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2014-08-10 00:44 <Luke-Jr> wpwrak: does nouveau actually make a decent GPU out of nvidia stuff? O.o
2014-08-10 00:49 <wpwrak> Luke-Jr: sufficient for what i need. i don't really care about 3D. the occasional STL also renders fast enough in software. but i need my triple-head.
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2014-08-10 02:02 <Luke-Jr> I see.
2014-08-10 02:03 <Luke-Jr> I had the unfortunate realisation recently that Linux is only stable for OpenGL on older GPUs :/
2014-08-10 02:03 <Luke-Jr> both my Intel Haswell and AMD Radeon 7xxx are unstable
2014-08-10 02:04 <Luke-Jr> whereas my previous Sandy Bridge, and before that Radeon (pre-HD) 9200 were stable
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2014-08-10 03:58 <mth> wolfspraul: git commit notification is broken:
2014-08-10 03:58 <mth> remote: PHP Fatal error:  Call to undefined function expect_popen() in /srv/irc/send_irc_lines.php on line 8
2014-08-10 03:58 <mth> the commit itself went through though, so it's not urgent
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2014-08-10 08:29 <wolfspraul> mth: excellent feedback, thank you! I installed libexpect-php5, let's see whether it's better now (haven't tested, just waiting)
2014-08-10 08:30 <mth> how long ago? I pushed some changes 2-3 minutes ago and it didn't work yet then
2014-08-10 08:32 <wolfspraul> hmm
2014-08-10 08:32 <wolfspraul> just before my post
2014-08-10 08:32 <wolfspraul> we may have crossed each other by seconds though, so let's wait for the next one
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2014-08-10 11:29 <qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Created separate subclasses for output and off-screen surfaces (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/4bd1c79
2014-08-10 11:29 <mth> wolfspraul: :)
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2014-08-10 12:22 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 2014-07 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/29ac553
2014-08-10 12:22 <wpwrak> yes, works :)
2014-08-10 12:23 <whitequark> Luke-Jr: huh? Ivy Bridge and GF117M work perfectly for me
2014-08-10 12:32 <qi-bot> [commit] Maarten ter Huurne: Removed most uses of naked Surface pointers (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/60183e5
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2014-08-10 15:05 <ysionneau> whitequark: what do you mean by "decoy law" ?
2014-08-10 15:06 <whitequark> ysionneau: a law to distract public from some other, worse law
2014-08-10 15:06 <ysionneau> wow
2014-08-10 15:06 <ysionneau> so in the end the law about giving passport info to connect to public wifi is dropped?
2014-08-10 15:07 <ysionneau> (sorry I could not read your link
2014-08-10 15:07 <ysionneau> )
2014-08-10 15:07 <whitequark> yes, or rather, transformed into a law about personal information retention
2014-08-10 15:07 <whitequark> for half a year or so
2014-08-10 15:07 <whitequark> that happens like every time you hear about some outrageous law.
2014-08-10 15:07 <ysionneau> and what was the worse law?
2014-08-10 15:08 <whitequark> the SORM real-time intelligence gathering system to be integrated with all social networks operating in RU
2014-08-10 15:08 <ysionneau> wow, is it some DPI stuff thats gathering all metadata?
2014-08-10 15:08 <whitequark> no
2014-08-10 15:09 <whitequark> it means that the social networks must themselves provide all the data the government requests
2014-08-10 15:09 <ysionneau> ak ok
2014-08-10 15:09 <ysionneau> direct access to their database
2014-08-10 15:09 <whitequark> there's no need to subvert https and so on, because it works at the endpoint
2014-08-10 15:09 <whitequark> sorta
2014-08-10 15:09 <whitequark> and I bet they will use it for grep for keywords like "protest".
