2014-08-26 00:21 <DocScrutinizer05> HAH! skyscraper syndrome?
2014-08-26 00:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I thought your building has only 11 stories
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2014-08-26 02:13 <wpwrak> naw, 14 floors of apartments, top floor is duplex, and if you count the terrace you'd have 16 in total
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2014-08-26 07:01 <whitequa1k> DocScrutinizer05: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1951
2014-08-26 07:06 <nicksydney> wpwrak: http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/WiFi-Serial-Transceiver-Module-w-ESP8266-p-1994.html
2014-08-26 07:11 <nicksydney> lowcost WiFi anyone http://espressif.com/en/products/esp8266/ :)
2014-08-26 07:11 <nicksydney> in Taoboa the same board cost 20RM (~3.5bucks) http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.1.w4004-6565671699.5.MSYwfV&id=40328222213
2014-08-26 07:19 <ysionneau> that's cool to see a self calibrating RF :)
2014-08-26 07:19 <ysionneau> no factory calibration to do \o/
2014-08-26 07:55 <eintopf> wpwrak: http://www.golem.de/news/besitzer-leicht-verletzt-smartphone-in-hosentasche-explodiert-1408-108807.html
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2014-08-26 12:28 <wpwrak> nicksydney: wow, nice price. now it just has to be open for custom firmaware ... :)
2014-08-26 12:28 <nicksydney> wpwrak: according to the doc (in Chinese) and spec it communicate via serial so this means that even Arduino can communicate with it ?
2014-08-26 12:30 <wpwrak> yeah, but if you have a real operating system, you don't want a canned stack.
2014-08-26 12:31 <nicksydney> what you mean canned stack ?
2014-08-26 12:32 <wpwrak> a tcp/ip stack that you can't change
2014-08-26 12:32 <nicksydney> ahh you referring to the fact that most probably you can't flash the IC with new firmware
2014-08-26 12:36 <nicksydney> wpwrak: in that case this is suitable then http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/preorder-WRTnode-Open-Source-and-Mini-OpenWRT-Dev-Board-p-1980.html?cPath=19_20
2014-08-26 12:37 <wpwrak> i'd expect that you can, technically. but nothing is documented. cpu architecture, register structure, flash procedure, etc.
2014-08-26 12:37 <wpwrak> yes, but then we're already on the more traditional price ranges ...
2014-08-26 12:37 <wpwrak> ... and huge size as well
2014-08-26 12:38 <nicksydney> yeah...there is one more IC that I found..hang on let me find out
2014-08-26 12:38 <nicksydney> http://www.ofeixin.com/English/Product/Wifi%20Module/
2014-08-26 12:44 <wpwrak> that's modules, with realtek chips. realtek are usually friendly, yes
2014-08-26 12:45 <wpwrak> these modules could indeed be nice. lacks details, though.
2014-08-26 12:47 <nicksydney> the realtek/mediatek chip is not easy to source...can't get it from big wholesaler...only can get from taobao
2014-08-26 12:56 <wpwrak> yes, this type of chips is always hard to find. problem is that the big distributors don't seem to like cn/tw chips
2014-08-26 12:56 <DocScrutinizer05> well, for some reason
2014-08-26 12:57 <wpwrak> naw, if you buy from the factory, you have your supply chain well enough under control
2014-08-26 12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> the only way to know what you got there on your palm is to use stuff like xray and excessive testing gear
2014-08-26 12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> well, then yes
2014-08-26 12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> sometimes
2014-08-26 12:58 <wpwrak> digi-key and such could do that. then you're pretty safe. but now you're forced to buy from unknown resellers and get all the risks.
2014-08-26 12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2014-08-26 12:58 <wpwrak> i'd view these preferences more an act of protectionism
2014-08-26 12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> another problem is mere payment
2014-08-26 12:59 <wpwrak> hmm ?
2014-08-26 13:00 <DocScrutinizer05> well, a million copycats in CN demonstrate every day that you got the loser part when it comes to enforcing your rights against someone in CN that ran a scam on you
2014-08-26 13:01 <DocScrutinizer05> heck, I'm pondering to *fly over there* just for some 5k of components
2014-08-26 13:02 <wpwrak> you could still return home with a bag of bad parts ;-)
2014-08-26 13:02 <DocScrutinizer05> funny thing: seems the chinese feel all the same about their chances to get money from western countries for the goods they ship
2014-08-26 13:02 <nicksydney> sometimes the company is good and able to tell you which reseller to buy it from....that's what happened when I was looking for RA8875 and they send me the dsitributor contact to buy it from for overseas mkt
2014-08-26 13:02 <wpwrak> and yes, forget enforcement. but that's a cross-border problem anywhere
2014-08-26 13:03 <DocScrutinizer05> no, I have zilch problems to sue some idiot in italy or spain or UK when they sell me crap
2014-08-26 13:04 <wpwrak> many companies are nice, though, especially chinese. if you complain, they don't just ignore you.
