wpwrak> yeah, exactly :)
2014-08-28 14:51 <DocScrutinizer05> to me that sounds like a memdump of the complete config/parameter area
2014-08-28 14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> so -> my PEEK and POKE?
2014-08-28 14:52 <wpwrak> "these are our global variables. enjoy ! oh, and by the way, they'll be elsewhere and change their meaning in the next minor firmware revision." :)
2014-08-28 14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, that's pretty much expected
2014-08-28 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, a diff will give away meaning of most bytes, no?
2014-08-28 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> dump systemconfig, toggle some option, dump again, diff
2014-08-28 14:53 <wpwrak> it's at least something you can try to play with. dunno how far it goes.
2014-08-28 14:54 <wpwrak> maybe ask on eevblog if anyone has already tried to make sense of this
2014-08-28 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> stuff like :SYStem:BEEPer doesn't make me smile. I'd expect a subcommand to make the thing *emit* a beep, not only to enable or disable the beeper
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2014-08-28 14:55 <wpwrak> just send n invalid command and it'll beep angrily ;-)
2014-08-28 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> seems you can query every parameter that's listed in the API
2014-08-28 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> HAHAHA
2014-08-28 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> :-P
2014-08-28 14:56 <wpwrak> yup, all parameters should be queriable
2014-08-28 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> :TIMebase:DELay:ENABle?
2014-08-28 14:57 <DocScrutinizer05> :TIMebase:DELay:OFFSet <offset>
2014-08-28 14:57 <DocScrutinizer05> :TIMebase:DELay:OFFSet?
2014-08-28 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> so yeah, mixed mode interaction, like "select left cursor on scope button press" -> "move cursor position on midi turntable" might not be possible at all
2014-08-28 14:59 <DocScrutinizer05> but for sure something like "change parameter most recently changed, via turntable" should be completely feasible
2014-08-28 15:00 <wpwrak> pheew ...
2014-08-28 15:01 <DocScrutinizer05> and generally the idea is to *not* have several submenus on the luxury midi tablet, but assign a dedicated button to the 20 most needed parameters you wanna change
2014-08-28 15:02 <wpwrak> yes, if you have a knob for every single parameter of the scope, then you can do that. but i'm not sure it's quite feasible.
2014-08-28 15:04 <DocScrutinizer05> so instead of selecting "cursor"->"left"->"position" form a 3-level-menu-hierarchy on scope, and then use the turntable to adjust the cursor pos, I rather have a pushbutton "adjust left cursor pos" on midi tab and then it's clear what turntable does after that button got pressed and is lit
2014-08-28 15:05 <DocScrutinizer05> the idea is exactly NOT to have a button "for every possible function" but a convenient way to adjust a dozen or two parameters that I select to my liking
2014-08-28 15:06 <DocScrutinizer05> the exotic rarely used functions are fine on scope UI
2014-08-28 15:12 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, I guess it's kinda useful
2014-08-28 15:12 <DocScrutinizer05> and the most interesting question would be: will Rigol fix bugs when you run into some?
2014-08-28 15:13 <DocScrutinizer05> and how long does that take?
2014-08-28 15:16 <ysionneau> win 17
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2014-08-28 15:46 <hozer> anyone heard about the ESP wifi module for $5 yet
2014-08-28 15:46 <hozer> it's got a Tensilica Xtensa architecture core in it
2014-08-28 15:47 <hozer> http://hackaday.com/2014/08/26/new-chip-alert-the-esp8266-wifi-module-its-5/
2014-08-28 15:49 <ysionneau> I think this got linked here
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2014-08-28 20:53 <wpwrak> funny. this morning, TI MCU spam. around noon. freescale community spam. now spansion design spam. i wonder if these companies realize how totally useless their "newsletters" are
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