2014-08-10 15:09 <ysionneau> so you don't see live tchat for instance but you can read the logs afterward
2014-08-10 15:09 <whitequark> no, you do see live chat, that's the whole point of SORM
2014-08-10 15:10 <whitequark> earlier generations of SORM are basically the lawful intercept interface for cellular and landline
2014-08-10 15:10 <whitequark> so now they extend this to social networks
2014-08-10 15:10 <ysionneau> wow ok
2014-08-10 15:10 <ysionneau> so they access to database data *and* do live intercept
2014-08-10 15:10 <ysionneau> crazy :(
2014-08-10 15:10 <ysionneau> I guess USA is doing the same though
2014-08-10 15:11 <whitequark> well
2014-08-10 15:11 <whitequark> it's hard to say
2014-08-10 15:12 <whitequark> the Snowden documents said "yes", but NSA was using essentially illegal methods, i.e. fiber optic interception
2014-08-10 15:12 <whitequark> since then Google and others have started treating it as an adversary, and that probably doesn't work
2014-08-10 15:12 <whitequark> but we wouldn't know whether there are some secret court orders equivalent to what happens in RU, for some times
2014-08-10 15:13 <ysionneau> at least, as I understood, it is mandatory for US companies (google, amazon, facebook etc) to allow access to authorities to their database
2014-08-10 15:14 <ysionneau> I guess that for that to be lawful it must be during an investigation
2014-08-10 15:14 <ysionneau> prosecution or something
2014-08-10 15:14 <ysionneau> but they can ask for access or for informations
2014-08-10 15:15 <whitequark> yes, but that's supposed to happen like this: government submits a subpoena, company X responds with data
2014-08-10 15:15 <whitequark> this is not supposed to give the government direct access to database
2014-08-10 15:16 <whitequark> and I think not live intercept too
2014-08-10 15:16 <ysionneau> yes ok agreed
2014-08-10 15:57 <kyak> how about that: company X reads all data, finds suspicious activity and reports it to the government?
2014-08-10 15:57 <whitequark> hm?
2014-08-10 15:57 <kyak> oh, that already happened, didn't it?
2014-08-10 15:57 <whitequark> what are you talking about?
2014-08-10 15:58 <kyak> http://habrahabr.ru/post/232359/
2014-08-10 15:58 <kyak> about this
2014-08-10 15:58 <kyak> i'm just wondering when are you going to stop talking about "this contry"
2014-08-10 15:59 <kyak> have a look around, see the same shit everywhere, and relax
2014-08-10 15:59 <whitequark> kyak: oh fuck off, the fact that everyone does something doesn't mean that doing it is right
2014-08-10 16:00 <kyak> yeah, but your endless rants …
2014-08-10 16:00 <whitequark>  /ignore or /part.
2014-08-10 16:03 <kyak> i've chosen the first one (and i'm not talking about IRC). It seems that you're biasing to the second options, good :)
2014-08-10 16:03 <kyak> i'm talking about "this country", just in case..
2014-08-10 16:04 <whitequark> it's not like my endless rants are going to stop just because I move, because, as you aptly noticed, the same shit is everywhere
2014-08-10 16:04 <kyak> that's quite true, i suppose
2014-08-10 16:05 <kyak> so you'll be ranting about country's Y bitch government
2014-08-10 16:07 <DocScrutinizer51> kyak seems to be pretty touchy in general when somenody critizises "his country"
2014-08-10 16:12 <kyak> no, more when someone talks trash
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2014-08-10 16:12 <whitequark> I don't exactly consider Google a model internet company
2014-08-10 16:13 <sb0> +1
2014-08-10 16:13 <whitequark> so I don't know what your point is.
2014-08-10 16:14 <DocScrutinizer51> whitequark: kyak's point is he owns ultimate truth
2014-08-10 16:15 <kyak> ah fuck it.