2014-08-26 13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> even in USA I guess I have good chances to get any scammer arrested
2014-08-26 13:05 <wpwrak> .it and .es are basically slave states to the .eu, where .de is one of the rulers ;-) (not the .de population, though. just your betters.)
2014-08-26 13:06 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway this international trading is a PITA
2014-08-26 13:06 <wpwrak> .us ... good luck :) you may succeed if you put enough effort into it, but i mean, how much do you really want to spend on revenge ?
2014-08-26 13:06 <wpwrak> yes
2014-08-26 13:07 <DocScrutinizer05> I evaluated option to get a 300 N900 devices from HK
2014-08-26 13:07 <DocScrutinizer05> ouch!
2014-08-26 13:08 <DocScrutinizer05> "send 30k EUR, then wait a 3 weeks for your 20 bricks in a cardboard box to arrive"
2014-08-26 13:09 <DocScrutinizer05> #s/20 bricks/<whatever junk they thought would be funny in there>/
2014-08-26 13:09 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: ticket to HK is not expensive nowadays :)
2014-08-26 13:09 <DocScrutinizer05> I know
2014-08-26 13:09 <DocScrutinizer05> but then what?
2014-08-26 13:09 <wpwrak> first find out where they keep them :) the company may be in .hk but their warehouse can be far far away
2014-08-26 13:10 <DocScrutinizer05> "Ders Sir, Madam! We soory inform our sales has suffered delay, please agrre on new meeting in 9 days"
2014-08-26 13:10 <nicksydney> i have experience in textile before helping my uncle few years ago....we have to fly to China to look at the goods ourself and we stand there until they pack everything into the container and we went with them to the port until it is released to the custom and then we left :)
2014-08-26 13:11 <nicksydney> wpwrak: https://github.com/iabdalkader/openmv
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2014-08-26 13:11 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: prepare meetings with >1 companies. if one of they bounces you, you just ignore them. chances are very slim that they'll do that to you out of spite.
2014-08-26 13:12 <wpwrak> nicksydney: sounds like a good strategy :)
2014-08-26 13:12 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly the strategy I planned for the 300 N900
2014-08-26 13:13 <nicksydney> HK is easier for shipping as their process are very streamlined compared to China and they are good in helping foreigners nowadays.....don't know how China is now !
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2014-08-26 13:13 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: you should also calculate costs with a generous safety margin. so if you get a batch of 100 bad devices, you can absorb the loss
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2014-08-26 13:14 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, I'm aware of all that
2014-08-26 13:14 <DocScrutinizer05> it's however not as simple when we talk about high priced goods
2014-08-26 13:14 <DocScrutinizer05> or large quantities
2014-08-26 13:15 <wpwrak> nicksydney: what i've heard, "complex". you also have a whole transport and customs agents mafia involved that probably doesn't want to you hang around
2014-08-26 13:15 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: get 100 units and indicate that you'll come back for more if you're happy
2014-08-26 13:16 <wpwrak> at some point you'll also have to worry about .de customs. e.g., beyond some value the paperwork may get a lot more intense
2014-08-26 13:17 <DocScrutinizer05> wow!! I just got an epic err "SPAM"(?)
2014-08-26 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> actually beyond some point the paperwork tends to get more simple
2014-08-26 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> you just do the usual things
2014-08-26 13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> (if you're not doing sth unusual)
2014-08-26 13:19 <wpwrak> well, once you cross a certain threshold, it reaches peak complexity, but doesn't get much worse after that. correct :)
2014-08-26 13:19 <DocScrutinizer05> every day there arrive a few thousands of containers from HK, CN etc at sea harbors in Germany. Quite simple stuff to process them I guess
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2014-08-26 13:20 <wpwrak> so it's a pain if you're near the threshold (however it's defined in .de), but after that, importing 10x the stuff is not significantly harder
2014-08-26 13:20 <DocScrutinizer05> but you can afford throwing 10 times the effort and expense at it, making it 10 times easier basically
2014-08-26 13:22 <wpwrak> no, not really. you don't really gain anything by putting 10 times the effort. you just have to do the bureaucratic procedure. but that's "single-threaded"
2014-08-26 13:22 <DocScrutinizer05> the maximum relative hassle been my "import" of a N900 donation, it took me 12.73EUR VAT payment and a whole afternoon proceeding to remote customs office and getting the N900 evaluated and cleared there
2014-08-26 13:23 <wpwrak> did you have to contract a customs agent ?