2014-08-10 16:16 <whitequark> kyak: if you think that a legislative process where Duma (or congress, for that matter) deliberately introduces decoy laws to divert public attention from some unconstitutional law they're trying to pass in meantime is a-ok
2014-08-10 16:16 <whitequark> I don't know what to say to you
2014-08-10 16:16 <DocScrutinizer51> and when tou do, you of course don't even bother to question if what you got is what been said
2014-08-10 16:19 <whitequark> exactly who of those three hundred pigfuckers represents *me*? I'll answer, zero
2014-08-10 16:19 <kyak> whitequark: yeah, that's pretty ok. Because even if every individual himself is smart, the large group of individuals, or society, is not
2014-08-10 16:20 <whitequark> should I remind you who is supposed to be a public servant?
2014-08-10 16:20 <whitequark> and not the other way around
2014-08-10 16:20 <kyak> i agree with your last point
2014-08-10 16:20 <kyak> and your very last point :)
2014-08-10 16:21 <kyak> but it doesn't change the fact that society needs to be controllable
2014-08-10 16:21 <kyak> even if it's controlled by 300 pigs
2014-08-10 16:21 <whitequark> I don't think that is necessarily true
2014-08-10 16:22 <kyak> or 1 pig, for what atters
2014-08-10 16:22 <DocScrutinizer51> now *I* smell rubbish being told
2014-08-10 16:23 <whitequark> but even *if* what you say is true, the legislative process I'm speaking about is, simply, lying to those you are supposed to serve
2014-08-10 16:23 <whitequark> it is an attempt to break the feedback loop that should keep them in check
2014-08-10 16:23 <whitequark> or are you advocating for absolute monarchy?
2014-08-10 16:24 <kyak> hm, what feedback loop? Are we at the point of "shared knowledge" between people?
2014-08-10 16:25 <kyak> Like, the society is able to "collect" "coordinated" feedback and pass it back to legislation?
2014-08-10 16:25 <whitequark> yes. yes, it does.
2014-08-10 16:26 <kyak> oh, ok.. talk about it with some redneck from CHelyabinsk
2014-08-10 16:26 <kyak> he will have many ideas how to improve the state
2014-08-10 16:27 <whitequark> and I would
2014-08-10 16:27 <kyak> the monarchy.. not necessarilly, if responsibility is clearly defined
2014-08-10 16:28 <DocScrutinizer51> ok now this is definitely TOO much, particularly for somebody bashing others for 'talking bullshit'
2014-08-10 16:35 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer51: change of topic. I made https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BunwbGSCQAAOKje.jpg:large yesterday
2014-08-10 16:36 <DocScrutinizer51> sorry, roaming on phone
2014-08-10 16:36 <whitequark> aww
2014-08-10 16:37 <DocScrutinizer51> is it worth the load time and data fees to try and open it on a 3" screen?
2014-08-10 16:37 <whitequark> it's 117K
2014-08-10 16:37 <whitequark> it's a picture of a companion cube I tried to machine out of Al
2014-08-10 16:37 <DocScrutinizer51> loading
2014-08-10 16:38 <whitequark> it kinda went poor
2014-08-10 16:38 <DocScrutinizer51> loading
2014-08-10 16:39 <DocScrutinizer51> loading
2014-08-10 16:39 <DocScrutinizer51> aborting that
2014-08-10 16:40 <whitequark> okay
2014-08-10 16:40 <DocScrutinizer51> think it got the complete pic at least
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2014-08-10 16:40 <DocScrutinizer51> nice
2014-08-10 16:40 <whitequark> I really shouldn't have used X/Y finish pass on this geometry
2014-08-10 16:41 <whitequark> should have went with only waterline and pencil
2014-08-10 16:41 <whitequark> and I don't understand one thing mainly, I have a script that measures the cube with a probe
2014-08-10 16:41 <whitequark> it says the cube is 26 by 27.2mm, but in reality it is 24 by 24 mm
2014-08-10 16:41 <whitequark> and I can't find the error anywhere: mechanics, electronics, software
2014-08-10 16:42 <whitequark> I also think the coordinates of holes I drill in PCBs are off, but not by a whole two millimeters! so even when I may see distortion, it doesn't match what I measure
2014-08-10 16:43 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer51: based on that cube, I can 100% rule out missing steps on either slow or rapid movements
2014-08-10 16:43 <whitequark> that would absolutely butcher the waterline pass
2014-08-10 16:43 <whitequark> but all the "layers" align with each other
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2014-08-10 17:56 <fmeerkoetter> I didn't fully grok http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_WPAN - is it currently possible to buy ATUSB devices?
2014-08-10 18:58 <wpwrak> fmeerkoetter: unfortunately not. the units produced by tuxbrain sold out.
2014-08-10 18:59 <wpwrak> but maybe check on the mailing list. if you're looking for a small number, maybe someone still has some
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2014-08-10 19:13 <fmeerkoetter> wpwrak: thanks
2014-08-10 19:14 <fmeerkoetter> wpwrak: do you have an idea about other hardware options? preferably attached over USB?
2014-08-10 19:17 <eintopf> fmeerkoetter: you are the guy on linux-zigbee-devel?
2014-08-10 19:18 <eintopf> ah
2014-08-10 19:18 <fmeerkoetter> eintopf: yes :-)
2014-08-10 19:19 <eintopf> there exist a new one, but this is maybe too new
2014-08-10 19:19 <wpwrak> fmeerkoetter: there are a few pointers in this post, though none look very promising: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2014-April/010593.html
2014-08-10 19:19 <eintopf> http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#linux-wpan
2014-08-10 19:19 <eintopf> i need to update the sf site
2014-08-10 19:19 <fmeerkoetter> i am trying to wrap my head around the whole 802.14.5/6lowpan/coap/mqtt thing by just getting me feet wet.
2014-08-10 19:19 <fmeerkoetter> wpwrak, eintopf: thanks
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2014-08-10 19:20 <eintopf> wpwrak: maybe we can do something really cool... implement serial v2 protocol for contiki devices
2014-08-10 19:20 <wpwrak> if you're able to make circuits, you could of course make your own atusb. all the design files are open ...
2014-08-10 19:21 <wpwrak> eintopf: blargh ;-)
2014-08-10 19:21 <eintopf> wpwrak: this will increase the users of this stack, i am really sure
2014-08-10 19:21 <eintopf> maybe I can do this at my university
2014-08-10 19:22 <fmeerkoetter> hmm, perhaps I should try to go with one of the SPI-attached devices for which i saw a driver in mainline linux
2014-08-10 19:22 <fmeerkoetter> ?
2014-08-10 19:22 <eintopf> but I don't know if contiki accept an app mainline which is for not using contiki anymore :)
2014-08-10 19:23 <eintopf> fmeerkoetter: best supported driver is at86rf230
2014-08-10 19:23 <eintopf> should work for all at86rf2xx chips :/
2014-08-10 19:25 <fmeerkoetter> eintopf: hmm, mouser, digikey and farnell tell me its out of stock :-/
2014-08-10 19:25 <eintopf> :o
2014-08-10 19:26 <eintopf> they putting to much 802.15.4 chips into things...
2014-08-10 19:26 <fmeerkoetter> sounds like the intended use case ;-)
2014-08-10 19:26 <fmeerkoetter> putting it into "things"
2014-08-10 19:29 <eintopf> fmeerkoetter: but the stack implementation is currently "experimental" I don't want to make you hope that you can do all use cases
2014-08-10 19:32 <fmeerkoetter> eintopf: which stack? the 802.15.4 or the 6lowpan side?