2014-08-26 13:23 <wpwrak> (broker)
2014-08-26 13:23 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: nope. The point is: at a certain threshold not *I* do that anymore
2014-08-26 13:23 <DocScrutinizer05> no broker. That concept is unknown here in germany
2014-08-26 13:24 <DocScrutinizer05> at least on that level of sub-1000g private parcels
2014-08-26 13:24 <wpwrak> yes, exactly. the simple process is: you go to customs and do the formalities with them. the complex / general process: you do the (more involved) formalities with your customs broker who then goes to customs and repeats the stuff with them.
2014-08-26 13:24 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe there are broker services for containers
2014-08-26 13:25 <wpwrak> well, maybe you can present the papers yourself. but you still need an intermediary.
2014-08-26 13:25 <DocScrutinizer05> nfc
2014-08-26 13:25 <wpwrak> e.g., once i brought a few pcs for a demo at a conference from .ch to .de
2014-08-26 13:26 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh, THAT is hassle
2014-08-26 13:26 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't want to import them, just bring them in temporarily
2014-08-26 13:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I know that from 1984 when we moved a DELCOM256 video wall computer and monitors to Strasbourg. Took us 4h at frontier to clear the papers
2014-08-26 13:27 <wpwrak> for the "temporary import", i had to go to a trading/brokerage (dunno the exact term) company in .ch, get them to prepare the paperwork, then present it on entry, and on exit (not to the friedly guy who asks you if you have something to declare but in a back office, with a wait)
2014-08-26 13:27 <wpwrak> yeah, that sort :)
2014-08-26 13:27 <wpwrak> for large-scale import/export it's similar
2014-08-26 13:28 <nicksydney> wpwrak: http://vonger.cn/
2014-08-26 13:28 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmm, the patent is from 1988???
2014-08-26 13:29 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.google.com/patents/US4734779
2014-08-26 13:30 <DocScrutinizer05> oops, it's not about DELCOM-256, it just mentions it
2014-08-26 13:31 <DocScrutinizer05> NMT was a funny time in my professional career
2014-08-26 13:31 <wpwrak> whitequa1k: this has tldr potential :) he seems to be heading in the direction of "what's unfamiliar and implicitly adverse makes us uncomfortable", isn't he ?
2014-08-26 13:34 <DocScrutinizer05> been there before: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2013-04-12.log.html#t17:36
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2014-08-26 13:36 <DocScrutinizer05> (large scale import) 300 units don't usually qualify for that (unless it's 300 cars or sth like that)
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2014-08-26 13:37 <DocScrutinizer05> 300 N900 devices for sure are exactly in between, where you can ruin yourself when shit hits the fan, but not large enaough yet to get into "the comfort zone of large scale"
2014-08-26 13:38 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe I could order door-to-door service from seller ;-P
2014-08-26 13:39 <DocScrutinizer05> let *them* fly here, instead of me flying to CN
2014-08-26 13:39 <whitequa1k> wpwrak: no, not at all
2014-08-26 13:39 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: dream on ! ;-)
2014-08-26 13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I know African dope dealers offer such service ;-P
2014-08-26 13:40 <whitequa1k> tl;dr could be something like "we can only sensibly define consciousness as a process participating in the arrow of time"
2014-08-26 13:40 <whitequa1k> i.e. an "uploaded" mind is not actually conscious
2014-08-26 13:41 <wpwrak> you mean uploaded + stored, but not "running" ?
2014-08-26 13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> I stopped reading 5 words after the big red warning
2014-08-26 13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> tl;dr especially for a joke
2014-08-26 13:42 <whitequa1k> DocScrutinizer05: it's not a joke.
2014-08-26 13:42 <whitequa1k> the warning is for excessively pedantic people who want everything defined with 100% rigor
2014-08-26 13:43 <DocScrutinizer05> then i'm sorry for the guy, he managed to waste my and his time
2014-08-26 13:43 <whitequa1k> the text is serious and way more interesting than some of the supposedly scientific material on topic (e.g. IIT)
2014-08-26 13:43 <whitequa1k> wpwrak: exactly for "running"
2014-08-26 13:46 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: you may find this more pleasant reading :) http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/42/42501/1.html
2014-08-26 13:52 <DocScrutinizer05> "Fetrons" LOL
2014-08-26 13:52 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.philipstorr.id.au/radio/eleven/fetron.htm
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