2014-08-10 19:33 <eintopf> both
2014-08-10 19:33 <fmeerkoetter> :-)
2014-08-10 19:34 <eintopf> if you want to use libcoap in userspace, maybe you need this http://git.pengutronix.de/?p=ptxdist.git;a=tree;f=patches/libcoap-4.1.1
2014-08-10 19:35 <eintopf> makes the libcoap more friendly for linux system install. They doing crazy buildsystem things there
2014-08-10 19:35 <eintopf> and they don't want my patches
2014-08-10 19:36 <eintopf> http://git.pengutronix.de/?p=ptxdist.git;a=blob;f=patches/libcoap-4.1.1/0004-libcoap-add-LIBCOAP_-prefix-to-HAVE_-in-headers.patch
2014-08-10 19:36 <eintopf> they put HAVE_XXX from autoconf in API headers
2014-08-10 19:36 <eintopf> that's purely unusable
2014-08-10 19:36 <fmeerkoetter> *meh*
2014-08-10 19:38 <eintopf> I have insert a maintainable workaround for this
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2014-08-10 20:23 <whitequark> it occured to me I could put a ballpoint pen into my CNC mill. https://i.imgur.com/XsOYPIJ.jpg
2014-08-10 20:29 <roh> hrhr
2014-08-10 20:29 <whitequark> the sounds the steppers produce are hideous though
2014-08-10 20:31 <roh> nice mill
2014-08-10 20:31 <whitequark> roh: why nice?
2014-08-10 20:32 <whitequark> I was actually doing a test to figure out why exactly is there a distortion that messes up my PCBs
2014-08-10 20:32 <whitequark> it seems I *at least* don't have missing steps
2014-08-10 20:37 <roh> whitequark: cable guides are there and look fine
2014-08-10 20:38 <roh> thats usually a sign of a non-dead-cheap-low-end device ;)
2014-08-10 20:38 <whitequark> roh: ooooh, I see
2014-08-10 20:38 <roh> and you got a real t-nut table for clamping stuff down...
2014-08-10 20:38 <whitequark> roh: you have really low expectation
2014-08-10 20:38 <roh> the spindle looks like some er16 ?
2014-08-10 20:39 <whitequark> ER11 collets
2014-08-10 20:39 <roh> whitequark: i've seen too many low end devices propably ;)
2014-08-10 20:39 <roh> ah. so small. well.. i guess its more rpm then?
2014-08-10 20:39 <whitequark> it's 200W
2014-08-10 20:39 <whitequark> and up to 18krpm
2014-08-10 20:39 <roh> what sw toolchain do you use?
2014-08-10 20:40 <whitequark> EMC2 for control
2014-08-10 20:40 <roh> our issue is the stl/model -> gcode for emc2 step... no nice 'readymade' software yet
2014-08-10 20:40 <whitequark> for generation: 1) handwritten gcode (EMC2 allows pretty advanced stuff like loops and procedures), 2) inkscape's gcodetools 3) eagle pcb-gcode
2014-08-10 20:40 <roh> we have emc2 too :) .. on a old 8.04 ubuntu
2014-08-10 20:40 <whitequark> I also used meshcam for https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BunwbGSCQAAOKje.jpg:large
2014-08-10 20:41 <whitequark> roh: I have some unfinished code for a FOSS CAM processor that can do constant TEA
2014-08-10 20:41 <roh> we played around with heekscad and heekscam some time ago
2014-08-10 20:41 <whitequark> yep, played with it too
2014-08-10 20:42 <whitequark> heekscad is even less usable than freecad, which is an impressive feat
2014-08-10 20:42 <whitequark> no Ctrl+Z, random crashes, randomly doesn't work
2014-08-10 20:42 <roh> and there are 'parts' of a cam suite flying around in lib form. whats missing is a comprehensive tool to 'load model, configure mill, tools and process, render gcode'
2014-08-10 20:42 <whitequark> roh: I've seen these 'parts'
2014-08-10 20:42 <whitequark> you probably mean libarea
2014-08-10 20:42 <whitequark> that's what I was going to base my code on
2014-08-10 20:42 <roh> also, yes. also the others heekscam uses
2014-08-10 20:43 <whitequark> I'll probably have more time for that once I relocate
2014-08-10 20:44 <whitequark> roh: any advice for milling aluminium on tiny mills?
2014-08-10 20:44 <whitequark> I have really horrible tool chatter issues
2014-08-10 20:44 <whitequark> once I sat there for a hour and my eyes hurt for a day (!)
2014-08-10 20:44 <whitequark> THAT is how bad it is
2014-08-10 20:44 <whitequark> ears*
2014-08-10 20:44 <roh> libkurve, actp....
2014-08-10 20:45 <whitequark> roh: last time I checked, it doesn't actually use libkurve or actp (?)
2014-08-10 20:45 <whitequark> I mean, it simply doesn't refer to them from generated python script
2014-08-10 20:45 <whitequark> seemed weird to me
2014-08-10 20:45 <roh> hmmm.. cool it with 50/50 destilled water/alcohol
2014-08-10 20:45 <roh> or pressured air and some cutting oil mist
2014-08-10 20:45 <whitequark> as far as I understand, it slices the model inside heekscad and then puts the slices inside python code
2014-08-10 20:46 <whitequark> roh: hm, I have a thing set up that puts a stream of liquid there, yes
2014-08-10 20:46 <whitequark> was thinking of trying it next
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> whitequark: it uses different libs depending on the 'things' you use
2014-08-10 20:46 <whitequark> roh: the problem is my fixture is made out of wood, so it warps
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> pocket vs waterline etc
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> eek
2014-08-10 20:46 <whitequark> yes.
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> yep.. building proper fixtures is half the job
2014-08-10 20:46 <whitequark> I already found it out, yeah, the hard way :D
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> i learned that the hard way...
2014-08-10 20:46 <Luke-Jr> whitequark: Ivy Bridge is not Haswell
2014-08-10 20:46 <roh> :)
2014-08-10 20:47 <whitequark> Luke-Jr: if Ivy Bridge is your definition of "old", I have news for you ;D
2014-08-10 20:47 <Luke-Jr> GF117M is nvideous. wpwrak implied nouveau is only sufficient for 2D
2014-08-10 20:47 <roh> whitequark: heekscam does 'write a python script' which you then execute, and parse back the resulting gcode to some xml intermediate and then display it as lines
2014-08-10 20:48 <whitequark> roh: I think it actually puts out the file with lines along with the gcode
2014-08-10 20:48 <roh> the executing uses the libs via their python interfaces (the libs are c++)
2014-08-10 20:48 <whitequark> maybe we're talking about different versions?
2014-08-10 20:48 <roh> whitequark: it didnt when i built packages some years ago
2014-08-10 20:48 <roh> maybe
2014-08-10 20:49 <roh> the xml was also a 'hidden' temp file
2014-08-10 20:51 <wpwrak> Luke-Jr: i didn't say that. it's just that i don't really care about 3D. so i don't even know how good nouveau is at it :)
2014-08-10 20:51 <Luke-Jr> wpwrak: I see.
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2014-08-10 20:52 <whitequark> roh: why alcohol and not water?
2014-08-10 20:52 <whitequark> is there any difference?
2014-08-10 20:52 <roh> whitequark: surface tension
2014-08-10 20:52 <whitequark> oh
2014-08-10 20:53 <whitequark> think water+surfactant would work?
2014-08-10 20:53 <whitequark> tap water is cheaper than vodka
2014-08-10 20:53 <roh> and 50/50 so make it less flammable
2014-08-10 20:53 <roh> i dunno all the details.. but the short version is: you dont want to put just water on there because of rust
2014-08-10 20:53 <whitequark> oh, but my frame is made out of Al
2014-08-10 20:53 <whitequark> and I replaced the screws with stainless steel ones
2014-08-10 20:54 <roh> but there are whole sections in books about cooling when milling. flood, mist and all the coolants and their mixes
2014-08-10 20:54 <whitequark> I've seen some book from 1920
2014-08-10 20:54 <whitequark> it recommended using milk (!!)
2014-08-10 20:54 <whitequark> among other things
2014-08-10 20:54 <roh> milling milk is not milk
2014-08-10 20:55 <roh> its a special mix of oils and some stuff to make oil thinnable by water
2014-08-10 20:55 <whitequark> oh
2014-08-10 20:55 <whitequark> that would explain a few things
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